Which EFI option?

ForceFed70 · Jul 25, 2005

Hi guys,

I'm getting ready to start bringing in the parts for my EFI conversion, but am stuck a little in regards to what hardware to run. I'm going to use a MegaSquirt ECU, so I can program it to work with just about any hardware.

My goal is to keep total cost down to approx $1000

Basically, I have 2 options:

1) Keep the Performer 351W intake, and use a TBI style system. There's a pretty sweet setup here: http://www.auto-nomics.com/cgi-bin/showresults?a=detail&part=10850-002-D.

2) Purchase factory EFI equipment from a fuel injected 351W. Not a SVT motor.

I'm a little concerned that the factory 351W EFI equipment will limit me in regards of horsepower. I noticed that these engines are only rated to 210HP. I'm also worried about hood clearance.

The TBI unit will allow me to keep my current Nitrous system (re-jetted tho). And is a much simpler to install. But it's not multiport injection... which means a small sacrifice in throttle responce. I also like how it can give me the classic look of a carbed engine, but the power and economy of EFI.

What do you think?

65up2d8 · Jul 25, 2005

I think you are mistaken in thinking that if you use that throttle body you necessarily have throttle body injection. Throttle body injection is like a carburetor; the injectors are mounted in the throttle body. I think the throttle body you are looking at is only to draw air, and the injectors would be mounted in the individual runners on the intake and connected to fuel rails. Therefore, it would still be multiport injection.

ForceFed70 · Jul 25, 2005

65up2d8 said:
I think you are mistaken in thinking that if you use that throttle body you necessarily have throttle body injection. Throttle body injection is like a carburetor; the injectors are mounted in the throttle body. I think the throttle body you are looking at is only to draw air, and the injectors would be mounted in the individual runners on the intake and connected to fuel rails. Therefore, it would still be multiport injection.

No, I'm not mistaken.

Take a look at the link. That particular throttle body is machined for 4 injectors, or you can buy injector plugs for use with a multiport manifold. Problem is that I can't afford to get my manifold machined for multiport with my current budget.

My other option would be a TBI unit from a 454 (GM). I would then need to figure out some sort of a adaptor plate to make it work with the holley 4bbl bolt pattern.

bnickel · Jul 25, 2005

check ebay for a newer holley pro-jection unit, just make sure it is a digital unit not the old analog. i think you can even buy a new one for about a grand or so. i think the problem you'll run into with the MS system is that by the time you buy all the parts and pieces for the conversion you'll be spending about the same money as a holley system, at leats if you get quality new parts, different story if you buy good used peices. you should also be able to find 351 intakes and stuff on ebay if you look around.

bnickel · Jul 25, 2005

here is a complete new projection system on ebay

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/HOLL...ryZ33553QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

here is another one

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Holl...ryZ33553QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

bnickel · Jul 25, 2005

here is a gt 40 intake

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Ford...989382065QQcategoryZ36474QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

ForceFed70 · Jul 25, 2005

The holley pro-jection throttle body is a nice unit...but I don't like the ECU. Would rather use the megasquirt ECU.

But I will keep an eye open for a pro-jection throttle-body only auction as I can use the megasquirt ECU to use the pro-jection hardware.

At which point it's basically the same thing as the link I posted above...

ForceFed70 · Jul 25, 2005

bnickel said:
here is a gt 40 intake

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Ford...989382065QQcategoryZ36474QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

My ebaying skills suck! Thanks for the links...

66P51GT · Jul 25, 2005

Interesting thought to use the TBI unit. Should save a ton considering cost of injectors, rails, and fuel lines.

You have probably already seen these but I thought I re-post anyway...

Lots of cost saving information here: http://www.fordfuelinjection.com/

One of the nicest (stock looking) systems here, but at a cost ~$2,800! http://www.mass-floefi.com/

I'm interested to see how your configuration works out. I've decided to stay carb for now and am selling all of the EFI equipement I have collected.

65up2d8 · Jul 25, 2005

70_Nitrous_Eater said:
No, I'm not mistaken.

Take a look at the link. That particular throttle body is machined for 4 injectors, or you can buy injector plugs for use with a multiport manifold. Problem is that I can't afford to get my manifold machined for multiport with my current budget.

My other option would be a TBI unit from a 454 (GM). I would then need to figure out some sort of a adaptor plate to make it work with the holley 4bbl bolt pattern.

My bad. I should have looked closer at your link. I am currently running an old 670 cfm two barrel pro-jection system on a basically stock '68 302 that's been on the car for about 12 years. Its been very, very reliable and performs quite well in comparison to the 600 Holley carb that it replaced. I can't say its any quicker, but the reliabilty and drivability has been quite nice.

With all of that being said, however, I think you need to wait until you can afford to do a multiport setup, whether it be aftermarket 5.8 or 5.0 components (the parts from the 5.0 that will work obviously) or you modify your exisiting intake to install a throttle body and fuel rails. As I said, the reliability and drivability of my TBI system has been nice, but it DOES NOT COMPARE with the 5.0 multiport cars I've driven. A TBI is only marginally better than a carb, and IMHO that's the reason they're no longer OEM equipment on anything that I know of offhand.

Besides, the tuneability and flexibilty of which I have heard you and Rufus Booth (to my recollection????) speak regarding the Megasquirt system will be almost totally wasted on a TBI system. At the end of the day, you're still just dumping fuel into an intake plenum and you have no control over flow to individual cylinders. You can install all the sensors you want, but I don't believe you'll acheive anywhere near the level of efficiency and tuneability that you would have with a multiport setup.

All of this is obviously just my $.02; its your car and you can do what you want. I simply feel you'll regret what is, in my opinion (which every a**hole like myself has), a shortcut. I really believe the multiport system is worth waiting for. I know you were turned on to this sytem by Rufus Booth (once again, I think that's correct???) who seems to have a lot of experience with the Megasquirt system. Why don't you seek his opinion on TBI vs. MPI since he's used this system?

bnickel · Jul 26, 2005

personally i wnat to keep with sleeper style and run the tbi. i know it's not as good as MPFI system but it's still a ton better than a carb especially if you get one that can control the timing functions as well which is why i like the commander 950 tbi system. they also make a version that does not have the timing control too. i'm not sure how the auto-nomics TB would compare to the throttle body that comes with the holley system but it might be a good upgrade to the holley system if the injectors will work the ecu, then again it might be a downgrade, i don't know.

65up2d8 · Jul 26, 2005

bnickel said:
personally i wnat to keep with sleeper style and run the tbi. i know it's not as good as MPFI system but it's still a ton better than a carb especially if you get one that can control the timing functions as well which is why i like the commander 950 tbi system. they also make a version that does not have the timing control too. i'm not sure how the auto-nomics TB would compare to the throttle body that comes with the holley system but it might be a good upgrade to the holley system if the injectors will work the ecu, then again it might be a downgrade, i don't know.

Did you check out the link above? I certainly am not criticizing if you did not, as I am obviously guilt of the same, but check it out if you didn't: http://www.mass-floefi.com/

You can use an air-fed only throttle body that will give you an original look with a Victor Jr. or similar looking intake unless you're concerned with the fuel rails showing. Check out the website linked above. Running the Cobra oval air cleaner, which would hide your fuel rails to a large extent should give you the look you want, IMHO. I can't stress enough that TBI is dated technology that will not give you the results you want IMO.

bnickel · Jul 26, 2005

yes the injector rails would kind of ruin the sleeper appearance, although the mass flo system is probably the most concealable of the MPI setups i've seen. i even emailed them to find out if their system could converted to work as a TBI style system and they curtly told me no it couldn't and they wouldn't even mess with trying make it work. i could always paint the rails blue or black to try and get them to blend in a bit better but i really want everything to concealed under the stock style air cleaner. the way i have my air cleaner setup now is what i want stay with. it has a regular 351 air cleaner base and snorkel with a 289 hi-po lid painted ford blue and since my car came from the factory with the hole in the hood to make the scoop a functional ram air setup i want to stay with that system of couse i will add a correct style rubber air cleaner to hood seal as well.

besides all that i also have a factory shelby intake for the 351w that will go on as well but i don't want to butcher it for injector bungs on the intake runners

ForceFed70 · Jul 26, 2005

So many options!

GT40 intakes (upper and lower) are currently going for around $350 a set, so I don't know if I'll be able to afford to go that route. I'll keep watching Ebay tho, you never know when you'll get lucky.

samwe · Jul 29, 2005

65up2d8 said:
I can't stress enough that TBI is dated technology that will not give you the results you want IMO.

In theory yes, but in practice it won't make that much difference, especially compared to the carb it is replacing.
Kind of like batch fire vs sequential. Sequential really only helps pass emissions testing.

88 Fox GT · Jul 29, 2005

samwe said:
In theory yes, but in practice it won't make that much difference, especially compared to the carb it is replacing.
Kind of like batch fire vs sequential. Sequential really only helps pass emissions testing.

Sequential injection also allows you to tune the engine better, have smoother idle quality, quicker starting, and just all around better performance. Trust me, I've owned both bank fire and sequential injected vehicles.

samwe · Jul 29, 2005

Speed_Demon1965 said:
Sequential injection also allows you to tune the engine better, have smoother idle quality, quicker starting, and just all around better performance. Trust me, I've owned both bank fire and sequential injected vehicles.

I also have had both. There is almost no difference off idle.

ForceFed70 · Jul 30, 2005

Here's a good read on TBI vs sequential injection and batch vs bank injection. From what it says here, sequential is the better system... but there really isn't that much of an advantage. It allows for individual cyln tuning, but unfortunately that is useless without a seperate O2 sensor for each cyln.

http://www.msefi.com/msinfo/manual/mfuel.htm#batch

mtbdoc · Jul 30, 2005

Sleeper...hmm...I guess the Kenne Bell blower on my '66 vert doesn't quite cut it, huh?

Actually, I am interested in this topic, not from the standpoint of manifolds and such (already have a heavily ported GT40 lower) but the control itself. I have access to a EEC from '89, and found a great deal on a TwEECer. BUT, I am getting a lot of suggestions to go w/ a FAST management system.

EFI on these classics is such a sweet mod, and is practical for drivability AND performance. Just be careful that you don't get something that is disappearing from the aftermarket, especially if you are going to be needing parts.

ForceFed70 · Jul 30, 2005

mtbdoc said:
Sleeper...hmm...I guess the Kenne Bell blower on my '66 vert doesn't quite cut it, huh?

Actually, I am interested in this topic, not from the standpoint of manifolds and such (already have a heavily ported GT40 lower) but the control itself. I have access to a EEC from '89, and found a great deal on a TwEECer. BUT, I am getting a lot of suggestions to go w/ a FAST management system.

EFI on these classics is such a sweet mod, and is practical for drivability AND performance. Just be careful that you don't get something that is disappearing from the aftermarket, especially if you are going to be needing parts.

If you are looking for ECU's, check out the megasquirt. It's probably the most "tunable" ECU out there. Plus it's a do it youirself type of system..meaning it's much cheaper than the other ECU's out there. Problem is that with more functionality comes more complexity. http://www.bgsoflex.com/megasquirt.html

Which EFI option?

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