Engine What a Conundrum we find ourselves in.
- Thread starter Enzio
- Start date
extra_stout
5 Year Member
Okay, because if you stay with your current 4speed, this would limit torque, but you could go for RPM...
So what kind of driver are you? Do you like high revving engines? Do you like more "road racing" where you use the whole RPM bandwidth?
And: what is you budget?! Are you happy with some minor upgrades on the engine and perhaps keep the 4-speed or do you want to get rid of it the 4 speed and swap to t5 in any case?
So what kind of driver are you? Do you like high revving engines? Do you like more "road racing" where you use the whole RPM bandwidth?
And: what is you budget?! Are you happy with some minor upgrades on the engine and perhaps keep the 4-speed or do you want to get rid of it the 4 speed and swap to t5 in any case?
Well, this is a good question. What do I want from my car?
First off as stated before; I'm old. So, I'm not interested in drag racing but at the same time I'd really like it to get up and go when I want. (difficult to make the II's hook-up anyway)
So I guess I'm really looking for a sports car and this is what I've got to start with. I've owned it for 42 years and now is the time to build it to the point that makes me smile. Last summer before things went to crap I felt that it would be nice to have 300+ HP and use the whole RPM band if that's possible.
At the same time I'd like to use it daily and take it on road trips around the country and visit family and friends. I'll park it in the winter and drive my truck.
The 4 speed has to go as it's weak. Especially 2nd gear. But that's not all. Here in the US most state freeway speeds range from 70 MPH to 80 MPH (112KPH to 129KPH). I'm not 100% sure but with the 4sp. that's around the 4000 RPM mark. In my opinion that's way too high for a cruising speed. Thus, the T5 would fix that problem. Changing out to the T5 seems to me to be a no-brainer. Now to find one.
As for budget...I guess that will be determined by the stock market for the rest of the year. I'm retired and my yearly income is in a direct relationship. This is the reason for the discussion. If or when things get back to normal I'd like to have my plan ready so I can get to work.
I enjoy the satisfaction of doing the work myself and enjoying the results. Buying a pre-built or crate engine is easy and only an option if I run out of time.
Thank you,
Enzio
First off as stated before; I'm old. So, I'm not interested in drag racing but at the same time I'd really like it to get up and go when I want. (difficult to make the II's hook-up anyway)
So I guess I'm really looking for a sports car and this is what I've got to start with. I've owned it for 42 years and now is the time to build it to the point that makes me smile. Last summer before things went to crap I felt that it would be nice to have 300+ HP and use the whole RPM band if that's possible.
At the same time I'd like to use it daily and take it on road trips around the country and visit family and friends. I'll park it in the winter and drive my truck.
The 4 speed has to go as it's weak. Especially 2nd gear. But that's not all. Here in the US most state freeway speeds range from 70 MPH to 80 MPH (112KPH to 129KPH). I'm not 100% sure but with the 4sp. that's around the 4000 RPM mark. In my opinion that's way too high for a cruising speed. Thus, the T5 would fix that problem. Changing out to the T5 seems to me to be a no-brainer. Now to find one.
As for budget...I guess that will be determined by the stock market for the rest of the year. I'm retired and my yearly income is in a direct relationship. This is the reason for the discussion. If or when things get back to normal I'd like to have my plan ready so I can get to work.
I enjoy the satisfaction of doing the work myself and enjoying the results. Buying a pre-built or crate engine is easy and only an option if I run out of time.
Thank you,
Enzio
extra_stout
5 Year Member
I'm not talking of a crate engine, but a junkjard engine, when I mentioned late model engines.
If you have a good bottom end, I would just pick up some production heads (E7TE or GT40 without p) and do a cam swap with some upgrade springs (alexparts.com has the right springs for this production heads).
I would look up what this will cost and I think for this money you can get an 5.0 HO engine. Because you need also the T5 transmission; perhaps the easiest way is to hunt for a complete donor car. you can strip everything off the motor down to the heads and block and reuse your intake manifold/carb and the whole front dress (timing cover, water pump...). What you will need is a new balancer (has different "weight" than stock) and a distributor with a steel gear (or a complete distributor like this: https://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/pnx-d134600/make/ford).
I think the performance is near 300 HP (was in articles about 280HP at the flywheel) and makes good torque and fuel economy.
If you have a good bottom end, I would just pick up some production heads (E7TE or GT40 without p) and do a cam swap with some upgrade springs (alexparts.com has the right springs for this production heads).
I would look up what this will cost and I think for this money you can get an 5.0 HO engine. Because you need also the T5 transmission; perhaps the easiest way is to hunt for a complete donor car. you can strip everything off the motor down to the heads and block and reuse your intake manifold/carb and the whole front dress (timing cover, water pump...). What you will need is a new balancer (has different "weight" than stock) and a distributor with a steel gear (or a complete distributor like this: https://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/pnx-d134600/make/ford).
I think the performance is near 300 HP (was in articles about 280HP at the flywheel) and makes good torque and fuel economy.
Here's what I would suggest given you're looking to swap the old 4 speed for a T5. Granted some of this will probably be easier said than done, but I think it'd give you what you're after. If you're looking to rebuild the engine and all of that, I'd just have the heads checked and refreshed. That should keep costs down some. Replace the pistons with hypereutectic flat tops (assuming you'll need to have the engine bored and replace them anyway....), find and buy a dual plane intake (one like I have would work great as it's basically an Edelbrock without the Eddy price), Replace the cam with one that's power band is somewhere in the 1500-4500 rpm range, add a 600 vacuum secondary carb and call it a day. It won't make blazing power but it should be noticeable compared to what you have now. In your budget I'd also suggest an air fuel ratio gauge so you can adjust the carburetor should it need it. I'm kinda speaking from experience with that since mine needs tuned in the worst way and I don't have one, so I guess I'm trying to teach from my mistake. In any event, a combo like that should yield you somewhere between 250-300 fly wheel horsepower and be driver friendly. While you're at it I'd say to swap the rear gears for some 3.55s. The T5 will allow the slightly steeper gear to give you the seat of the pants difference and still cruise on the highway without revving to the moon.
There are definitely other ways to go about it and others out there who know a lot more than I. But keeping budget in mind and making it priority, and assuming you'll have the heads reworked, this would be my initial shopping list:
You already have headers so that's not something you'll have to try to locate and buy. Everything else can either be purchased at your discretion or your machinist may have connections to be able to hook you up with some components - specifically pistons if you're over-boring the block. Now, if you can get your heads drilled and tapped for screw in studs a set of roller rockers would be added to that list too, but that might also necessitate taller valve covers. And again, if it were me and that were done, I'd look to increase the ratio from 1.6 to 1.7 which effectively increases the valve lift. For the cam I listed the lift would go from .472/.496 to .502/.527. In that case you'd want to double check piston to valve clearance. You'd also need to double check what valve spring pressures and heights you would need.
As for the gear swap, you might get lucky and find someone or someplace that has an 8 inch with 3.55 gears already. My gears were from a V6 II that I got as a parts car. If you can get that lucky, just swapping the carrier is a simple project that will yield a great seat of the pants result. If not then you're relegated to buying a new gear set. Swapping the gear set really isn't as hard as some think it is but you'll definitely need a few specialty tools to get the job done such as a dial indicator and a press. Adding a locking or limited slip differential wouldn't be a bad idea at all either, but not totally necessary if you're not really interested in stomping on the go pedal from a stop (like some of us with lead feet do from time to time....
).
And as already mentioned, the heads are basically the choke point of these engines. While they cost about as much as the combination of parts I already listed (or more!), they dictate what kind of power those components are capable of. A decent set of heads like the Twisted Wedges I have can bump the 250-300 flywheel horse power to the 300-350 range. They will quickly eat a budget, but if you can swing it they will be an improvement over production heads and yield more power in general. But, in that vein, since you're not looking for a high rpm screamer, you'll most likely want to stay with smaller ports, instead of the hogged out version of whatever head you were to choose.
There are definitely other ways to go about it and others out there who know a lot more than I. But keeping budget in mind and making it priority, and assuming you'll have the heads reworked, this would be my initial shopping list:
You already have headers so that's not something you'll have to try to locate and buy. Everything else can either be purchased at your discretion or your machinist may have connections to be able to hook you up with some components - specifically pistons if you're over-boring the block. Now, if you can get your heads drilled and tapped for screw in studs a set of roller rockers would be added to that list too, but that might also necessitate taller valve covers. And again, if it were me and that were done, I'd look to increase the ratio from 1.6 to 1.7 which effectively increases the valve lift. For the cam I listed the lift would go from .472/.496 to .502/.527. In that case you'd want to double check piston to valve clearance. You'd also need to double check what valve spring pressures and heights you would need.
As for the gear swap, you might get lucky and find someone or someplace that has an 8 inch with 3.55 gears already. My gears were from a V6 II that I got as a parts car. If you can get that lucky, just swapping the carrier is a simple project that will yield a great seat of the pants result. If not then you're relegated to buying a new gear set. Swapping the gear set really isn't as hard as some think it is but you'll definitely need a few specialty tools to get the job done such as a dial indicator and a press. Adding a locking or limited slip differential wouldn't be a bad idea at all either, but not totally necessary if you're not really interested in stomping on the go pedal from a stop (like some of us with lead feet do from time to time....
).And as already mentioned, the heads are basically the choke point of these engines. While they cost about as much as the combination of parts I already listed (or more!), they dictate what kind of power those components are capable of. A decent set of heads like the Twisted Wedges I have can bump the 250-300 flywheel horse power to the 300-350 range. They will quickly eat a budget, but if you can swing it they will be an improvement over production heads and yield more power in general. But, in that vein, since you're not looking for a high rpm screamer, you'll most likely want to stay with smaller ports, instead of the hogged out version of whatever head you were to choose.
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While I agree with this I also know that budget can be a limiting factor. My suggestion to go along with what 2blue2 said is to buy what you can when you feel comfortable. A lot of that stuff will be just fine sitting on a shelf until you're ready for it. It kinda goes along with this saying: How do you eat an elephant? One spoonful at a time.
Thanks so much for all the advice. I'm sorry for not getting into this too much today. I've been feeling like crap.
I'm going to take a nap.
I'm going to take a nap.
Actually, the cam I linked is very close to the one I run now. My current cam is a Melling 24203. Summit has the cam alone for $107, so you'd need lifters to go with it....
Hi. Finally starting to feel a little better. I sure wish I knew if this was a cold or the disease.
I think that we're focusing too much on the budget and HP (300 minimum). If you are still willing to help, then what you do if you didn't need to worry about it short of the cost of a crate engine and still use the 69 block? Also something I'd be able to build. I think I have most of the tools I'd need.
So that being said the motor is coming out and completely disassembled. The block will cleaned and bored and checked for 90 degrees.
What else needs to be done to the block?
I think that we're focusing too much on the budget and HP (300 minimum). If you are still willing to help, then what you do if you didn't need to worry about it short of the cost of a crate engine and still use the 69 block? Also something I'd be able to build. I think I have most of the tools I'd need.
So that being said the motor is coming out and completely disassembled. The block will cleaned and bored and checked for 90 degrees.
What else needs to be done to the block?
Bored if necessary or desired honed if not. Get the decks checked for straightness while its there. Have it align-honed, and have your machinist install the cam bearings and put the pistons on the rods if you're replacing them (mandatory if boring it out).
The advantage of your '69 block is that you already have it and the II-specific parts fit. The only real disadvantage is that it rules out a roller cam unless you're willing to use expensive lifters with tie-bars.
A roller block is 100% the opposite of your '69 block when it comes to advantages and disadvantages. It's roller cam ready, but you don't already have one, and you'd need a different balancer and flywheel.
Align honing is where the machinist bolts the main caps in place on the block, torques them to spec, and hones the mains to get them 100% true.
When I get home from work, I'll find a good video of the machining process for the 302, I'm on lunch at work and about to go take the transmission I just finished installing back out of a 330i because I forgot something.
I'd pretty much go with what I shared already. Have the block bored and honed if needed. Have the crank checked. Have the rotating assembly balanced. If you're willing to spend the money I'd get a set of aluminum heads, Trick Flow being at the top of my list. With those, you'll have screw in studs, so I'd get myself a set of 1.7 roller rockers. The Trick Flows will also necessitate new push rods, so you can add those to the list as well as an adjustable push rod to be able to measure for proper geometry and know what length to buy. Going with the Trick Flows you might be able to step the carb up to a 650 but I think I'd still keep it a vacuum secondary carb. You'll also most likely want to pick up a new radiator, one of the aluminum 3 rows that some are using would probably be my first choice, and an electric fan. Basically, with all of that and including a T5 swap and 3.55 gears, you'd be pushing power close to what I have which has been a proven combo on the highway. If memory serves, I averaged around 19 mpg on the trip to Myrtle Beach for Mustang Week a few years ago.
Most likely not. When your machinist inspects everything they'll check it as well for scratches/gouges that may affect it, for the sizing of the journals if they're worn, straightness, etc. If it needs anything they'll let you know. I'd imagine a worst case scenario you may need the rod and main journals ground .010. If that needs to happen there are bearings made for the difference just like there are piston rings for over bores.
extra_stout
5 Year Member
Just to be precise: i would use the stock roller cam. It has similar specs to the cam LILCBRA suggested. And your right: you need to buy a new balancer. But if the 69 block is still in stock condition, a new balancer is needed in any case. With the flywheel you are right, that needs to be new or rebalanced. BUT what is about the T5 swap? Will the old bellhousing and flywheel be reused? Or is a modern style bellhousing used.
Everything else will fit to the roller block.
Your suggestions are also a good way to do the build. Trick Flow heads are very good. AFR165cc heads are also very good heads (perhaps a tiny bit better), but even more expensive. With the aluminium heads you will have more power than just a roller block with production heads. Add the aluminium heads to the roller engine it will be the better combo.
In my opinion even with "just" getting the heads working again (or buy good production heads like E7TE or GT40) and cam swap (LILCBRAs cam suggestion is excellent) in combination with the T5 will make a big difference. I personally see a bigger advantage in adding the right rear end ratio with limited slip (detroit truetrac) then in aluminium heads, but that strongly depends on personal liking.
