whats the down falls to a 351 clevland

Z06killinSBF · Dec 13, 2005

Cool, good stuff to know. Thanks for all the feedback.

brianj5600 · Dec 13, 2005

Stock stuff is not cheap once you rebuild it and ports are not good at low rpm's. CHI heads are nice, but for $2k i'll take the 205 afr's. The "good" C heads, better than inlines, are very expensive and have the ports raised enough that headers may be a custom deal on a classic. Sentimental or the fact that you have stuff laying around are the only reasons to go canted unless you are heads up racing, and then you need Yate's on Neal heads IMO. HP per dollar from scratch, the W will win.

RMODEL65 · Dec 13, 2005

cleveland

i had a 72 fastback i put 5gs in the engine it was a monster i was running 10.2 compression with a .524 inch crane cam with 272o duration edelbrock intake 670cfm street avenger carb 2v heads windage tray a tranny with a tci rebuild i did with extra clutches and steels and a 3000 rpm stall converter i would get the front left tire off the ground with 3:1 gears in an open rear torque monster!! there is a late model mustang mag on the shelves the guy is running about 500rwhp with 11:1 compression not to shabby

Wootdog · Dec 13, 2005

well im getin alot of input on these motors thanks josh

dodgestang · Dec 14, 2005

Wow....what a post and what a bunch of responses.

I am not going to weigh in AGAIN on the whole 351w vs 351c debate.

I will weigh in that.....

Any speed shop who builds a motor and 'guesses' that it will make about 400hp but doesn't actually know...its prob not someone to deal with. I would also recommend avoiding .060 motors in general because no matter block it is (W/C/FE) its all over. One problem and you can't recover without getting a new block, you'll never be able to rebuild the motor, and .060 without a sonic check is limitation is any factory block AFAIK.

However, if the price is making you drool, there are a few questions you can ask to help clarify what it is. Things like:

1. Gee...what heads are there? 2v or 4v?
1. Followup...gee...4v?? open or closed chamber?
2. Did you do anything to the heads? you know like screw in studs, one pieve stainless valves, new guides? Any porting?
3. .060 wow....where did you find pistons? Are they forged?
4. Did you put a new crank in it or have the old stock one turned?
5. What CAM shaft? Do you have the card? What's the operating range? How much lift does it have?
6. You didn't put a high pressure oil pump in did you?

If complete motor:
7. What intake is that? What's its operating range?

If CAM Range is not approx = to intake range then
8. Why the hell would you put a 3000-6500 cam in a motor with a stock intake? A performer intake? A street domminator intake?

or

9. Why the hell would you put a tunnel ram, funnel web, torker, xcelerator, strip dommy on a car with a little cam like that that putters out by 5500 RPM?
10. Geeze what size carb do you recommend I run on this?

LMan · Dec 14, 2005

Clevelands are fine engines. I would not hesitate to have a well-built C in anything I own.

Wootdog · Dec 14, 2005

what i said was this motor was already built when igot the car dont know much about it the stamp on the block read .060 over size on it dont know were motor was built i ask a speed shop how much horse power it i might have they said 400 but they would have to dyno it to be sure it has a domintaior intake 4v heads and erson 5 somthin cam in it found the box what the cam came in in the car when i got it and some paper work to far gone to read thats al i know about this motor and its in a 71 mach 1 workin ram air I got this car from from a guy in va whose roomate left state and left it their for 5 years while he was in the navy the guy who had the car at this place got married car had to go had to replace floors cowl all the inside it was rotted now waitin on nice weather again so i can paint it all the inputs been great thanks

dodgestang · Dec 14, 2005

Erson Cam Specs:
http://go.mrgasket.com/CatalogsDownloads.aspx?ID=39

Page 14-16

There are only 2 cams I see with a 5 anywhere in their name (with a quick parusal) and they both would me a nice match to the Dominator intake you have. The car 'would' exhibit a relatively lopey idle with either of these cams so it might be quickly dismissed, but if you have the box you can figure out pretty easily what cam is in the car. You can also figure out easily enough by pulling a valve cover off if the valve train has been upgraded. If the valve stems have 4 grooves in them they are stock valves. If it has roller rockers, it most likely has the screw in studs too.

Wootdog · Dec 14, 2005

wellthe cam box has these # on it e220306 and it does have heck of a lot of loap to it it shakes alot haha

Wootdog · Dec 14, 2005

ill ck the valve train again to see if there stock but it does have rollers thanks for the input

dodgestang · Dec 14, 2005

Hot Street/E.T. Brackets. More mid-range torque and horsepower can be expected from
351-362 cubic inch engines with 10.5-11.5:1 compression using this camshaft. Needs
dual plane or Victor Jr. style intake, 750 cfm 4-barrel, headers and 3" free flowing exhaust.
4-speed or automatic with 3,500-4,000 RPM converter, low gears and sticky D.O.T. tires.

3,750- E220306
7,200 F-286-2

286° IN 250° IN .588" IN 108° 0° 027" IN
294° EX 258° EX .588" EX .027" EX

Semi Radical Race Cam - car should have very good power.

Get it running and drive it you'll like if you are looking for a zippy car.

Its also a solid lifter cam which means you have a fully adjustable valve train...only a very small % of the population would install an adjustable valve train and still use the stock valves so it sounds to me like you have a hot little street car.

Wootdog · Dec 14, 2005

hopefuly ican get it back togather pretty quick got all inside of out right now but if it gets warmer ill get back togather hope fuly get some pics of it worth lookin at soon it all prime and ready for color thinkin of 97 volvo blue green matalic or midnight blue with matalic gold

Gud T.B. Blown · Dec 14, 2005

brianj5600 said:
brianj5600 said:

Stock stuff is not cheap once you rebuild it and ports are not good at low rpm's.

Click to expand...

that is a myth perpetrated by the windsor folks. on the street a stock cleveland with either 2V or 4V heads has plenty of low end grunt.

302 coupe · Dec 14, 2005

for real, I've never noticed any lack of low end power with a 4V cleveland. Given a similar build, the cleveland will make more power across the board 95% of the time.

180 Out · Dec 14, 2005

Hack said:
http://www.chiheads.com/main.html

You could read about how CHI heads were on the 700 horsepower pump gas Cleveland that won the Engine Master's competition.

I'm not sure if there were Windsor style competitors, but the winner was the Cleveland. You don't see articles in magazines about CHI because they are little guys that can't afford big ad campaigns. But they know Clevelands and their stuff works.

Now what you want in your daily driver is not what was put in an Engine Masters competition, but "better" doesn't really have to do with picking up groceries down the block, does it?

The Engine Master finalists are DEFINITELY not the hot ticket for picking up groceries. Here's an edit of the write up of the '04 edition, won by a CHI-headed Clevor:

"[T]he 12.8:1 BES Ford idled lazily. . . . During the mandatory warm-up pulls, audible detonation shook the dyno. . . . When the hammer was dropped for the competition pulls the BES Ford responded with 657.5 hp and 601 lb.-ft. peak numbers . . . and a total score of 1,022.6. . . .

"Next up was the Chevy team of W. Enterprises, whose 12.5:1 compression, 409-cube motor had qualified in second place. . . . During the warm-up pulls the motor knocked and rattled plenty. . . . Despite scary levels of detonation, the big Chevy cranked out three nearly identical competition pulls. . . . The crazy-rattling Chevy had generated peak numbers of 667.8 hp and 596.7 lb.-ft. . . . and a total of 1,031.2
points. . . .

"Jon Kaase's . . . Ford 408 Cleveland . . . [ran] Australian CH1 Cleveland heads, AMC six-cylinder main bearings and .5-inch thick copper head spacers . . . [and] 12.4:1 compression. . . . 'I've got the timing back as far as it will go (24 BTDC). . . .' During the warm-up pulls the motor easily made in excess of 650 hp despite audible levels of detonation. . . . The amazing result was peak output of 691.2 hp and 616.2 lb.-ft. . . . and . . . a total score of 1,043.2 to win the Engine Masters Challenge."

In other words, one of these MIGHT get you to the A & P without the con rods falling out the bottom, but it probably will not get you home.

Hack · Dec 14, 2005

brianj5600 said:
Stock stuff is not cheap once you rebuild it and ports are not good at low rpm's. CHI heads are nice, but for $2k i'll take the 205 afr's. The "good" C heads, better than inlines, are very expensive and have the ports raised enough that headers may be a custom deal on a classic. Sentimental or the fact that you have stuff laying around are the only reasons to go canted unless you are heads up racing, and then you need Yate's on Neal heads IMO. HP per dollar from scratch, the W will win.

I love debating stuff like this! Fun.

Anyway, I disagree with your post.
1. stock W vs stock C (4V CC or OC) - C wins hands down. In fact, the stock C beats any manufacturer's engine from the 70's with similar cubes. That's why the Chevy guys like to call the C a big block.
2. modded W vs stock C (4V CC or OC) - could be close. Depends on how much you spend on the W.
3. modded W vs. modded C - C wins if you spend a comparable amount because you HAVE to buy aftermarket heads for the W to come even close to a Cleveland, and the C cast iron heads do not have to be replaced. That's a lot of extra money to upgrade the C.
5. ultimate modded W vs. ultimate modded C - W wins with aftermarket block, but C heads on an aftermarket block still beat the W.

I disagree that you need Yates high port heads to make big power with a Cleveland. The Engine Master's Cleveland didn't use high port heads.

Hack · Dec 14, 2005

180 Out said:
The Engine Master finalists are DEFINITELY not the hot ticket for picking up groceries. Here's an edit of the write up of the '04 edition, won by a CHI-headed Clevor:

...snip...

In other words, one of these MIGHT get you to the A & P without the con rods falling out the bottom, but it probably will not get you home.

Yes, in the real world you would run different compression or higher octane gas.

brianj5600 · Dec 14, 2005

Hack said:
I love debating stuff like this! Fun.

Anyway, I disagree with your post.
1. stock W vs stock C (4V CC or OC) - C wins hands down. In fact, the stock C beats any manufacturer's engine from the 70's with similar cubes. That's why the Chevy guys like to call the C a big block.
2. modded W vs stock C (4V CC or OC) - could be close. Depends on how much you spend on the W.
3. modded W vs. modded C - C wins if you spend a comparable amount because you HAVE to buy aftermarket heads for the W to come even close to a Cleveland, and the C cast iron heads do not have to be replaced. That's a lot of extra money to upgrade the C.
5. ultimate modded W vs. ultimate modded C - W wins with aftermarket block, but C heads on an aftermarket block still beat the W.

I disagree that you need Yates high port heads to make big power with a Cleveland. The Engine Master's Cleveland didn't use high port heads.

Starting from scratch meaning you don't even have a core.
1. I agree.
2. Cam, intake and used GT40 heads would not be alot of money and up to the task of a STOCK C.
3. New valves, springs, retainers, studs, guide plates, hardend seats plus machining for guide plates on canted valves, new guides and valve job will get you very close to the cost of a set of Victor Jr heads. Stock C ports from what I've seen published flow 270ish int, and 170ish ex. meaning less flow and more prone to detonation and they are heavy cast iron . The cheapest aluminum C heads are more expensive and flow less, RPM's. Advantage W.
4. ?
5. Yates or Neals, yes, they have an advantage over inlines. Nothing stock will bolt up though. The stock ex port location causes a sharp turn limiting flow.
I agree that Clevelands are great motors, but with all the developement on W's, I don't think they are as appealing as they were in the 70's and early 80's. The engine masters used $2000+ heads and a $460 intake before porting, and where do you get a .5" copper block spacer. Nothing like I have seen under a hood at the local cruise. I don't know if NASCAR ran port plates, but prostock did in the 70's which corrected the exhaust port.

ddonaca351 · Dec 14, 2005

The single worst thing about running a Cleveland is having to listen to all the arm-chair quarterbacks, (who I would wager 95% of have never BUILT anything in their life), tell everybody how worthless they are.

Did you notice how many engines in the engine masters challenge were C head motors???? Keep in mind these are some of, if not THEE, best engine builders in the country...

One of my favorites is the guys who bad-mouth a 351C in one breath and then turn around and sing the praises of the boss302 in the next.... (think about it)

Want a good idea of what a 393 inch Cleveland in a stang runs like? ... Ever ride in a 396 powered camaro???
(go to strokerkits.com, flatlander racing, coast high performance, network54.com, etc...)

But ANY WAY... other than that one drawback, I think they are a fine engine.

Parts, etc are all available. If you already have one, or can get a good deal on one, dont pass it up.

DD

brianj5600 · Dec 15, 2005

ddonaca351 said:
Did you notice how many engines in the engine masters challenge were C head motors????

And all but one got beat by a Chevy motor!
I wonder why all the hard core racing developement uses cleveland heads and more street oriented developement was on windsor based heads. Maybe a small block running less than 6500 rpms does not need 2.19 intake valves and huge ports. Maybe big valves and ports are best for a street driven car and a more usable powerband would result. I wonder how much torque and hp I would gain if I got rid of my AFR 185s and put on some stock Cleveland heads?

whats the down falls to a 351 clevland

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