Trickflow H/C/I vs. AFR setup

88GT460 · Nov 25, 2005

King Cobra 22 said:
I have driven a 00 Z28 auto and wasn't that impressed.I went full throttle from like 0-60 and another from 40-70mph and it didn't fell like it had much pull.The speedometer definetly moved though.
So to me it didn't feel fast but the way the speedometer moved it was moving pretty fast.

I know this won't make sense but I have also driven an 03 Mach 1 auto and that thing felt like it had alot more pull low end then the LS1 Z28.

Maybe something was wrong with the Z28 but I doubt it... It was a 00 and had low miles on it.

As far as me vs. an LS1.If I ever had to race run on the street it would end up being a roll race anywhere from 25-45mph to 70-90mph.I rarely drive on the HWY so I won't have to worry about that and it's hard to line up from a stop against a worthy opponet if you know what I mean.

So I should be outpowered by what 10-30 HP?
How about TQ.How much more TQ would an LS1 have over me?

Yes, but a $400 pair of gears on an LS1 will ruin your day.

Black95GTS · Nov 25, 2005

King Cobra 22 said:
I have driven a 00 Z28 auto and wasn't that impressed.I went full throttle from like 0-60 and another from 40-70mph and it didn't fell like it had much pull.The speedometer definetly moved though.
So to me it didn't feel fast but the way the speedometer moved it was moving pretty fast.

I know this won't make sense but I have also driven an 03 Mach 1 auto and that thing felt like it had alot more pull low end then the LS1 Z28.

Maybe something was wrong with the Z28 but I doubt it... It was a 00 and had low miles on it.

As far as me vs. an LS1.If I ever had to race run on the street it would end up being a roll race anywhere from 25-45mph to 70-90mph.I rarely drive on the HWY so I won't have to worry about that and it's hard to line up from a stop against a worthy opponet if you know what I mean.

So I should be outpowered by what 10-30 HP?
How about TQ.How much more TQ would an LS1 have over me?

It's not the peak trq or hp that you need to worry about, you're not going to race his dyno. Its useable HP and TRQ that wins the race. Take your Hp or Trq curve, integrate them across RPMs... the car with the larger area under the curve is the faster car, especially in a short jaunt like the 1/4 mile.

Whats the difference between a 300HP Supra and a 500HP Supra? Maybe 1/2 a second. Peak numbers sound cool in magazine articles, but don't mean jack in a race.

:Track:

King Cobra 22 · Nov 25, 2005

Black95GTS said:
It's not the peak trq or hp that you need to worry about, you're not going to race his dyno. Its useable HP and TRQ that wins the race. Take your Hp or Trq curve, integrate them across RPMs... the car with the larger area under the curve is the faster car, especially in a short jaunt like the 1/4 mile.

Whats the difference between a 300HP Supra and a 500HP Supra? Maybe 1/2 a second. Peak numbers sound cool in magazine articles, but don't mean jack in a race.

:Track:

Thanks.Now I have a better understanding.

So one car can make more peak hp and tq numbers but if the other has a better HP and TQ curve then he has the advantage?

King Cobra 22 · Nov 25, 2005

88GT460 said:
Yes, but a $400 pair of gears on an LS1 will ruin your day.

Then that is when it is time to spray some giggle gas

5spd GT · Nov 25, 2005

Trap speeds on the h/c/i 5.0L above and a stock ls1 will be very similar. Compare an AODE 5.0L to a 4l60e ls1 and you will get similar traps. About 106mph or so.

I trap higher than stock ls1's. My car is a t5 and does have a race weight of 3400lbs though.

A properly setup h/c/i will beat an ls1 down low and up top. Closer up top of course.

final5-0 · Nov 25, 2005

Black95GTS said:
It's not the peak trq or hp that you need to worry about, you're not going to race his dyno. Its useable HP and TRQ that wins the race. Take your Hp or Trq curve, integrate them across RPMs... the car with the larger area under the curve is the faster car, especially in a short jaunt like the 1/4 mile.

Whats the difference between a 300HP Supra and a 500HP Supra? Maybe 1/2 a second. Peak numbers sound cool in magazine articles, but don't mean jack in a race.

:Track:

Here is a picture to help show what Adam is trying to get across here.

My Combo vrs Modded stick 05

Notice the hp is about the same.

Look at the torque curve to see what Adam is talking about.

Grady

final5-0 · Nov 25, 2005

King

I have the numerical dyno values from a stock auto 05 I could throw in my Excell dyno compare file for you to look at but .......................

My stick next to the 05 auto is not an apples to apples compairson.

Here is a better idea yet!

If you or anybody else has the numerical dyno values from a TFS h/c/i kit with an auto trans and will post them up here .......................

I'd be happy to load em in the file and post the compairson up between that combo and the auto 05 for all to see how they stack up to each other.

Grady

King Cobra 22 · Nov 25, 2005

final5-0 said:
King

I have the numerical dyno values from a stock auto 05 I could throw in my Excell dyno compare file for you to look at but .......................

My stick next to the 05 auto is not an apples to apples compairson.

Here is a better idea yet!

If you or anybody else has the numerical dyno values from a TFS h/c/i kit with an auto trans and will post them up here .......................

I'd be happy to load em in the file and post the compairson up between that combo and the auto 05 for all to see how they stack up to each other.

Grady

Yes, that would be awesome!
The only thing is I don't have/ know of any dynographs of a H/C/I auto gt.

If anyone knows or has a dynograph of a H/C/I auto gt could you please post it.

I perfer the trickflow kit but if you have another H/C/I that would be fine I guess.

Killercanary · Nov 25, 2005

Onebad95 may have some old H/C/I cyno numbers from his AFR/FTI/Edelbrock setup in his NA 95 'vert. I think he put down 283rwhp, but I'm not certain. I know he ran a 12.9 at 105 on his one and only pass at the track with that combo.

As was said peak doesn't mean a whole lot. The car with the most power in their "usable power range" or the power in the RPM's the car is in each gear going down the track will be the quicker car given similar weight and aerodynamics.

final5-0 · Nov 25, 2005

Well King

I know my combo is not TFS based but I did remember I had a dyno pull of a stock stick 05 in a mag several months back so here is my stick combo vrs that stick combo.

At least the trans type will not be any kind of factor

Maybe that will give you a ball park idea

Don't forget my combo puts up lower numbers than what you can expect cause I was using some stock parts and pegging the stock maf a bit

Grady

King Cobra 22 · Nov 25, 2005

final5-0 said:
Well King

I know my combo is not TFS based but I did remember I had a dyno pull of a stock stick 05 in a mag several months back so here is my stick combo vrs that stick combo.

At least the trans type will not be any kind of factor

Maybe that will give you a ball park idea

Thanks! that was very helpful.

So that is somewhat how it would be if we were to compare an auto H/C/I 5.0 to an 05 GT auto right?

AaronC · Nov 25, 2005

Here's a link to my dyno graph of the 306 I had. AFR heads/Performer intake/HiTech Motorsport custom cam

http://www.californiafords.com/cgi-...ORNIAFORDS.COM/dyno/aaron_mike/aaron_dyno.jpg

vid too:
http://www.californiafords.com/cgi-bin/album.pl?album=VIDEOS/06_00_02

final5-0 · Nov 26, 2005

King Cobra 22 said:
Thanks! that was very helpful.

So that is somewhat how it would be if we were to compare an auto H/C/I 5.0 to an 05 GT auto right?

OK King ... More stuff that may or may not help a bit

I hope some auto trans peeps will get more involved in your thread for more valid facts than the general info I have provided for you here.

I guess you've seen my sig and can guess my focus is on stick combos.
I rarely invest any time with an auto equipped combo as its just not revelant to what I'm doing. I don't have any data that can accurately help in this case but I did want to try and help you get some kind of idea about what to expect.

however

I got to thinking more about what your asking so here is yet another comparo that really gets your attention as to the difference between a stock 05 stick & auto.

I was surprised to say the least!

45 to 50lbs through the mid range

I knew there would be some difference but ...... DAM

I have to wonder if there is a mod to make to the auto trans that could recover some of that lost torque

Anyway here is the pic!

Grady

King Cobra 22 · Nov 26, 2005

Wow! What a difference.

Mustangless · Nov 26, 2005

94GTLaserRC

I think you and I are on good enough terms that we dont take a comment as a , unless we actually call the other an A$$hole!

Losses: Went from 189HP/249TQ to 203/278 with the Converter alone...7% increase in HP from one mod.(and the stall was for the Blower, and the Blower wasnt on yet)

Usually 20-25% losses on stock AODE, 10-15% on Manual...The 7% gets me closer, but also allows me to launch at higher RPM.

http://forums.stangnet.com/showthread.php?t=392160&highlight=converter

One way to free up some power with an auto is a converter.

final5-0 · Nov 26, 2005

King Cobra 22 said:
Wow! What a difference.

I was very surprised myself!

I got the values on each car from two different mag articles.

Double checked all the values when I saw the differernces as well.

I have no reason to believe the data is not valid

Grady

Black95GTS · Nov 26, 2005

final5-0 said:
Here is a picture to help show what Adam is trying to get across here.

My Combo vrs Modded stick 05

Notice the hp is about the same.

Look at the torque curve to see what Adam is talking about.

Grady

Thanks Grady, good pics! Believe it or not I still have never (don't even know how!) posted a pic on here.

This is a good thread.:SNSign: I guess to summarize, especially if you are more concerned with a street race, area under the curve with a lower peak will beat less area with a higher peak. When you're crusing at 40 mph at 2200 rpms and all of a sudden step on it, its the car with the broader power curve that will pull faster and harder without have to wait for the RPMs to climb.

Adam

King Cobra 22 · Nov 26, 2005

Hey Grady, I have been searching in the SVTPerformance dyno section for some dyno charts.
I have also been looking through LS1tech dyno section.
I was wondering If I were to find a dynograph that was posted up there.. if there would be any way you could compare them to your dyno or the 05 gt dyno.

I was looking at a few stock A4 ls1 dyno's and most of them seem to dyno 280-290 rwhp and the M6 dyno 300+ stock. I just wanted to see how the hp and tq curve throughout the power band would be compared to a H/C/I mustang like yours.

Is there anyway of doing this?

final5-0 · Nov 27, 2005

King Cobra 22 said:
Hey Grady, I have been searching in the SVTPerformance dyno section for some dyno charts.
I have also been looking through LS1tech dyno section.
I was wondering If I were to find a dynograph that was posted up there.. if there would be any way you could compare them to your dyno or the 05 gt dyno.

I was looking at a few stock A4 ls1 dyno's and most of them seem to dyno 280-290 rwhp and the M6 dyno 300+ stock. I just wanted to see how the hp and tq curve throughout the power band would be compared to a H/C/I mustang like yours.

Is there anyway of doing this?

Check your pm box

Grady

87pony · Mar 30, 2006

if you are talkin stock ls1 i thinkyou will get him pretty easily. i hang right withan ss and i have smaller heads and 3.73s

Trickflow H/C/I vs. AFR setup

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