vintage style 289 build

[hipo wannabe]

Allright, I'm going cross-eyed reading all these posts trying to find the info that I'm looking for so I'm going to suck it up and post something of my own for once...

After years of wanting one I finally purchased a 65 coupe about a year ago, I was always taken by the style and character of the first generation mustangs and especially the those with the hipo engines (my dad owned one for a short time and retells of those days like they could only have been a dream....). Anyways, I want to replicate the basic feel or character of that car that he had while not overly concerning myself with every nut and bolt being "correct".

Currently my car has a stock bottom end C code engine that has been mildly upgraded with a pair of ceramic coated hedman headers with a 2 1/2" exhaust systemt and Flowmaster 40's, a Edelbrock performer intake and an edelbrock 500 cfm carb. I have also already purchased a set of rebuilt 65 289 heads that have been machined for screw-in studs, larger valves with a 3-angle valve job, bowls blended, milled .020" and comp dual valve springs installed. My next purchase is going to be the cam and given the goal of my build mentioned above I am thinking of doing either the Comp copy of the original of the hipo cam or their Nostalgia Plus version which is essentially a modernized version of the original.

My basic question is, what are some of the main factors that I should be considering before I purchase a cam? Is there any glaring reason that either of these cams are totally wrong for me/my engine? I hear a lot of people talk about the loss of low end torque with a cam as big as the hipo unit but will it basically be comparable to turbo lag? I have an '04 WRX as my daily driver and am quite used to that....

 

[hipo wannabe]

Forgot--
figure about 9.4-9.6:1 compression a C4 (which I will add a higher stall torque converter to if necessary) and 3.50 gears

Again, I don't care about gaining every possible .10 in the 1/4 or doing a concourse restoration, I just want the sound, feel and "character" of the original. I think the cam is the biggest factor in recreating what my dad remembers.

 

[woodsnake]

Gearing and torque converter stall speed have a TON to do with the loss of bottom end torque.
Most people, or at least a lot don't do any where near enough home work when they plan engine mods. They go to the car show, hear something cool, and the owner says "blah blah blah CAM". Then, those same non homework doing people buy a big cam and wonder why the car runs like a soup sandwich.

You are on the right track, and I think I would reccomend a "comp cams magnum" grind. Choppy idle, good performace with the gears you have listed. I'd suggest a 2500 stall torque converter, and a 650 Holley.
Are you willing to pull the heads and do the right thing with an adjustable valve train? That will be the next big headache in your quest.

Like this one.

COMP Cams K31-226-3 - COMP Cams Magnum Hydraulic Cam and Lifter Kits

 

[D.Hearne]

The Hi-po cam wasn't that big. Certainly not as big as you're being led to believe. It's more comparable to today's RV cams. Go with Woodsnake's advace and go bigger on the cam. What I'd also do is ditch the Performer intake for a Ford A321, which is the newest incarnation of the old Cobra high rise dual plane intake. Then top it with a Holley 570 Street Avenger carb.

 

[brianj5600]

I would definately change the intake.

If you stay with an auto, go 500 rpm higher than what you really want. companies are very optimistic about stall speeds, especially with 300ci motors. The converter will make or break the car imo.

 

[hipo wannabe]

Comp's modern interpretation of the hipo cam has the following specs:

Grind#: N+271S
RPM Range: 2200-6800
Intake Center: 108
Lobe Center: 112
Adv. Duration: 262/269
Dur. @ .50": 225/232

You guys are saying that it's too small? I was kind of expecting the opposite response. Like my original post stated, I am not looking to improve on the hipo engine's performance I want to recreate that same sound and performance. So I will definately be running a solid lifter cam and with something comparable size wise. What I am more interested in is everything that I need to expect or anticipate in terms of making everything work in my car. So given the above specs what kind of stall would I want/need? Will 500cfm not be nearly enough? I was thinking about switching to a classic looking 600cfm Holley anyway as it would look more period appropriate--would it also perform better?

With regards to the last post, where can I get more info on that Ford manifold? I would prefer to run something that looks a little more period correct, the Edelbrock was already on the car when I bought it, that is the only reason it's there now.

 

[D.Hearne]

That cam is more in line with what you want. But in comparing the duration specs you must also allow for subtracting some duration with a solid lifter cam from the lash settings. Do some searching on what that figure is, I don't recall offhand. All these intakes are the same: Ford Racing A321, Edelbrock F4B, Shelby Cobra high rise and Ford's old C9OX. Weiand also had one, but the runners were reversed, this was the old Stealth. The new Stealth is nearly identical to the Edelbrock RPM

 

[hipo wannabe]

All these intakes are the same: Ford Racing A321, Edelbrock F4B, Shelby Cobra high rise and Ford's old C9OX. Weiand also had one, but the runners were reversed, this was the old Stealth. The new Stealth is nearly identical to the Edelbrock RPM

Of all of these which would would have been the most prevalent during the 60's? I would assume the Shelby or Ford C90X? Are these still available today or are they high dollar collectible pieces now?

I really want the overall look, sound and feel of the time so it sounds like one of the above intakes with a classic gold Holley 600cfm and the cam I mentioned will get me more than on my way....

Do the heads that I described above sound like they would be a good compliment to this overall setup? As long as they're original iron castings they will give me the look that I want and hopefully the mods that have been done will be a secret performance boost. Considering funds will probably be getting tight here soon, would it be in any way unbearable or detrimental to run this engine setup with the stock converter for a while until I can get a new one with a higher stall? That's why I brought up the reference to turbo lag in my original post, if that same feel will be the result of running this cam with a stock converter then I can deal with that for a while until I get my hands on a more appropriate converter.

Thanks

 

[rbohm]

for a cam i suggest the comp cams 270 magnum cam. it will give you the sound you are looking for, and wont hurt the low end enough to bother with. as for an intake, the ford A321 as DH indicated is the modern equivalent to the old F4B intake, and is a better intake the the performer you now have.

 

[bnickel]

weiand also has a new Action Plus intake that is very similar to the old F4B intake, i believe ford racing still sell the A321 intake too and all of the mustang parts places will have a copy of the old cobra intake that is made by Blue Thunder. also the new Stealth intake still looks pretty similar to the F4B intake, at least for the 289/302 engines anyway, not exact but similar, the action plus is a lot closer. also check ebay for good used intakes, a lot of times you can an F4B, C90X or old cobra intake pretty reasonable.

here's a nice C90X intake, the guy says it's for a 351w but it's actually for a 289/302. i have the 351w version of this intake and they don't even look similar much less could they be confused for one another. this is without a doubt for a 289/302.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Shel...ryZ34198QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

here's an old F4B intake

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/CLAS...ryZ36474QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

here's one of the weiand action plus intakes

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/New-...ryZ33585QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


i couldn't one of the ford racing versions on ebay this time, but they come up on there a lot. also you might look for a weiand Colt intake, it's also very similar but as DH said it's the one that the intake runners are turned around opposite on.

 

[D.Hearne]

That Weiand Action plus had the reversed runners. The F4B is the more common of the two between it and the C9OX. The Cobra intakes are more numerous, but there's a big price difference between the originals and the repro's. Then there were serveral variations among the originals that I've seen command premuim prices. The A321 sells for around $200 new. You might find one for less used.

 

[Mustang Junkie]

Hello All, I'm brand new to this group, but this topic is right up my alley!
Here's my .02 cents... If you want the sound of the original K code, you HAVE to go Solid lifter. period... Something has to be said about a solid lifter cam screaming at 7,000 rpm. I am currently rebuilding my 66 gt and I am going with the new Comp Cams N+271S camshaft. It should make a bit more power than than stock K code. I am sold on this cam...

It doesn't require a stall, but what do you guys think, should one be used?

 

[D.Hearne]

Hello All, I'm brand new to this group, but this topic is right up my alley!
Here's my .02 cents... If you want the sound of the original K code, you HAVE to go Solid lifter. period... Something has to be said about a solid lifter cam screaming at 7,000 rpm. I am currently rebuilding my 66 gt and I am going with the new Comp Cams N+271S camshaft. It should make a bit more power than than stock K code. I am sold on this cam...

I assume you've never heard a healthy hydraulic roller at 7 grand then. Or at idle. I'm runnin the Z303 with 1.7 full roller rockers in my 331. It sounds exactly like a solid roller.

 

[blown65]

I would definately change the intake.

If you stay with an auto, go 500 rpm higher than what you really want. companies are very optimistic about stall speeds, especially with 300ci motors. The converter will make or break the car imo.

I agree, they will make or break a setup. Most the time they are always too tight, not often do you hear of someone having too loose of a converter. Hell, my converter now stalls right at 6000 and you can still drive around on the street easily. Starting off in second gear you can def tell its way loose however.

 

[Mustang Junkie]

Yeah, I looked into the 270S as well, but I believe the N+271S will be a bit better. I know this is just a guestimate, but this is a really helpful tool if you know your numbers:

Online Dyno

It seems fairly accurate; If you put in the numbers of a known dyno, it's pretty darn close. This really helped me in deciding on what camshaft to use. Of course I would love some AFR 165cc street/strip heads to match... maybe when I hit that Lottery.

 

[Mustang Junkie]

D Hearne... Actually, I have heard a strong hydraulic sound a lot like a solid, but there is a bit of a difference. Besides with my current head setup, that's a bit more cam (Z303) than I can handle at this point! Plus, this is going my daily driver... again. It's been a long time rebuilding.

 

[hipo wannabe]

If you want the sound of the original K code, you HAVE to go Solid lifter. period... Something has to be said about a solid lifter cam screaming at 7,000 rpm. I am currently rebuilding my 66 gt and I am going with the new Comp Cams N+271S camshaft. It should make a bit more power than than stock K code. I am sold on this cam...

It doesn't require a stall, but what do you guys think, should one be used?

This is exactly the point I was making with my orginal post, the solid lifter sound is unmistakable and is absolutely necessary for reproducing the original excitement of the hipo 289s. I too am going with the N+271S cam....it just arrived yesterday as a matter of fact! I too am wondering about recommendations for a stall converter. Comp doesn't say that it's required but I don't want a dog of a car that sounds like a beast! On that topic, although this is Comps "modern" version of the original, what would you say they're basing that on??? The specs seem a fair bit different...seeing as how this is my first cam upgrade does anyone have any thoughts on what I can expect from this cam in my combo? I ditched the performer intake and scored a vintage torker and got a 600cfm holley with vac. secondaries, still going to be running headman headers and the upgraded heads that I mentioned in my first post.

Thanks

 

[D.Hearne]

D Hearne... Actually, I have heard a strong hydraulic sound a lot like a solid, but there is a bit of a difference. Besides with my current head setup, that's a bit more cam (Z303) than I can handle at this point! Plus, this is going my daily driver... again. It's been a long time rebuilding.

The Z isn't as radical as you'd think. I was doing a 50 mile R/T commute with this engine in my 89 Ranger a couple years ago. The power band starts at 1500 with a high rise dual plane intake.

 

[Mustang Junkie]

The Z isn't as radical as you'd think. I was doing a 50 mile R/T commute with this engine in my 89 Ranger a couple years ago. The power band starts at 1500 with a high rise dual plane intake.

You're right, I assumed about that cam... I looked up the #'s, it isn't as wild as I believed.
It seems to me that adv duration being really high compared to the duration @ 0.50 hurts performance (unless you are pumping tons of air and rpm) where a lower adv duration with the same duration @ 0.50 makes more power lower in the powerband with less air and rpm; which is why I chose the cam I chose for street use. It seems this setup is found mostly in Solid Lifter cams. Please, correct me or help me! Thanks...

 

[D.Hearne]

You're right, I assumed about that cam... I looked up the #'s, it isn't as wild as I believed.
It seems to me that adv duration being really high compared to the duration @ 0.50 hurts performance (unless you are pumping tons of air and rpm) where a lower adv duration with the same duration @ 0.50 makes more power lower in the powerband with less air and rpm; which is why I chose the cam I chose for street use. It seems this setup is found mostly in Solid Lifter cams. Please, correct me or help me! Thanks...

You're sort of on the right track. It's the duration at .050 that really determines the behavior of any cam. Ford "advertises" the Z303 as more than it really is. It has a high lift, especially with 1.7's, but the duration at 50 is smaller than some others. I'm running it with Canfields that are the equivalent of the AFR 165's and a three duece repop setup with 250 cfm Holleys, that also has a lot to do with it's powerband turning on at 1500, but it still pulls to 7000. It would behave differently with a Vic Jr and a 750 Holley 4 bbl., the powerband would be moved at least 1500 rpms upwards on both ends, but I have no desire to rev the motor that high and shorten it's lifespan. I'm completely satisfied the way it turned out. It's tame enough for everyday driving, but still turns heads when people hear it's idle. Plus, even with a less than 2000 stall, it only needs a light touch of the brakes and gas to break the 295/50's out back loose and go sideways on dry pavement.