Well this may seem like an out there question...but hear me out. I have been thinking 302 all the way but recently I thought that if I find a 351 for the right price..then why not. My question is....which makes better power. I am guessing that they make near the same but the windsor has more top end and the cleveland has more torqu or visa versa. Can someone point me in the right direction here.
Windsor vs. Cleveland
- Thread starter 65straightsick
- Start date
Hack
15 Year Member
They are fairly close in many ways. The advice I've seen in many places is that if you already have one, build that one.
Sounds like you don't have either, so you can choose. The Cleveland was created by Ford to be a high performance motor. The 4V heads with closed chambers have HUGE ports and allow high rpm and high compression builds. The Cleveland doesn't circulate coolant through the intake manifold, increasing performance. The main bearings are smaller than the Windsor, allowing higher rpms. The Cleveland is also rare by comparison.
I've also heard that Cleveland blocks have a reputation for cracking - I'm not sure whether it's accurate or not. People say Clevelands have an oiling problem. They don't, it's just that they can rev really high.. past the oiling system's ability to keep up. There are some simple mods to fix the oiling issue, though I've heard conflicting opinions on how to solve them when getting up over 500 horses. My impression is that there's less of an agreement on building a Cleveland.
The Windsor is more common, and has more aftermarket options available. For a high performance Windsor, you need aftermarket heads. However, the 351W can be a great motor with the heads. Cleveland you don't have to buy heads.
I'm getting a Cleveland, so I'm biased. I'm emotionally attached to the reputation and I love the idea of using the factory heads. I think a Windsor is probably a better choice if money is the only deciding factor. The W will be around a long time, and it's easier to find.
Sounds like you don't have either, so you can choose. The Cleveland was created by Ford to be a high performance motor. The 4V heads with closed chambers have HUGE ports and allow high rpm and high compression builds. The Cleveland doesn't circulate coolant through the intake manifold, increasing performance. The main bearings are smaller than the Windsor, allowing higher rpms. The Cleveland is also rare by comparison.
I've also heard that Cleveland blocks have a reputation for cracking - I'm not sure whether it's accurate or not. People say Clevelands have an oiling problem. They don't, it's just that they can rev really high.. past the oiling system's ability to keep up. There are some simple mods to fix the oiling issue, though I've heard conflicting opinions on how to solve them when getting up over 500 horses. My impression is that there's less of an agreement on building a Cleveland.
The Windsor is more common, and has more aftermarket options available. For a high performance Windsor, you need aftermarket heads. However, the 351W can be a great motor with the heads. Cleveland you don't have to buy heads.
I'm getting a Cleveland, so I'm biased. I'm emotionally attached to the reputation and I love the idea of using the factory heads. I think a Windsor is probably a better choice if money is the only deciding factor. The W will be around a long time, and it's easier to find.
dodgestang
Active Member
This is a VERY popular topic. Here is a cut and paste of a response I made on another board just last week:
Debunking some other 351c myths you will hear (not here) but out in the world when you talk to people.
2v vs 4v
The 2v heads are 'historically' known for better performance in street applications. The most common statement I hear is "4v heads and a 351c will have no low end"
While the above statement is partially true it is very misleading, many people who know little about the 351c latch onto this statement and like to hammer Cleveland fans with it.
A better statement would be that 4v heads produce a smaller % of their total power at lower RPMs than their 2v brothers. That is not to say they do not produce good off the line performance, but as a function of their total performance they perform much better at higher RPMs.
If you are looking to build a 351c and have 4v heads, you can really have a lot fun by stroking. While the 351w crew HAS to buy new heads when they build a stroker, the C runs great with the stock heads. As stated previously, you just upgrade the valves to one piece and you are done. You don’t have to port or polish (you can if you want) and the 4v heads will support the flow requirement of your now larger cubic inch motor.
I can use my own build as an example, with what I would call a mild hydro cam (.5885 intake/.5887 exhaust) and a 408 stroker setup I was able to make 395 RWHP through an AOD (10 inch 3k stall) and 9 inch rear.
Cheaper to build a Windsor
One of the most common arguments you will hear about building a 351w over a 351c is not necessarily parts availability but parts costs. Items like intakes, pistons, crank, etc tend to cost a couple dollars more than a corresponding W piece (take my oil pan for example…it was $25 more than the W part IIRC). As a general rule though, I always say to build what you own. If you have a 351w and you want to build it up, after you pay for heads the total price will be right around the same if you built up a 351c (since you didn’t have to buy heads). To state it another way, if you factor in cost to source blocks and other incenditals to build one when you already own the other, it will end up costing more (in general) to meet the same power numbers as if you had simply built on the platform you already had.
The Aftermarket is much better for a 351w
Also not true, there is an abundance of top-notch parts coming from OZ and most are readily available in the US these days (read full thread here: http://corner-carvers.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9186). I prefer to look at total performance potential than get muddled up looking for red herrings from both sides of the camp as to which motor will perform better if we do this or that. I like to boil down the comparison as follows (perhaps an oversimplification but it works for me):
Stock 351c vs Stock 351w – 351c wins
Stock 351c vs Mild 351w - hard to call
Mild 351c vs Mild 351w - 351c wins
Mild 351c vs Mod 351w – 351w wins
Mod 351c vs Mod 351w – the one who spent the most wins (or more precisely, the one who spend the most time researching and understanding how certain parts will interact with each other and developed an action plan to assembly a motor with a clear goal in mind will win)
Debunking some other 351c myths you will hear (not here) but out in the world when you talk to people.
2v vs 4v
The 2v heads are 'historically' known for better performance in street applications. The most common statement I hear is "4v heads and a 351c will have no low end"
While the above statement is partially true it is very misleading, many people who know little about the 351c latch onto this statement and like to hammer Cleveland fans with it.
A better statement would be that 4v heads produce a smaller % of their total power at lower RPMs than their 2v brothers. That is not to say they do not produce good off the line performance, but as a function of their total performance they perform much better at higher RPMs.
If you are looking to build a 351c and have 4v heads, you can really have a lot fun by stroking. While the 351w crew HAS to buy new heads when they build a stroker, the C runs great with the stock heads. As stated previously, you just upgrade the valves to one piece and you are done. You don’t have to port or polish (you can if you want) and the 4v heads will support the flow requirement of your now larger cubic inch motor.
I can use my own build as an example, with what I would call a mild hydro cam (.5885 intake/.5887 exhaust) and a 408 stroker setup I was able to make 395 RWHP through an AOD (10 inch 3k stall) and 9 inch rear.
Cheaper to build a Windsor
One of the most common arguments you will hear about building a 351w over a 351c is not necessarily parts availability but parts costs. Items like intakes, pistons, crank, etc tend to cost a couple dollars more than a corresponding W piece (take my oil pan for example…it was $25 more than the W part IIRC). As a general rule though, I always say to build what you own. If you have a 351w and you want to build it up, after you pay for heads the total price will be right around the same if you built up a 351c (since you didn’t have to buy heads). To state it another way, if you factor in cost to source blocks and other incenditals to build one when you already own the other, it will end up costing more (in general) to meet the same power numbers as if you had simply built on the platform you already had.
The Aftermarket is much better for a 351w
Also not true, there is an abundance of top-notch parts coming from OZ and most are readily available in the US these days (read full thread here: http://corner-carvers.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9186). I prefer to look at total performance potential than get muddled up looking for red herrings from both sides of the camp as to which motor will perform better if we do this or that. I like to boil down the comparison as follows (perhaps an oversimplification but it works for me):
Stock 351c vs Stock 351w – 351c wins
Stock 351c vs Mild 351w - hard to call
Mild 351c vs Mild 351w - 351c wins
Mild 351c vs Mod 351w – 351w wins
Mod 351c vs Mod 351w – the one who spent the most wins (or more precisely, the one who spend the most time researching and understanding how certain parts will interact with each other and developed an action plan to assembly a motor with a clear goal in mind will win)
BrutalStang
New Member
back in the 60's and 70's at least, the clevland was always the motor to have. it always produced more power and took better to mods, if memory serves here the windsor V8's were for trucks that they then put into cars as a cheaper version of the 351.
Sorry to keep this going but I had to chime in.
I'm now completely my 351c 2v build up, and I have to say I'm glad I did. While my heads needed some work, the stock heads with the new valves, springs and 3A valve job will perform better than any other stock heads ford made (Excluding 4v). I'm saving a lot of money this route, and I've been able to find parts easily. Sure sometimes they are a few dollars more, but I love the cleveland's rarity enough to continue spending. Now my car is an original Cleveland car, therefore I wouldn't ever swap it. If your car came with a 351W leave it. Came with a Cleveland, leave it. Anything else, it's up to what your budget can support. It's really hard to determine, but I believe that once you past the 450-500 horsepower mark, its all up in the air.
Sorry for the rant.
I'm now completely my 351c 2v build up, and I have to say I'm glad I did. While my heads needed some work, the stock heads with the new valves, springs and 3A valve job will perform better than any other stock heads ford made (Excluding 4v). I'm saving a lot of money this route, and I've been able to find parts easily. Sure sometimes they are a few dollars more, but I love the cleveland's rarity enough to continue spending. Now my car is an original Cleveland car, therefore I wouldn't ever swap it. If your car came with a 351W leave it. Came with a Cleveland, leave it. Anything else, it's up to what your budget can support. It's really hard to determine, but I believe that once you past the 450-500 horsepower mark, its all up in the air.
Sorry for the rant.
Before aftermarket heads were introduced, from a performance standpoint it was no contest.
With the cost of even stock valve jobs with hardened seats and one piece valves these days, aftermarket heads don't sound that expensive anymore. Both motors can be great, which settles nothing.
With the cost of even stock valve jobs with hardened seats and one piece valves these days, aftermarket heads don't sound that expensive anymore. Both motors can be great, which settles nothing.
If you still live in the backwoods such as I, it may still be way cheaper to have a set of factory heads redone than buying aftermarket heads. One of the main reasons I'm using my C; just a few hundred bucks into the heads and they're ready to go. I'm sure "modern" machinist pricing makes it a level playing field, but if you're machine shop prices are still locked into 1982 like mine are, factory heads can still be done relatively cheaply.
I'd also like to add to Dodgestangs post, of which I agree, that the 2V head is still a great head as well, with valves bigger than any SBC that I'm familiar with ever got (and get in aftermarket heads as well). I'm using them on my stroker because they're powerband fits more of what I'm looking for; they gave me the most area under the curve in my desired powerband (sub 6500).
I'd also like to add to Dodgestangs post, of which I agree, that the 2V head is still a great head as well, with valves bigger than any SBC that I'm familiar with ever got (and get in aftermarket heads as well). I'm using them on my stroker because they're powerband fits more of what I'm looking for; they gave me the most area under the curve in my desired powerband (sub 6500).
Well like the sig says I have the I6 now but when the suspension and rearend is swapped out...the motor is up in the air. It sounds to me that the clevelands biggest downfall is power in upper RPMS...seeing as I wouldn't race except maybe the occasional challenge from a buddy....that wouldn't be a problem. Thanks again guys.
Hack
15 Year Member
We must have missed that part of explaining it to you. The Cleveland's biggest asset is huge power in sky high rpms. As Dodgestang and others stated, some people say its low end torque isn't that great, but those people are wrong. It's just that the high end is so amazing, the low-end doesn't seem as great in comparison.65straightsick said:
The factory Windsor runs out of steam early.
jerry S
New Member
I vote for windsor
windsor has casino gambling and legalized prostitution. WIth the current exchange rate, you get more bang for your buck.
Cleveland has the rock and roll hall of fame and not much else.
windsor has casino gambling and legalized prostitution. WIth the current exchange rate, you get more bang for your buck.
Cleveland has the rock and roll hall of fame and not much else.
LOL @ Jerry! Don't forget cuban cigars!!!
The 2v cleveland heads have great ports for street use, some say better than the 4v because the size is more realistic for street type performance. But the knock is the size of the comustion chamber, which is much larger than the 4v heads.
To maintain compression, many people are going to the aussie heads, which have the good 2v head port size and 4v head combustion chamber. People are importing them for a fairly reasonable fee, if I am not mistaken.
The 2v cleveland heads have great ports for street use, some say better than the 4v because the size is more realistic for street type performance. But the knock is the size of the comustion chamber, which is much larger than the 4v heads.
To maintain compression, many people are going to the aussie heads, which have the good 2v head port size and 4v head combustion chamber. People are importing them for a fairly reasonable fee, if I am not mistaken.
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