Turbo Build

[bentley429isBAC]

Don't be afraid to boost a stock bottom end. I ran mine for 4 years with stock rods pistons and crank just freshened up. Made 480 with a blower in the heat and I am sure much more then that with the turbo at 18 psi. Didn't break, just pulled out the head studs. I overtightened them mulipul times and the threads couldn't take it.

 

[MY 85 GT]

Mine right now is seeing 19 psi...i do run meth injection and its a little on the fat side thinking thats whats holding it together.....lol

 

[stangboy]

Stock block will put up with around 450rwhp-500rwhp. I wouldn't push it to the high end if i were you, especially if you are going to drive this thing hard.

Aluminum blocks are nice and all, but you are talking about a serious amount of money for the block alone. By the time you build the shortblock you will have spent your entire 7 grand.

If you are going with a turbo on a stock block stroker, a turbo will serve little to no purpose. You can get 400-425rwhp out of a 347. Not sure thousands of bucks to get another 50rwhp will be worth it.

Here's my opinion, either use the shortblock you have now (not sure what condition you said it was in, if you need another shortblock use and explorer engine), Add some TW's, with a good cam and intake. Drive it around and have some fun, while you build yourself a stroker. Then go from there. You have to walk before you can run. You don't know where your life or finances will be in 2 years and you don't want to be just another jackass that fails to meet their goals and has a pile of worthless junk in their driveway.
The TW's are good because they can be Cnc'ed to work better on a stroker in the future.

Too many guys come here with these big plans. Most disappear and never finish. Set some obtainable goals and grow with the car. You don't need to go from 200rwhp to 500rwhp. These cars are way lighter than a new car, 325rwhp is quite a bit of power in a fox.

To build an all around effective 500rwhp fox, it takes 15-20 grand. Suspension, rear, trans, this crap adds up. Get it going with the HCI then move on to rest of the car. When the rest is done, come back to the engine.

Yeah, what he said.^^^

 

[Noobz347]

Shouldn't be afraid to boost a stock block. It is VERY difficult to get the stock block to max power without a power adder of some sort.

It can be done N/A but in most circumstances those motors are nearly undrivable on the street.

Boost the crap out it... Just use some sense and put it in the safe zone.

IMO, screw type blowers are the way to go with a stock block. You can reach 450+ HP pretty easily and your ENTIRE torque curve looks like a shelf that you can put books on from just off idle.

The only downside to my plan is that there are very few intercooled solutions for a Windsor. Water/meth is best way to cure these issues but many of the offerings have reservoirs that are just to small (also an easy fix).

The difference is night an day and you don't ever have to wait to build boost. It's a great package given the limitations of the block itself.

 

[Mr. Rustypwnz]

Shouldn't be afraid to boost a stock block. It is VERY difficult to get the stock block to max power without a power adder of some sort.

It can be done N/A but in most circumstances those motors are nearly undrivable on the street.

Boost the crap out it... Just use some sense and put it in the safe zone.

IMO, screw type blowers are the way to go with a stock block. You can reach 450+ HP pretty easily and your ENTIRE torque curve looks like a shelf that you can put books on from just off idle.

The only downside to my plan is that there are very few intercooled solutions for a Windsor. Water/meth is best way to cure these issues but many of the offerings have reservoirs that are just to small (also an easy fix).

The difference is night an day and you don't ever have to wait to build boost. It's a great package given the limitations of the block itself.

With the right turbo there is very little lag, top end charge will be much more fun as well.

 

[Noobz347]

With the right turbo there is very little lag, top end charge will be much more fun as well.

I keep hearing that and turbos have come a long way in recent years but I've never been in one that was comparable. Twin screws really are like having just a much larger motor.

I think my next project will be a turbo though. The lack of an inter/after-cooler is a big limitation unless someone wants to do a ton of fabrication.

 

[FastDriver]

Stock block will put up with around 450rwhp-500rwhp. I wouldn't push it to the high end if i were you, especially if you are going to drive this thing hard.

Aluminum blocks are nice and all, but you are talking about a serious amount of money for the block alone. By the time you build the shortblock you will have spent your entire 7 grand.

If you are going with a turbo on a stock block stroker, a turbo will serve little to no purpose. You can get 400-425rwhp out of a 347. Not sure thousands of bucks to get another 50rwhp will be worth it.

Here's my opinion, either use the shortblock you have now (not sure what condition you said it was in, if you need another shortblock use and explorer engine), Add some TW's, with a good cam and intake. Drive it around and have some fun, while you build yourself a stroker. Then go from there. You have to walk before you can run. You don't know where your life or finances will be in 2 years and you don't want to be just another jackass that fails to meet their goals and has a pile of worthless junk in their driveway.
The TW's are good because they can be Cnc'ed to work better on a stroker in the future.

Too many guys come here with these big plans. Most disappear and never finish. Set some obtainable goals and grow with the car. You don't need to go from 200rwhp to 500rwhp. These cars are way lighter than a new car, 325rwhp is quite a bit of power in a fox.

To build an all around effective 500rwhp fox, it takes 15-20 grand. Suspension, rear, trans, this crap adds up. Get it going with the HCI then move on to rest of the car. When the rest is done, come back to the engine.

I agree with all except the 15-20 grand part for 500 on a stock blocked streeter. I'm probably out of touch with prices, but here's my best half-asssed shot (feel free to add to and/or correct):
Heads $1,500
Cam - $350
Intake - $500
Turbo - $2,500 (70mm for $500 + $1,500-$2k for parts & fab or $4k kit)
TKO - $2,000
Clutch - $500
Shifter - $200
Scattershield (bellhousing) - $200
Driveshaft safety loop - $100
Gears installed - $500
MAF, TB, Injectors, rockers, pullies, adjustable fuel regulator - $1,000
colder plugs, wires, distributor cap, fuel filter - $200
EEC Tune - $500
MSD Box + coil - $500
Torque box reinforcements - $500
springs, shocks, LCA/UCAs (not a wild suspension, but good enough for a streeter) - $800 (?)
Fuel pump + inline and boost-a-pump $350
Gauges - $500 (boost, fuel pressure, shift light)
Drag Radials - $400 (200 a tire?)

That's $12,250 for the parts I would want to do it right. So actually quite a bit more than I expected, but I'll post it anyway. Then again, I think that's all premium stuff purchased at mostly new. Could probably cut the part costs in half buying used stuff, though.

 

[FastDriver]

I keep hearing that and turbos have come a long way in recent years but I've never been in one that was comparable. Twin screws really are like having just a much larger motor.

I think my next project will be a turbo though. The lack of an inter/after-cooler is a big limitation unless someone wants to do a ton of fabrication.

Not sure what you're referring to. Sure the twin screws have a crazy bottom and instantaneous response. If that's what you mean by saying it's like a larger motor, then I'm with you. Turbos are obviously peaky by comparison. Turbos are definitely and significantly stronger up top when sized for a given boost pressure on a given engine, though. At least, I've never seen any blower make more than a respectably efficient turbo in a same engine/same boost comparison. Actually, the tests I've seen aren't even close.

I mean, if you're comparing a 500rwhp Twin-screwed (TS) mustangs against a 500rwhp turbo mustang, I would assume that the top end will be equal. However, it would still be an interesting because I'm not sure which would have the higher torque peak. We know the TS would have the advantage off idle, but if the turbo keeps the RPM higher than the boost threshold, it'll get to peak boost within a second of WOT, and what happens after that would be interesting to see. That said, I feel pretty confident that a 500rwhp turbo 302 would be less likely to split than the 500rwhp TS 302. The TS302 is really putting more HP through the block and crank to offset the parasitic loss. The block stress would be equivalent to an N/A 302 with rwhp equal to 500 + parasitic loss. Not sure if that description is understandable.

 

[bentley429isBAC]

I agree with all except the 15-20 grand part for 500 on a stock blocked streeter. I'm probably out of touch with prices, but here's my best half-asssed shot (feel free to add to and/or correct):
Heads $1,500
Cam - $350
Intake - $500
Turbo - $2,500 (70mm for $500 + $1,500-$2k for parts & fab or $4k kit)
TKO - $2,000
Clutch - $500
Shifter - $200
Scattershield (bellhousing) - $200
Driveshaft safety loop - $100
Gears installed - $500
MAF, TB, Injectors, rockers, pullies, adjustable fuel regulator - $1,000
colder plugs, wires, distributor cap, fuel filter - $200
EEC Tune - $500
MSD Box + coil - $500
Torque box reinforcements - $500
springs, shocks, LCA/UCAs (not a wild suspension, but good enough for a streeter) - $800 (?)
Fuel pump + inline and boost-a-pump $350
Gauges - $500 (boost, fuel pressure, shift light)
Drag Radials - $400 (200 a tire?)

That's $12,250 for the parts I would want to do it right. So actually quite a bit more than I expected, but I'll post it anyway. Then again, I think that's all premium stuff purchased at mostly new. Could probably cut the part costs in half buying used stuff, though.

Pretty close. For the budget guy buying some 2nd hand things it can be done for around 7k. Pretty much what I had into mine a few years ago.

 

[2000xp8]

I agree with all except the 15-20 grand part for 500 on a stock blocked streeter. I'm probably out of touch with prices, but here's my best half-asssed shot (feel free to add to and/or correct):
Heads $1,500
Cam - $350
Intake - $500
Turbo - $2,500 (70mm for $500 + $1,500-$2k for parts & fab or $4k kit)
TKO - $2,000
Clutch - $500
Shifter - $200
Scattershield (bellhousing) - $200
Driveshaft safety loop - $100
Gears installed - $500
MAF, TB, Injectors, rockers, pullies, adjustable fuel regulator - $1,000
colder plugs, wires, distributor cap, fuel filter - $200
EEC Tune - $500
MSD Box + coil - $500
Torque box reinforcements - $500
springs, shocks, LCA/UCAs (not a wild suspension, but good enough for a streeter) - $800 (?)
Fuel pump + inline and boost-a-pump $350
Gauges - $500 (boost, fuel pressure, shift light)
Drag Radials - $400 (200 a tire?)

That's $12,250 for the parts I would want to do it right. So actually quite a bit more than I expected, but I'll post it anyway. Then again, I think that's all premium stuff purchased at mostly new. Could probably cut the part costs in half buying used stuff, though.

Decent list, but i still think there is more to it.
The OP wants to build a shortblock, that could 2,000-????
I'd assume the rear needs a full rebuild
Also when you build something to drive like a a-hole, it's going to need brakes, stockers are fine for a couple heavy stops, but any more than that and you are going to land up in someones trunk.
So when you do brakes, you might as well go five lug, now you need new wheels and tires.

If your starting point is a real nice car quality fox, your list could work.
If it's not, you are going to blow right by that number.

My point isn't really about the total itself, it's really about not blowing your entire wad (in this case 7 grand) on the engine. There is so much more to building a great car than just hp.

 

[madspeed]

wow, I guess I 'm lucky only spending 3 grand for my setup

 

[FastDriver]

Excellent counterpoints. And, I was surprised my list ended up as high as it did, honestly. I thought it would be somewhere south of 10k, even with new stuff.

 

[Noobz347]

Not sure what you're referring to. Sure the twin screws have a crazy bottom and instantaneous response. If that's what you mean by saying it's like a larger motor, then I'm with you. Turbos are obviously peaky by comparison. Turbos are definitely and significantly stronger up top when sized for a given boost pressure on a given engine, though. At least, I've never seen any blower make more than a respectably efficient turbo in a same engine/same boost comparison. Actually, the tests I've seen aren't even close.

I mean, if you're comparing a 500rwhp Twin-screwed (TS) mustangs against a 500rwhp turbo mustang, I would assume that the top end will be equal. However, it would still be an interesting because I'm not sure which would have the higher torque peak. We know the TS would have the advantage off idle, but if the turbo keeps the RPM higher than the boost threshold, it'll get to peak boost within a second of WOT, and what happens after that would be interesting to see. That said, I feel pretty confident that a 500rwhp turbo 302 would be less likely to split than the 500rwhp TS 302. The TS302 is really putting more HP through the block and crank to offset the parasitic loss. The block stress would be equivalent to an N/A 302 with rwhp equal to 500 + parasitic loss. Not sure if that description is understandable.

I would hazard to guess that the turbo (one-for-one comparisons taken with a grain of salt) would generally make more peak torque on same-same motors. Torque over the entire range would still be in favor of the screw blower.

...and yes. I was assuming a 500-ish HP peak for both combos.

The 20-ish HP that is required to drive a moderately built long-block I think is mostly offset just by taking a set of shorties and mounting backward on the heads with a down-pipe. To me, this is pretty much a wash unless you're talking about super tight blower belts on an over-tightened, over-spun, Vortech or something similar. Hell... most screw blowers make use of the OEM tensioner. In the scheme of things, that HP from the flywheel is a wash.

Like I mentioned... I'd really like to do a nice turbo build. I'd like to see what a purpose built street setup would be like in direct comparison.

Agreed that overall, the turbo setup will be more gentle on the engine combo. I'm not sure how significant that aspect actually is when the HP ceiling is predetermined.

 

[FastDriver]

Well, I specifically remember a breath-taking difference from a mag article from a long time ago. It was actually a blower comparison article. The same engine was used, and they compared Roots vs. TS vs. centri blowers at the same boost. The centri came out on top peak for peak, but the TS had more under the curve. Then for s and giggles, they put on a Turbo kit (helion if memory serves) and ran a couple lbs less boost through the motor. The difference was staggering. The Turbo came out on top by a gigantic margin - I'm thinking 100-ish hp. The low-end torque once the turbo spooled was off the charts, too. It must have been a MM&FF or 5.0 magazine... probably the former. I'll google it.

It would be interesting to read again, because I'm thinking that the TS blowers back then weren't the big ones they have today. The efficiency of the bigger ones would probably be more appropriate on our motors.

Still, if that article is indicative of the difference in efficiency + parasitic losses, then I think your 20-hp parasitic loss guess is off. I'd be interested in a more recent comparison.

 

[Noobz347]

Well, I specifically remember a breath-taking difference from a mag article from a long time ago. It was actually a blower comparison article. The same engine was used, and they compared Roots vs. TS vs. centri blowers at the same boost. The centri came out on top peak for peak, but the TS had more under the curve. Then for ****s and giggles, they put on a Turbo kit (helion if memory serves) and ran a couple lbs less boost through the motor. The difference was staggering. The Turbo came out on top by a gigantic margin - I'm thinking 100-ish hp. The low-end torque once the turbo spooled was off the charts, too. It must have been a MM&FF or 5.0 magazine... probably the former. I'll google it.

It would be interesting to read again, because I'm thinking that the TS blowers back then weren't the big ones they have today. The efficiency of the bigger ones would probably be more appropriate on our motors.

Still, if that article is indicative of the difference in efficiency + parasitic losses, then I think your 20-hp parasitic loss guess is off. I'd be interested in a more recent comparison.

Like any other power adder, it rises and ebbs with how much boost (a product of the engines ability to aspirate) you're making. During peak production it may be a little more and less at other times.

My TS would require more power from the crank to produce 500 HP on a stock motor than it would to make 500 HP on something that breathes better. The same though, is true of any power adder regardless of how it's driven. Just like a turbo, it needs to be matched (sized) pretty well to it's application. For the Windsor/TS market, that's considerably harder to do than it would be for a turbo. There just aren't the same number of flavors available with or without an intercooler.

Everything is a trade-off. If I'm chasing peak numbers, then I'd have started with a centri and probably gone turbo at some point since a lot of the ducting can be reused from one app to the other depending on how well someone can fab.

It's interesting to me that you brought up the Hellion kit(s). I've drooled over those systems since the first time I climbed into a car with HCI and their single turbo kit. It definitely made for a lot of grinning. hehehe If I were to order a kit today, it would most likely be a Hellion with the best head unit that I could get.

 

[FastDriver]

It was HP, as it turns out. http://www.mustangandfords.com/proj...d-modular-motor-forced-induction/viewall.html

I'd like to see how one of the larger displacement blowers of today would compare.

 

[Noobz347]

I think I recall bits and pieces of that test. Did they publish the 14lb test on-line? At 14 lbs, the starting torque will be noticeably higher on the PD blowers. That same Eaton would give up a couple of hundred rpm lower.

I do believe that now... in the age of liquid cooled, Mammoth blowers, that the divide between the latest Eaton and the latest twin screw is significantly larger. I also can't fail mention that turbos have improved quite a bit as well. A new match-up like the one you posted in recent versions, would be sweet. The only trouble is that I would want to see the new shineys on a Windsor. Not been much development on that end as of late. The new comparo would be all about mod motors.

One other thing that the article did bring to mind though is that I red-line my combo at 6250. It's not very often that it gets to red-line in the first place. When it happens, it's usually a mistake. I noted that their tests all ran out to over 6700 (I say over because it's cut-off and there's no drop-off). That is awesome territory to be in if you're a turbo. Not so sure that the local cops will love you for it.

Earlier, I think we both mentioned that we thought that a turbo would be less abusive on the motor due to how the huffer is driven. I wonder if engine revs were ever factored into that equation.

 

[Nikia]

im going to take yalls advice and do h/c/i. but i will have plenty of extra cash as the winter goes on. what rear end options do i have? what about front and rear suspension?

 

[A5literMan]

im going to take yalls advice and do h/c/i. but i will have plenty of extra cash as the winter goes on. what rear end options do i have? what about front and rear suspension?

Are you going 5lug or staying 4lug? I think the minimum I'd do is swap out to at least 31spline axles,differential,ford Motorsports ring and pinion(3.55's are a good compromise for the possible turbo or staying n/a) and a good diff cover. While the rearend is out reinforce the torque boxes and add some upper and lower controll arms from TeamZ Motorsports,UPR,or Maximum Motorsports. Also for struts and shocks I like the Strange engineering adj units. Grab some good springs,cc plates,and sub frame connectors and you're good.

Edit:and with a h/c/i + rearend/full suspension upgrade you'll eat through that 7k budget pretty quick especially if converting to 5lug!

 

[FastDriver]

Look for used parts and/or assembled and working (require proof) built motors. You'll save a bundle of time and money that way.