Why 4.6?

jfischer · Jul 8, 2005

300bhp/ton said:
that is a very inaccurate statement.
the ls1 is 5.7 liters with 345bhp so
345/5.7 = 60.5bhp per liter
The current 4.6 has 300bhp so
300/4.6 = 65.2bhp per liter

So infact the current 3v 4.6 mod engine is mnore efficent in specific outputs terms. An you can huff and puff all you like but these are FACTS.

I was talking about mileage efficiency

Yes, the 4.6 puts out slightly more HP per liter, but the LS1 still puts out much more power overall than the 4.6, and gets better mileage doing it.

What's really pathetic is the 4.0 V6 in the Mustang. 210 horsepower and hardly any better mileage than the 4.6 V8. I rented a brand new 2005 V6 a while back with 550 miles on the clock. Did a couple hundred mostly highway miles on it and it got <20 MPG.

oohsoobad2 · Jul 8, 2005

I for one would love to see more cubic inches in an affordable Mustang. Ive been waiting for it since 94 when they should have used a 351. Granted the Shelbys on its way but it'll be too damn expensive for me. A 330hp 3V 5.4 sounds like a good GT motor to me.

jfischer · Jul 8, 2005

oohsoobad2 said:
A 330hp 3V 5.4 sounds like a good GT motor to me.

350hp 3V 5.4 sounds even better to me

351CJ · Jul 9, 2005

svtash said:
The vette doesnt? I havent heard anything bout that yet.

My point was that the LS1 does not meet the latest emissions requirements and would most likely have it's milage reduced if it was updated to meet them.

The LS2 was not part of the discussion at that point.

jfischer · Jul 9, 2005

351CJ said:
My point was that the LS1 does not meet the latest emissions requirements and would most likely have it's milage reduced if it was updated to meet them.

Not that I don't believe you, but do you have a source for that? Given that the LS1 was a brand-new design in 1998 and not all that old, I find it difficult to believe that it has any sort of emission issues.

Rainz · Jul 9, 2005

sawman70 said:
The motor decision has to do simply with production across the line of products.

It is a MODULAR motor because many of it's parts and or dimensions transfer across a wide varity of motors. Like between a V6, a V8 and a V10.

It's about saving money and stream lining production and that is all it will ever be about.

Being able to use the same connecting rods in several different motors can save Ford Millions on just that one part.

The 4.6 in the Jag is over 400HP, no problem with too few cubes there.

It is a balancing act between power, reliabilty and cost. ...and in the end, it's the bean counters who make the decisions.

Sure Chevy has pushrods with big power, they are also giving their cars away because no one wants them. And they are losing millions. I drove by the Cobalt final assembly plant today and there was about 10 employee cars in the lot.

GM Lost more in dollars than Ford Profitted this year. Ford actually is doing OK not great but OK.

Oh, one more thing. The Corvette costs $50,000 and the Zo6 will be close to $80,000. Would you pay that for a mustang with a bigger motor when the 5.4 Cobra will only be $40,000????

Every Chevy with a Big power, Big motor costs BIG money.

GTO 30K +
SSR 40K
Corvette 50K
ZO6 80K

Now their new performance cars are a different story,

Supercharged V6's and small V8's. Hmmmmmmmmmmm??? Maybe Ford did something right and is years ahead.

You win the fanboy award for being completely ignorant. I love all brands of American cars. The new Z06 pricing has already come out, putting the base price at 65k. You're 15k off. You can get a base Vette at around 45k. The Base GTO goes at 28k. So please, don't try and blow sunshine up everyone's ass with your ignorance. GM's been in slumps before, they'll get out. So please don't post until you know what the hell you're talking about.

Mossberg · Jul 10, 2005

Mossberg said:
They have the skip shift crap and a TALL 6th gear

Requoted for the mileage arguements in posts above

SVTdriver · Jul 10, 2005

Rainz said:
You win the fanboy award for being completely ignorant. I love all brands of American cars. The new Z06 pricing has already come out, putting the base price at 65k. You're 15k off. You can get a base Vette at around 45k. The Base GTO goes at 28k. So please, don't try and blow sunshine up everyone's ass with your ignorance. GM's been in slumps before, they'll get out. So please don't post until you know what the hell you're talking about.

Speaking of knowing what you are talking about. Have you looked at the Pontiac website?
http://www.pontiac.com/gto/index.jsp?brand=home
GTO:
Base MSRP: $32,995 before incentives*
As shown: $32,995 before incentives*
Standard Features
• 6.0L Gen IV LS2 V8 engine
• Standard 4L65-E 4-speed automatic transmission1
• Rear-wheel drive and independent rear suspension
• Driver Information Center
• 8-way power-adjustable sport seats
• 200 watt Blaupunkt Surround Sound entertainment system

1 Tremec close-ratio 6-speed manual transmission is available
Maybe the sunshine has blinded you . You are however correct on the corvette.

Bob Cosby · Jul 10, 2005

HP/L is a poor metric for determining how well an engine does. That's an arguement that the import racers have used for years, and is still virtually meaningless.

A more useful measurement would be how much HP the engine makes vs how physically big and/or heavy it is. This is where the Modular motor simply does not compare well to the LSx series. Though I'm a big Mustang fan, the LSx is clearly a superior motor compared to the modular by most standards. It is physically smaller, physically lighter, overall simpler, makes more power, and is likely at least the equal of the modular for fuel efficiency. Reliability is probably pretty close between the two, though I cannot say with any certainty one way or the other.

That said, the only car I would readily buy that GM currently puts a LSx in is the Vette. The GTO is very nice, just a bit too heavy for my tastes given its power, and I'm not fond of IRS.

Rainz · Jul 10, 2005

SVTdriver said:
Speaking of knowing what you are talking about. Have you looked at the Pontiac website?
http://www.pontiac.com/gto/index.jsp?brand=home
GTO:
Base MSRP: $32,995 before incentives*
As shown: $32,995 before incentives*
Standard Features
• 6.0L Gen IV LS2 V8 engine
• Standard 4L65-E 4-speed automatic transmission1
• Rear-wheel drive and independent rear suspension
• Driver Information Center
• 8-way power-adjustable sport seats
• 200 watt Blaupunkt Surround Sound entertainment system

1 Tremec close-ratio 6-speed manual transmission is available
Maybe the sunshine has blinded you . You are however correct on the corvette.

With the rebates the GTO will go for under 30k.

SVTdriver · Jul 10, 2005

Rainz said:
With the rebates the GTO will go for under 30k.

Sure but people can negotiate a lot on prices (People have gotten x-plan or even just above invoice for the stang). So that is meaningless. Some people get better pricing some don't. MSRP is the ultimate price EVEYONE starts from.

02LS1 · Jul 10, 2005

Mossberg said:
Requoted for the mileage arguements in posts above

Did they all come with a T56 behind them?

As I said earlier, the 4L60E's (depends a little on 2.73s or 3.23s) were rated just slightly less mileage than with the T56...no CAGS, no tall 6th.

jfischer · Jul 10, 2005

Rainz said:
With the rebates the GTO will go for under 30k.

There are no rebates on the GTO, and it is not part of the GM Employee Pricing this month either.

Bob Cosby · Jul 11, 2005

02LS1 said:
Did they all come with a T56 behind them?

As I said earlier, the 4L60E's (depends a little on 2.73s or 3.23s) were rated just slightly less mileage than with the T56...no CAGS, no tall 6th.

I guess that depends upon your definition of "slightly less". A 2002 Z28 M6 was rated at 28 mpg highway. The same car with an A4 was rated at 25 mpg highway (regardless of gear).

To go one further, the 2005 GTO (with the LS2 and .57 6th gear) is rated at 25 mpg highway, while the A4 is rated 21 mpg highway.

Edit: Fixed my typos.....or postos, as this one was pretty bad.

jfischer · Jul 11, 2005

Bob Cosby said:
To go one further, the 2005 GTO (with the LS2 and .57 6th gear) is rated at 25 mpg highway, 21 mpg city.

The 2005 GTO is rated 17/25 with the M6, and 16/21 with the A4.

Bob Cosby · Jul 11, 2005

Errr....I meant to put 21 mpg highway for the A4. Thanks for the correction - I edited my post.

sawman70 · Jul 11, 2005

sawman70 said:
Excellent! Even smaller than I thought!

As far as GM, I have nothing against them, I own 2 currently. But they are not doing well. They are seriously in the red due to poor sales and 4 retirees for every 1 current employee. They have taken a loss every quarter this year and that is why they went to the employee discount. And ford has posted a consistant profit (albeit lower than they wanted). Period, end of discussion, look it up and research, watch the news etc. GM is hurting, Ford isn't. (For now, everything in our lives is temporary)

I have pleanty of GM employees and retirees in my wifes family and love to talk cars and business with them.

Choose any reason you want, the Cambirds had the big motor, they were faster and handled better but the formula didn't work and they are gone. If big motor automatically = better car, they'd still be around.

And correct my memories above, but the $'s I was off still leaves the big motor cars significantly more change than the mustang.

Hey RAINZ, don't take it so personal, is your last name General motors or something.

I'll post whatever my memory gives me to work with at the time and if I am corrected, that is cool. Read all the posts prior to spewing your stupity next time.

Your the GM hero of the hour!!!!

sawman70 · Jul 11, 2005

jfischer said:
My only point was that someone else said the LS1 wasn't very efficient, but compared to the 4.6 Ford V8 it's an efficient motor. Gets better mileage than the Ford 4.6 does, and makes more power.

True, you can't buy one today, but that doesn't change the fact that the LS1 in the Cambird is an impressive motor.

No one said it wasn't. It just wasn't enough to keep the car alive. The original point of this thread was the 4.6 is too small.

Obviously by the sales numbers, it is not.

I fail to see where this logic creates an atmosphere for argument.

SVTdriver · Jul 11, 2005

sawman70 said:
I fail to see where this logic creates an atmosphere for argument.

Because sometimes everyone needs a reason to be unhappy.

cheezsnake · Jul 12, 2005

Bob Cosby said:
HP/L is a poor metric for determining how well an engine does. That's an arguement that the import racers have used for years, and is still virtually meaningless.

A more useful measurement would be how much HP the engine makes vs how physically big and/or heavy it is...

I suppose, by this argument, we should be looking at something like (HP*Kg)/L. An interesting formula, but output efficiency has traditionally been measured in HP/displacement, like you mentioned. If someone had the mass numbers of the 4.6 and the LSx, it would be interesting to see these results.

I've always been curious about the Mustang - GM comparison. I never have quite understood why Ford has continually undersized the Mustang powerplant, compared to the GM competition. It's been this way for a long time. It really hasn't been a fair comparison since the 60's. The Camaros, Firebirds, and Corvettes (if you want to include the Corvette) have carried bigger displacement motors for years and, generally, have had more HP than the Mustang. Well, they'd better have more power -- the LS1 motor has about 65 cubic inches on the Ford 4.6! That's a lot more fuel and air potential! Just think what a Ford 5.7L 3V overhead cam engine could do to the LS1 cars. At 65.2 HP/L that would be over 370HP vs. 345HP for the LS1. For years we've been trying to compare apples to oranges ... it just doesn't work.

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