RoadKill96
New Member
Dont forget to check your ACT sensor mine had a poping sound in the intake and ran like crap when first started it up replaced the ACT and now it runs fine hope that helps
Anybody get horrible driveability for about 30 seconds after a cold start?
- Thread starter RacEoHolic330
- Start date
MAC'n89Blckstng
Active Member
My car has been doing the same exact thing scott!!!! I will start it, idle for about 30 seconds, drive it to class thats 2 blocks away and half way there it will stutter and pop out the intake unless I give it full throttle. And if I let it idle while its doing this its alot smoother and doesn't sound right. I was thinkin a bad EGR maybe but idk. I'm probably going to put an egr delete on my car to see if that helps.
I wouldn't waste your time just yet. I replaced my EGR and sensor to see if that was the problem. Cleared the code I was getting, but didn't fix the problem.
I did the KOEO test and got code 67 which is a neutral safety circuit failure. That was expected because I have the NSS shorted for my remote start system on the car. The problem is that the computer won't do a KOER test. I was doing some reading and I found that having a NSS problem could keep it from proceeding with the KOER test. I cut the shorted wire so that the NSS is functional, but the car still won't do the KOER test. I'm probably going to have to disconnect the battery to clear the code 67 but that means that I'll have to put some miles on the car so the computer can run through its cycle a few times.
Also, I was paying close attention to my PMS and the right o2 sensor is showing no voltage at all. The left o2 shows voltage switching between rich and lean and it responds when I tap the throttle, but the right will still do nothing.
Also, I was paying close attention to my PMS and the right o2 sensor is showing no voltage at all. The left o2 shows voltage switching between rich and lean and it responds when I tap the throttle, but the right will still do nothing.
The NSS code 67 can be bypassed for testing. You will need to temporarily ground pin 30 to the chassis.
The computer wants to make sure the A/C is off due to the added load on the engine for the engine running tests. It also checks to see that the transmission is in Neutral and the clutch depressed (T5, T56, Tremec 3550 & TKO)). This prevents the car from being driven while the computer is in test mode. Key On Engine Running test mode takes the throttle control away from the driver for several tests. This could prove hazardous if the computer was jumpered into test mode and then driven.
The computer wants to make sure the A/C is off due to the added load on the engine for the engine running tests. It also checks to see that the transmission is in Neutral and the clutch depressed (T5, T56, Tremec 3550 & TKO)). This prevents the car from being driven while the computer is in test mode. Key On Engine Running test mode takes the throttle control away from the driver for several tests. This could prove hazardous if the computer was jumpered into test mode and then driven.
Okay, I'll ground pin 30 and give it another shot. I'm probably going to wind up buying a new o2 sensor also.
It couldn't be the dizzy, I just replaced that a few months ago. It probably doesn't even have 1000 miles on it.
Sorry, missed your post. Yes, the air pump is removed. But as far as I remember this problem didn't occur until a long time after it was removed
Update: Last time I did the KOEO test, I forgot that I unhooked the battery the night before, so I decided to do the test again today. In addition to the code 67 I got before, a few CM codes decided to come out of the woodwork:
29 - Insufficient input from vehicle speed sensor.
33 - EGR valve opening not detected.
41 - HEGO sensor circuit indicates system lean (right side)
66- MAF sensor went below 0.4 volts during the last 80 warm-up cycles, Transmission oil temperature sensor output was less than Self-Test minimum value of 0.15 volts.
Code 41 pretty much confirms that my right o2 is bad, I have a new one on the way already. For code 66, I'll clean my MAF and check all the wiring for the right voltages. Not sure what the tranny oil sensor is about. I'm going to have to do a little research to find out what to do about the other two codes...
29 - Insufficient input from vehicle speed sensor.
33 - EGR valve opening not detected.
41 - HEGO sensor circuit indicates system lean (right side)
66- MAF sensor went below 0.4 volts during the last 80 warm-up cycles, Transmission oil temperature sensor output was less than Self-Test minimum value of 0.15 volts.
Code 41 pretty much confirms that my right o2 is bad, I have a new one on the way already. For code 66, I'll clean my MAF and check all the wiring for the right voltages. Not sure what the tranny oil sensor is about. I'm going to have to do a little research to find out what to do about the other two codes...
Code 29 - Vehicle Speed Sensor (VSS) is an electronic sender mounted on the speedo pickup gear on the trans. It works the cruse control for both 5 speed and auto trans cars. The VSS is used to tell the computer to speed up the idle as you slow to a stop. This helps keep the engine from stalling when you slow down for a stop sign or stop light.
Check to see if the electrical connector is plugged into it. Clean the connector & contacts with non flammable brake parts cleaner prior to replacing the sensor, as that may fix the problem. The sensor cost is under $30 and it is easy to replace.
Code 33 - Insufficient EGR flow detected.
Look for vacuum leaks, cracked vacuum lines, failed EGR vacuum regulator. Check to see if you have 10” of vacuum at the EGR vacuum connection coming from the intake manifold. Look for electrical signal at the vacuum regulator solenoid valves located on the rear of the passenger side wheel well. Using a test light across the electrical connector, it should flicker as the electrical signal flickers. Remember that the computer does not source any power, but provides the ground necessary to complete the circuit. That means one side of the circuit will always be hot, and the other side will go to ground or below 1 volt as the computer switches on that circuit.
Check for resistance between the brown/lt green wire on the EGR sensor and pin 27 on the computer: you should have less than 1 ohm.
See the following website for some help from Tmoss (diagram designer) & Stang&2Birds (website host)
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/fuel-alt-links-ign-ac.gif
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/88-91eecPinout.gif
EGR test procedure courtesy of cjones
to check the EGR valve:
bring the engine to normal temp.
connect a vacuum pump to the EGR Valve
apply 5in vacuum to the valve.
if engine stumbled or died then EGR Valve and passage(there is a passageway through the heads and intake) are good.
if engine did NOT stumble or die then either the EGR Valve is bad and/or the passage is blocked.
if engine stumbled, connect vacuum gauge to the hose coming off of the EGR Valve
snap throttle to 2500 RPM (remember snap the throttle don't hold it there).
did the vacuum gauge show about 2-5 in vacuum?
if not, check for manifold vacuum at the EGR vacuum valve.
if you have manifold vacuum then connect vacuum gauge to the EGR valve side of the vacuum valve and snap throttle to 2500 RPM.
should read about 2- 5 in vacuum
The operation of the EGR vacuum regulator can be checked by using a test light applied across the wiring connector. Jumper the computer into self test mode and turn the key on but do not start the engine. You will hear all the actuators (including the EVR vacuum regulator) cycle. Watch for the light to flicker: that means the computer has signaled the EGR vacuum regulator successfully.
Code 41 or 91 - O2 indicates system lean. Look for a vacuum leak or failing O2 sensor.
The computer sees a lean mixture signal coming from the O2 sensors and tries to compensate by adding more fuel. Many times the end result is an engine that runs pig rich and stinks of unburned fuel.
The following is a Quote from Charles O. Probst, Ford fuel Injection & Electronic Engine control:
"When the mixture is lean, the exhaust gas has oxygen, about the same amount as the ambient air. So the sensor will generate less than 400 Millivolts. Remember lean = less voltage.
When the mixture is rich, there's less oxygen in the exhaust than in the ambient air , so voltage is generated between the two sides of the tip. The voltage is greater than 600 millivolts. Remember rich = more voltage.
Here's a tip: the newer the sensor, the more the voltage changes, swinging from as low as 0.1 volt to as much as 0.9 volt. As an oxygen sensor ages, the voltage changes get smaller and slower - the voltage change lags behind the change in exhaust gas oxygen.
Because the oxygen sensor generates its own voltage, never apply voltage and never measure resistance of the sensor circuit. To measure voltage signals, use an analog voltmeter with a high input impedance, at least 10 megohms. Remember, a digital voltmeter will average a changing voltage." End Quote
Testing the O2 sensors
Measuring the O2 sensor voltage at the computer will give you a good idea of how well they are working. You'll have to pull the passenger side kick panel off to gain access to the computer connector. Remove the plastic wiring cover to get to the back side of the wiring. Use a safety pin or paper clip to probe the connections from the rear. The computer pins are 29 (LH O2 with a dark green/pink wire) and 43 (RH O2 with a dark blue/pink wire). Use the ground next to the computer to ground the voltmeter.
Testing the O2 sensor wiring harness
Most of the common multimeters have a resistance scale. Be sure the O2 sensors are disconnected and measure the resistance from the O2 sensor body harness to the pins on the computer.
Note that all resistance tests must be done with power off. Measuring resistance with a circuit powered on will give false readings and possibly damage the meter. Do not attempt to measure the resistance of the O2 sensors, it may damage them.
The O2 sensor ground (orange wire with a ring terminal on it) is in the wiring harness for the fuel injection wiring. I grounded mine to one of the intake manifold bolts
Replace the O2 sensors in pairs if replacement is indicated. If one is weak or bad, the other one probably isn't far behind.
Code 66 MAF below minimum test voltage.
Insufficient or no voltage from MAF. Dirty MAF element, bad MAF, bad MAF wiring, missing power to MAF. Check for missing +12 volts on this circuit. Check the two links for a wiring diagram to help you find the red wire for computer power relay switched +12 volts. Check for 12 volts between the red and black wires on the MAF heater (usually pins A & B). while the connector is plugged into the MAF. This may require the use of a couple of safety pins to probe the MAF connector from the back side of it.
There are three parts in a MAF: the heater, the sensor element and the amplifier. The heater heats the MAF sensor element causing the resistance to increase. The amplifier buffers the MAF output signal and has a resistor that is laser trimmed to provide an output range compatible with the computer's load tables.
The MAF element is secured by 2 screws & has 1 wiring connector. To clean the element, remove it from the MAF housing and spray it down with electronic parts cleaner or non-inflammable brake parts cleaner (same stuff in a bigger can and cheaper too).
The MAF output varies with RPM which causes the airflow to increase or decease. The increase of air across the MAF sensor element causes it to cool, allowing more voltage to pass and telling the computer to increase the fuel flow. A decrease in airflow causes the MAF sensor element to get warmer, decreasing the voltage and reducing the fuel flow. Measure the MAF output at pins C & D on the MAF connector (dark blue/orange and tan/light blue) or at pins 50 & 9 on the computer. Be sure to measure the sensor output by measuring across the pins and not between the pins and ground.
At idle = approximately .6 volt
20 MPH = approximately 1.10 volt
40 MPH = approximately 1.70 volt
60 MPH = approximately 2.10 volt
Check the resistance of the MAF signal wiring. Pin D on the MAF and pin 50 on the computer (dark blue/orange wire) should be less than 2 ohms. Pin C on the MAF and pin 9 on the computer (tan/light blue wire) should be less than 2 ohms.
There should be a minimum of 10K ohms between either pin C or D on the MAF wiring connector and ground. Make your measurement with the MAF disconnected from the wiring harness.
See the following website for some help from Tmoss (diagram designer) & Stang&2Birds (website host) for help on 88-95 wiring http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/
Ignition switch wiring
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/IgnitionSwitchWiring.gif
Fuel pump, alternator, ignition & A/C wiring
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/fuel-alt-links-ign-ac.gif
Computer,. actuator & sensor wiring
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/88-91_5.0_EEC_Wiring_Diagram.gif
Fuse panel layout
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/MustangFuseBox.gif
Vacuum routing
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/mustangFoxFordVacuumDiagram.jpg
Check to see if the electrical connector is plugged into it. Clean the connector & contacts with non flammable brake parts cleaner prior to replacing the sensor, as that may fix the problem. The sensor cost is under $30 and it is easy to replace.
Code 33 - Insufficient EGR flow detected.
Look for vacuum leaks, cracked vacuum lines, failed EGR vacuum regulator. Check to see if you have 10” of vacuum at the EGR vacuum connection coming from the intake manifold. Look for electrical signal at the vacuum regulator solenoid valves located on the rear of the passenger side wheel well. Using a test light across the electrical connector, it should flicker as the electrical signal flickers. Remember that the computer does not source any power, but provides the ground necessary to complete the circuit. That means one side of the circuit will always be hot, and the other side will go to ground or below 1 volt as the computer switches on that circuit.
Check for resistance between the brown/lt green wire on the EGR sensor and pin 27 on the computer: you should have less than 1 ohm.
See the following website for some help from Tmoss (diagram designer) & Stang&2Birds (website host)
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/fuel-alt-links-ign-ac.gif
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/88-91eecPinout.gif
EGR test procedure courtesy of cjones
to check the EGR valve:
bring the engine to normal temp.
connect a vacuum pump to the EGR Valve
apply 5in vacuum to the valve.
if engine stumbled or died then EGR Valve and passage(there is a passageway through the heads and intake) are good.
if engine did NOT stumble or die then either the EGR Valve is bad and/or the passage is blocked.
if engine stumbled, connect vacuum gauge to the hose coming off of the EGR Valve
snap throttle to 2500 RPM (remember snap the throttle don't hold it there).
did the vacuum gauge show about 2-5 in vacuum?
if not, check for manifold vacuum at the EGR vacuum valve.
if you have manifold vacuum then connect vacuum gauge to the EGR valve side of the vacuum valve and snap throttle to 2500 RPM.
should read about 2- 5 in vacuum
The operation of the EGR vacuum regulator can be checked by using a test light applied across the wiring connector. Jumper the computer into self test mode and turn the key on but do not start the engine. You will hear all the actuators (including the EVR vacuum regulator) cycle. Watch for the light to flicker: that means the computer has signaled the EGR vacuum regulator successfully.
Code 41 or 91 - O2 indicates system lean. Look for a vacuum leak or failing O2 sensor.
The computer sees a lean mixture signal coming from the O2 sensors and tries to compensate by adding more fuel. Many times the end result is an engine that runs pig rich and stinks of unburned fuel.
The following is a Quote from Charles O. Probst, Ford fuel Injection & Electronic Engine control:
"When the mixture is lean, the exhaust gas has oxygen, about the same amount as the ambient air. So the sensor will generate less than 400 Millivolts. Remember lean = less voltage.
When the mixture is rich, there's less oxygen in the exhaust than in the ambient air , so voltage is generated between the two sides of the tip. The voltage is greater than 600 millivolts. Remember rich = more voltage.
Here's a tip: the newer the sensor, the more the voltage changes, swinging from as low as 0.1 volt to as much as 0.9 volt. As an oxygen sensor ages, the voltage changes get smaller and slower - the voltage change lags behind the change in exhaust gas oxygen.
Because the oxygen sensor generates its own voltage, never apply voltage and never measure resistance of the sensor circuit. To measure voltage signals, use an analog voltmeter with a high input impedance, at least 10 megohms. Remember, a digital voltmeter will average a changing voltage." End Quote
Testing the O2 sensors
Measuring the O2 sensor voltage at the computer will give you a good idea of how well they are working. You'll have to pull the passenger side kick panel off to gain access to the computer connector. Remove the plastic wiring cover to get to the back side of the wiring. Use a safety pin or paper clip to probe the connections from the rear. The computer pins are 29 (LH O2 with a dark green/pink wire) and 43 (RH O2 with a dark blue/pink wire). Use the ground next to the computer to ground the voltmeter.
Testing the O2 sensor wiring harness
Most of the common multimeters have a resistance scale. Be sure the O2 sensors are disconnected and measure the resistance from the O2 sensor body harness to the pins on the computer.
Note that all resistance tests must be done with power off. Measuring resistance with a circuit powered on will give false readings and possibly damage the meter. Do not attempt to measure the resistance of the O2 sensors, it may damage them.
The O2 sensor ground (orange wire with a ring terminal on it) is in the wiring harness for the fuel injection wiring. I grounded mine to one of the intake manifold bolts
Replace the O2 sensors in pairs if replacement is indicated. If one is weak or bad, the other one probably isn't far behind.
Code 66 MAF below minimum test voltage.
Insufficient or no voltage from MAF. Dirty MAF element, bad MAF, bad MAF wiring, missing power to MAF. Check for missing +12 volts on this circuit. Check the two links for a wiring diagram to help you find the red wire for computer power relay switched +12 volts. Check for 12 volts between the red and black wires on the MAF heater (usually pins A & B). while the connector is plugged into the MAF. This may require the use of a couple of safety pins to probe the MAF connector from the back side of it.
There are three parts in a MAF: the heater, the sensor element and the amplifier. The heater heats the MAF sensor element causing the resistance to increase. The amplifier buffers the MAF output signal and has a resistor that is laser trimmed to provide an output range compatible with the computer's load tables.
The MAF element is secured by 2 screws & has 1 wiring connector. To clean the element, remove it from the MAF housing and spray it down with electronic parts cleaner or non-inflammable brake parts cleaner (same stuff in a bigger can and cheaper too).
The MAF output varies with RPM which causes the airflow to increase or decease. The increase of air across the MAF sensor element causes it to cool, allowing more voltage to pass and telling the computer to increase the fuel flow. A decrease in airflow causes the MAF sensor element to get warmer, decreasing the voltage and reducing the fuel flow. Measure the MAF output at pins C & D on the MAF connector (dark blue/orange and tan/light blue) or at pins 50 & 9 on the computer. Be sure to measure the sensor output by measuring across the pins and not between the pins and ground.
At idle = approximately .6 volt
20 MPH = approximately 1.10 volt
40 MPH = approximately 1.70 volt
60 MPH = approximately 2.10 volt
Check the resistance of the MAF signal wiring. Pin D on the MAF and pin 50 on the computer (dark blue/orange wire) should be less than 2 ohms. Pin C on the MAF and pin 9 on the computer (tan/light blue wire) should be less than 2 ohms.
There should be a minimum of 10K ohms between either pin C or D on the MAF wiring connector and ground. Make your measurement with the MAF disconnected from the wiring harness.
See the following website for some help from Tmoss (diagram designer) & Stang&2Birds (website host) for help on 88-95 wiring http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/
Ignition switch wiring
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/IgnitionSwitchWiring.gif
Fuel pump, alternator, ignition & A/C wiring
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/fuel-alt-links-ign-ac.gif
Computer,. actuator & sensor wiring
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/88-91_5.0_EEC_Wiring_Diagram.gif
Fuse panel layout
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/MustangFuseBox.gif
Vacuum routing
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/mustangFoxFordVacuumDiagram.jpg
thanks jrichker, I was doing some searches for these codes and saw your replies for other people, its real nice to have all the info in one spot though.
I found that the reason for the code 29 is because my car is an 88 and I converted it to mass air, so im guessing I can ignore that code? I don't have any problems with stalling when coasting to a stop.
I found that the reason for the code 29 is because my car is an 88 and I converted it to mass air, so im guessing I can ignore that code? I don't have any problems with stalling when coasting to a stop.
Today, I changed my bad o2 sensor and cleaned my MAF sensor with brake cleaner. Started the car up and my right o2 voltage was finally jumping around on the PMS. I started driving the car without letting it warm up at all and it didn't give me any problems. I let it cool down for a while and drove it again without any signs of stumbling. I'm going to drive it again tomorrow and see if it's still okay. My problem might have been as simple as a bad sensor.
Roland69
Sergeant Tangnet
Black1987Stang
Active Member
Sorry to revive an old thread but did this fix your problem Scott? I got the same thing going on.
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