Don't sell your Fox

I wonder why people spend 100's of thousands in cars from the 40's, 50's and 60's or even 30 grand for a classic Mustang then... It's just a chunk of metal with parts attached to it :lol: No big deal... I admit it is better to daily drive a NEW car, maybe not a Mustang if you can't afford it but whatever... I'm currently driving my hatchback and selling the Accent so I can buy performance parts... This fall I'll get a POS beater.
 
I wonder why people spend 100's of thousands in cars from the 40's, 50's and 60's or even 30 grand for a classic Mustang then... It's just a chunk of metal with parts attached to it :lol: No big deal... I admit it is better to daily drive a NEW car, maybe not a Mustang if you can't afford it but whatever... I'm currently driving my hatchback and selling the Accent so I can buy performance parts... This fall I'll get a POS beater.



Yeah it's like the Shelby Super Snake....Carrol Shelby's own twin supercharged Shelby Cobra...just sold for $5.5 million. Now, i don't think it was worth THAT but it goes with my example of how worth is what's important to the owner. To the guy who bought that car, it's better than anything new he could've bought, and it sure as hell didn't come with a warranty :D
 
Every single issue you just mentioned you WILL eventually get with any car, so what's the difference? Also yes, i AM only focusing on performance because the rest i can take care of just as easily as another guy can buy a new car. When the average guy who bought the '07 Mustang runs out of warranty and his car breaks down, does he have the tools and knowhow to fix that cutting edge technology? Won't he be faced with the same issues that i am right now, only he'll likely be forced to go to a dealership to get his fixed...while i can do mine myself for a FRACTION of the cost.

C'mon man you can't tell me that my car is going to run any less reliably than a new car if i build a new engine for it. All of the low points are inevitable....with any car. So in the long run, which is truely what should matter....NOT a warranty that's going to expire eventually and you're going to be stuck doing all the things on your own that i'm doing with my car now....the only thing that matters should be what you are going to be happy with.

Warranties are useless IMO unless you run across a factory defect. If you buy a new Mustang, it's going to be stock or mostly stock until you pay it off in 5 years unless you want to void the warranty, and chances are in 5 years your warranty is going to be expired anyways right?

So here's the question.....why are people buying new Mustangs? Not your average person, why are CAR GUYS buying new Mustangs? For the warranty? Probably not since most of them go right out and slap a blower on them and void the warranty (at least most guys around here do).

Basically, "better" is an opinion...period. All the technology in the world doesn't necessarily make a car better. Tell that to the guys who are restoring real vintage cars.....tell the owner of a '69 429 Boss Mustang that the new Mustang is better....he'll probably laugh, even though so many things might be more user friendly, like gas mileage or ride quality....who cares? Those are things that cater to taste and taste alone. In the end both cars are going to need maintenance, but something else nobody is taking into consideration is the PRICE of that maintenance...like i said earlier how many people who own new Mustangs can fix ANYTHING that goes wrong with them? Very very few...most will rely on dealerships or tuning shops to fix their cars, while i'm out in the garage doing it myself saving myself a fortune in cash and getting enjoyment out of knowing that i'm self sufficient with MY car.



So....what's better? Who cares? It comes down to the owner and what you want out of the deal.

Damn i hope this gets read...lol

Again, this boils down to the question. Aside from the personal attachment Fox owners (in this case) have invested in their car, does it make more sense to you to own the car during the course of the first half of its life, or the last half? Yes, problems will arise with any car as it ages, but problems will arise a lot more frequent on a car with age and mileage, than a car without. That’s just Father Time having his way with you? :shrug:
And I’m not so sure why you consider the new Mustangs so “exotic” by nature. Your average Joe can do all of the maintenance and general repair work by himself, without the aid of a dealership….even after the warranty runs out! I mean, you’ve set the stereotype that the kind of people that buy these new Mustangs, aren’t the type that can perform their own maintenance, right? Aside from that being a totally unfounded generalization, what makes you think if a person is unable to change the oil in their S197, they’d fare any better doing it in a Fox? I mean….incompetent, is incompetent, right? So by that reasoning, what difference does it make which car they choose to drive? If they can’t do it, they can’t do it. :scratch: But if you’re somewhat automotively inclined, performing general maintenance on an S197 is no different then doing so on an old Fox. Things like oil changes, radiator flushes, brakes jobs, bearings, seals, etc can all be done with hand tools, in your driveway, just like they can with the earlier generation cars. Only when larger problems like transmission or engine issues arise does the need for any special tools or skill arise. In which case, you’ve still got 3-years and 60,000km you don’t need to worry about it. After that, I’m sure in the rare case that something catastrophic does happen, the S197 owner will do just as the Fox owner did at the time his car was just out of warrant and hit the local wrecking yard for used components. I mean….why would you think things would be any different? :shrug:

As far as you building a new engine for it, I’m sure it would run and perform just fine. And I’m also sure you could build it up to make all kinds of ungodly power. But unless you’re going to skimp out on the basics and only change the necessities, it’s not going to be any inexpensive feat either. You’d be surprised what the cost of the supporting components along with all those high dollar performance parts are going to cost you when building a motor from scratch….even an OHV. But you’ve still got the wear and tear on the other items on the car to deal with. What do you do when right after you’ve installed your newly built $5,000-$10,000 engine (assuming you chose to build a real performer using all new parts, since we know that old parts have a tendency to fail), your transmission takes a dump, or your rear end starts to howl, or your front end starts to clunk. No problem….just fix them too, right. After all, what’s another $500 here and $1,000 there, right? But before you know it…..you’ve already surpassed the value of the car in repairs and you’re still nowhere near a fully rebuilt Mustang. Oh, and on top of that, that high performance, high dollar engine you just built, doesn’t have any sort of warranty on it either. So factor that into your decision as well.

Contrary to popular belief (and I’m sure 25thmustang already mentioned this) performance bolt-ons will not void your warranty on a new S197. Even Superchargers will allow your guarantee to remain in tact as long as a certified Ford Dealership performs the install. Sure, you’re going to end up paying for the labor, which can add up, but that’s a small price to pay in the event something does go wrong and it’s all covered by the dealership. That’s more than I can say for the average do-it-yourselfer who chooses to install his high end components in his back yard. :shrug:

Look, if the general argument are going to be based on nostalgia, personal taste, the need to own a rough, edgy, unrefined car or plain and simply because you just can’t bare the thought of parting with your Fox, I can totally understand that and also understand that no line of practical reasoning would make sense to you. But from all other perspectives, the newer car is always the better option. It doesn’t have to be brand new mind you, but as new as you’re able to afford none the less. Some will argue that the car payment is too much, but if you can afford to own, drive and maintain a Fox (or any sports car for that matter) on a daily basis, then you can afford the payment on a newer car. It’s that simple.
I wonder why people spend 100's of thousands in cars from the 40's, 50's and 60's or even 30 grand for a classic Mustang then... It's just a chunk of metal with parts attached to it :lol: No big deal... I admit it is better to daily drive a NEW car, maybe not a Mustang if you can't afford it but whatever... I'm currently driving my hatchback and selling the Accent so I can buy performance parts... This fall I'll get a POS beater.
Those are collectors cars....which ranks right up their with "nostalgic value". Totally different ball of wax. And no Fox (save for some special models) is ever going to be considered a collectors car, simply because they aren't that rare. Look at the production numbers on a 60's Mustang, which were not only the originals, but that all in all only shared the same body style for anywhere from 3 to 5-years and compare them to the hundreds of thousands of Fox cars that rolled off the assembly line during the 80's (a low point for the automotive industry in general) with the same chassis for 25+ years and you'll understand why. ;)

Yeah it's like the Shelby Super Snake....Carrol Shelby's own twin supercharged Shelby Cobra...just sold for $5.5 million. Now, i don't think it was worth THAT but it goes with my example of how worth is what's important to the owner. To the guy who bought that car, it's better than anything new he could've bought, and it sure as hell didn't come with a warranty :D

I'll tell you right now, the owner didn't pay for the car in that instance, he paid for the name. Carrol Shelby could own a Ford escort and have it go for $100,000. :D
 
I work in an office and never tasted great-poop-on? I also owned 3 fox bodies, can afford a newer one such as 2003 (not a 2007 yet)... What does this have to do with "don't sell your fox" thread?

Some of us choose problems such as owning a fox for a reason :D Like running pretty much 14 flat with MPH to run in the mid/high 13's with the type of bolt-on a 2 year old can do (CAI, pulleys, headers) :D Piss off people with the new "all-mighty" car with a ratty old clunking fox body 5.oh yeah baby :)

Right on brother:rlaugh:
 
I'll tell you right now, the owner didn't pay for the car in that instance, he paid for the name. Carrol Shelby could own a Ford escort and have it go for $100,000. :D


I dunno man....it's one of only 2 that ever existed and the other one is long gone and destroyed so it's literally a piece of automotive history. Yeah, the name has a lot to do with it but it's also the only factory built twin supercharged Cobra on the planet, and Shelby said in the '60s when it was built it could do 0-60 in just over 3 seconds....that's incredible especially for the time. I wouldn't say it's worth 5.5 million but worth is only what someone is willing to pay.
 
I dunno man....it's one of only 2 that ever existed and the other one is long gone and destroyed so it's literally a piece of automotive history. Yeah, the name has a lot to do with it but it's also the only factory built twin supercharged Cobra on the planet, and Shelby said in the '60s when it was built it could do 0-60 in just over 3 seconds....that's incredible especially for the time. I wouldn't say it's worth 5.5 million but worth is only what someone is willing to pay.

I wasn't aware that it was only one of two.....cool. :nice: But you can certainly see the difference in ownership and nostalgia value between a one off, special producton, ultra rare car (to begin with) previously owned by Carrol Shelby and a run of the mill Fox Body car in your comparison, right. :D
 
I think this video is one of the best illustrations on why new is not always better than new. It doesn't deal with Stangs but the same principles apply.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=L30rnGCXziw

Seeing that the Mustang was intended to be primarily a PERFORMANCE car I don't think the S197's softer attributes (smooth riding, seating position, # of cup holders, etc.) should be factored in when determining which is better. If you feel the need to add all of these bells and whistles when deciding which car is better then I think I should point out that just about any old/new Porsche, Mercedes, BMW, Audi, Corvette, and Subaru, would be 1000x better than an S197 in both comfort and performance. So basically if I was looking for a comfort/performance car the S197 would be nowhere near my list.

And yes, I do believe the FOX is better. What people don't understand is that the s197 is PLAGUED with a HUGE ugly body (not to mention aerodynamically inferior) and 400 extra lbs :notnice: . Any idiot knows that when you design a PERFORMANCE car (not fords intenrion with the S197) weight is the biggest enemy which is why I don't believe the s197 has any sort of a "head start" against the Fox. Some might argue that the engine of the s197 is more powerful. My rebuttal is that:

1) You would obviously need a more powerful motor to lug around something significantly heavier

and:

2) You can't always add more power to an engine however it is not as easy to reduce weight of a car. Which is why I believe the lighter modded Fox will always have the upper hand :nice: .

In conclusion, the Fox's performance capabilities will always trump the s197.

I've seen if before and love that video, but lets be frank. We aren't comparing $300,000 Exotics here. :D And we already know that the S197 already does everything better (from a performance aspect) than the Fox.

So by your definition, “Performance” means power? What about the fact that the heavier S197 out handles and out brakes the Fox as well? Sure it’s bigger…longer and wider. But you know a nice bonus you get with that added size and weight? A little thing called stability.....both at speed and going around corners. The new chassis does a great job of centering the weight, unlike the earlier fox that puts everything out over the nose of the car. I consider the aerodynamics statement to be a moot point. Neither of these cars was built for running the Bonneville Salt Flats but if you really want to nit pick about it, running these cars full out will certainly prove that the S197 is the more “top speed” friendly of the two. And anyone who’s ever run a Fox to top end knows how they like to use both sides of the road when doing so. :D )

I’m not sure why anytime someone who’s pro-Fox always addresses the S197 as only being able to provide you with the “softer attributes”? To touch back on your point.....aside from the fact you’re sticking with an older car.....yes, you can always add power to the Fox in order to “outrun” the S197, but in order to equal the “total performance” of the S197, you’re going to need to address the suspension, chassis and braking system to match.

And this can get quite expensive, taking away the "low cost" factor that seems to be the basis for the majority of the arguements on this subject. :shrug:
 
I think this video is one of the best illustrations on why new is not always better than old. It doesn't deal with Stangs but the same principles apply.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=L30rnGCXziw

Seeing that the Mustang was intended to be primarily a PERFORMANCE car I don't think the S197's softer attributes (smooth riding, seating position, # of cup holders, etc.) should be factored in when determining which is better. If you feel the need to add all of these bells and whistles when deciding which car is better then I think I should point out that just about any old/new Porsche, Mercedes, BMW, Audi, Corvette, and Subaru, would be 1000x better than an S197 in both comfort and performance. So basically if I was looking for a comfort/performance car the S197 would be nowhere near my list.

And yes, I do believe the FOX is better. What people don't understand is that the s197 is PLAGUED with a HUGE ugly body (not to mention aerodynamically inferior) and 400 extra lbs :notnice: . Any idiot knows that when you design a PERFORMANCE car (not fords intenrion with the S197) weight is the biggest enemy which is why I don't believe the s197 has any sort of a "head start" against the Fox. Some might argue that the engine of the s197 is more powerful. My rebuttal is that:

1) You would obviously need a more powerful motor to lug around something significantly heavier

and:

2) You can't always add more power to an engine however it is not as easy to reduce weight of a car. Which is why I believe the lighter modded Fox will always have the upper hand :nice: .

In conclusion, the Fox's performance capabilities will always trump the s197.

Yep totaly agree you me and it looks like 98% of the post too Hmmm oh :nice: Welll.......
 
Seeing that the Mustang was intended to be primarily a PERFORMANCE car I don't think the S197's softer attributes (smooth riding, seating position, # of cup holders, etc.) should be factored in when determining which is better. If you feel the need to add all of these bells and whistles when deciding which car is better then I think I should point out that just about any old/new Porsche, Mercedes, BMW, Audi, Corvette, and Subaru, would be 1000x better than an S197 in both comfort and performance. So basically if I was looking for a comfort/performance car the S197 would be nowhere near my list.


Exactly. As much as I love Mustangs, If I was going to pay $25k plus for a new car, it wouldn't be the s197. There are so many better all-around family sedans available.

GearBanger101 said:
I've seen if before and love that video, but lets be frank. We aren't comparing $300,000 Exotics here. And we already know that the S197 already does everything better (from a performance aspect) than the Fox.

So by your definition, “Performance” means power? What about the fact that the heavier S197 out handles and out brakes the Fox as well? Sure it’s bigger…longer and wider. But you know a nice bonus you get with that added size and weight? A little thing called stability.....both at speed and going around corners. The new chassis does a great job of centering the weight, unlike the earlier fox that puts everything out over the nose of the car. I consider the aerodynamics statement to be a moot point. Neither of these cars was built for running the Bonneville Salt Flats but if you really want to nit pick about it, running these cars full out will certainly prove that the S197 is the more “top speed” friendly of the two. And anyone who’s ever run a Fox to top end knows how they like to use both sides of the road when doing so. )

I’m not sure why anytime someone who’s pro-Fox always addresses the S197 as only being able to provide you with the “softer attributes”? To touch back on your point.....aside from the fact you’re sticking with an older car.....yes, you can always add power to the Fox in order to “outrun” the S197, but in order to equal the “total performance” of the S197, you’re going to need to address the suspension, chassis and braking system to match.

And this can get quite expensive, taking away the "low cost" factor that seems to be the basis for the majority of the arguements on this subject.

The money it would take to make a fox outperform (and by "outperform" I mean in all categories, not just acceleration)an S197 would still be less than the initial cost of the s197. Low cost isn't really the argument - it's cost effectiveness. Could you then spend a little more money on the S197 to make it better than the fox again? - Probably, but then you'll have a car with similar performance that also has no warranty that you paid a lot more money for. The only benefit then would be resale value - but that's a double edged sword as well - If my Fox gets wrecked, I can salvage most of the parts and buy another rolling chassis for 1 or 2 grand - How much would it cost to replace the S197?

Basically - if you want a new, daily driven car that performs decently for a fairly cheap priced mid size sedan (and you only buy American), buy an S197. If you want to build a race car as cost effectively as possible, buy a Fox.
 
The only advantage of the extra weight is that it helps in absorbing bumps in the road better (if you can even call it an advantage :D ). I don't know how you figure that more weight is going to make ANY car handle better. As I stated earlier, performance cars are engineered to be as light as possible. The F-40 in the video must have weighed about 2,300 lbs. and i'd say it was pretty damn stable.

Also, my definition for performance in not only about the car's power and ability to handle, but also the car's ability to "evolve". Lets face it, the aftermarket for the Fox has to be one of the biggest of any other car in existence and you can pretty much buy everything you need to smoke an s197. In the hands of an average Joe, the s197 has pretty much reached the limits of its design in the sense that there is not much you can do the the engine (besides bolt-ons) by yourself. I know i'm stating the obvious but tearing apart a 4.6 and building it back up is MUCH more difficult than building a 5.0.

The limits of the s197's design also apply to the suspension as well in the sense that if you bought every single piece to mod the suspension in your s197 you are still modding something that is inherently designed not to handle well (Just like modding a school bus :D ). A good example of what I am trying to get at is the "Stability Control" systems on SUV's which can only help prevent rollovers to a certain extent before the laws of physics take over. In the s197's case, it's biggest design flaw which compromises it's true potential for both acceleration handling is it's weight.

BTW I also understand that it not going to be cheap to make a Fox outperform an s197 but at the same time neither is blowing 30K all at once for an s197. An even if you had the money, you wouldn't need anywhere near 30K to make a Fox outperform the s197

Also, you can even buy Fox's that were already modded for much less than the money invested in them.

Exactly!!!!!
 
We all do know this is a never ending cycle, right? This same discussion has been happening since the second generation Mustang came out, and everyone said the first was better. Who cares. A Mustang's a Mustang. Why can't we all just get along?
 
I think this video is one of the best illustrations on why new is not always better than old. It doesn't deal with Stangs but the same principles apply.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=L30rnGCXziw

Seeing that the Mustang was intended to be primarily a PERFORMANCE car I don't think the S197's softer attributes (smooth riding, seating position, # of cup holders, etc.) should be factored in when determining which is better. If you feel the need to add all of these bells and whistles when deciding which car is better then I think I should point out that just about any old/new Porsche, Mercedes, BMW, Audi, Corvette, and Subaru, would be 1000x better than an S197 in both comfort and performance. So basically if I was looking for a comfort/performance car the S197 would be nowhere near my list.

And yes, I do believe the FOX is better. What people don't understand is that the s197 is PLAGUED with a HUGE ugly body (not to mention aerodynamically inferior) and 400 extra lbs :notnice: . Any idiot knows that when you design a PERFORMANCE car (not fords intenrion with the S197) weight is the biggest enemy which is why I don't believe the s197 has any sort of a "head start" against the Fox. Some might argue that the engine of the s197 is more powerful. My rebuttal is that:

1) You would obviously need a more powerful motor to lug around something significantly heavier

and:

2) You can't always add more power to an engine however it is not as easy to reduce weight of a car. Which is why I believe the lighter modded Fox will always have the upper hand :nice: .

In conclusion, the Fox's performance capabilities will always trump the s197.


400lb doesn't justify like 75+ more HP the s197 has over a stock fox.. The stock for stock performance is better in a s197 stang.. sorry :shrug: And again, ive said it before, the ride on a new s197 isn't Lexus like, how some of you people make it out to sound like.. its still a pretty rough bumpy ride, no cadillac there! when it comes down to it.. its a mustang.. dont knock it! haha
 
dry noodles break up... hahaha damn I don't want to be at work at all... I like the 2005+ Mustangs, not something I'd turn into a weekend race car when you can get a 4 banger fox coupe and a built 408 stroker for a lot cheaper and would be a "little" faster :) People are starting to work on the SN95 cars since they are easier to find (in better shape) than the fox body.

My hatch has brake upgrades all around and it brakes pretty damn good. Needs some connecting frames to tighten up the body (it's amazing how much stronger the coupe is compared to the hatch).
 
My definition of a good car: I can get in it and drive as far as I want to without worrying about it breaking down.

My definition of a Mustang: A powerful, fun-to-drive car with a gutteral exhaust note and head-turning looks.

For me, the S197 meets the criteria of a good car, but is rather lacking in the Mustang department. As I stated in my first post from long ago, I've driven the new car and just wasn't impressed with the "feel" of the car. My wife and I were number 1 on the list at Bickford Ford to get a new GT500 at MSRP. After seeing the early pictures and driving the car in Hawaii, we cancelled our order. The performance just wasn't worth the lack of "Mustangness" in the new car and the having to get rid of one of our current cars to have someplace to park it. In retrospect, we should have bought the car and resold it, but we didn't foresee the feeding frenzy by all the "gotta have the latest and greatest" people bidding up the cars.

I've owned Mustangs since 1977 and have driven a lot of them over the years, as well as almost every other performance car made, both domestic and import. The S197 is a fine car, but to me, it's not much of a Mustang.

Disclaimer: This is my opinion, nothing more. I do not have facts, road tests, or celebrity endorsements to reinforce it. It is the result of 30 years of building and driving Mustangs and reinforced by my life experiences.

Giddiyup.