They have two 93 Lightnings and one 95 Lightning. It's a shame I don't have help this weekend. I would love to just pull the 95 Lightning 5.8L and stuff it in my Mustang.
Engine 95 Gt 5.0ho Build-up
- Thread starter psychorugby
- Start date
They have two 93 Lightnings and one 95 Lightning. It's a shame I don't have help this weekend. I would love to just pull the 95 Lightning 5.8L and stuff it in my Mustang.
JonezySN95
Member
Dam if I was out your way I would help just to see it go in. That would be the perfect setup for what you are looking for.
Negative... every F150/Explorer (all 43 of them) were either 6 cylinder motors or stripped down of blocks, heads, intakes, etc. Even the Mustangs that were there were stripped of every part I needed.
That's the way it was at my pick and pull. If they ever got an SN 302 car, I would take parts I didn't even need yet. One of those would be stripped to the shell in 2 weeks.
Kurt
Kurt
It's been my experience before as well. I just figured the law of probability would be on my side as there were over 50 vehicles there, and the three Lightnings were new acquisitions. I need to get to know someone over there so that they can call me when a full motor comes in.
Of course, the only reason I drove all the way to Orlando rather than check out the yards here in Tampa is because my company owns it. Time to check around more seriously.
Yeah, I always have an issue when people start recommending junk yard searches for parts, especially for modifications. Ex, Just go find a Cobra in the junkyard, and start pulling the brake parts, and you will have Cobra brakes. Or if you want to do a T-5 swap, just go to a junkyard and get the computer and pedal assembly. The reality for those of us who have spent a lot of time in junkyards is that finding a specific car for parts is almost impossible in a junkyard. Especially cars like Cobras and 5 speed Mustangs, because places like MPS always grab them up.
Kurt
Kurt
so much going on in this thread now so I will keep this very short... as short as I can be.
High HP N/A stroker builds.
-Never cost effective, could have always been faster with FI with the same amount spent.
- you need a certain level of craziness and a love for N/A to make this decision.
- it does not seem like you are a devout n/a guy... you would know if you were. The fact that you are looking at hellion says that you are not. you will be unhappy with your lower than expect HP results when the dust settles. no one ever makes more than they were expecting on an n/a build,
351 swaps:
You HAVE to include all the requirement for the swap in your build. I am sop far removed even I forgot a few. I am an N/A lover, but the financial guy in me slaps the n/a guy in the back of the head like the three stooges.
- MAC 351 long tubes, or big shorties with a Big most likely custom exhaust.
- Aftermarket cowl hood is most likely required. include a new hood AND paint in the cost of your build. I was dead set on a stroked 351 setup with a victor 5.0 or trick flow R box plennum with drop motor mounts and a 96 cobra stock hood...This is one of the only ways unless you have a kmember that drops and moves the motor down and back (which is possible)
- drop motormounts
-etc etc
turbo setups with gt40Ps
I have seen it done. You may or may not be asking for trouble with the spark plug angle and the various companies kits. trade out for some regular gt40s if you want to go this route and hog the exhaust ports out and maybe get bigger valves.
you can go VERY VERY fast with a turb and gt40s or a blower and gt40s. Its old school and it works. People who have been racing long enough have seen plenty of low 10 second cars pushing 500 rwhp on stock block gt40s and boost. look for chris 95svt's old setup if there are still links on here.
OEM part budget builds. i.e. gt40s and gt40Ps
-It is what it is. It can make 260 rwhp and it can make 315 rwhp. It is all in the combo and the tune. My car made 280/310 before my tweaks on the dyno. 295/321 after a few slight adjustments of Fuel Pressure and timing on the dyno. someone who never puts their car on a dyno with A/f never knows this is going on.
you can also go all out and have your gt40Ps fully ported with good valves. This is kind crazy, but fun. You have to really be passionate about this to do so. I say this because you have have better flowing aluminum heads that are 50 pounds lighter (we don't need any more weight on the front as it is) for around the same cost outlay.
to really use the Ps properly, Tune and CAM SELECTION IS KEY. stock gt40Ps with a stock cam can very well make 270. gt40ps with an aftermarket cam and a crappy tune, can very well make 270 rwhp and have worse average power. With stock heads and an e cam, I used to slap around my friend's combo which was an e303,gt40s,trickflow intake and ALL of the supporting mods and a lighter weight car. why? Because his tune was awful and the car made 261 rwhp with 11.5-12:1 A/f.
If you are going to go economical heads, just realize that there is less room for a sloppy combo and mistakes. Get the supporting mods that you have to have(headers, injectors, MAF Headers, exhaust, AFPR, intake manifold) and update the other things later as you can afford.
My combo was a very planned out setup and a true budget setup. I cleaned up my heads with a dremel on my kitchen stove top following Mouse's DIY. I carefully selected my cam the same way a "custom grinder" would. I got a cam that well matched the flow characteristics of the gt40P with a stage 1 port. an anderson B-25,b31 cam will work well as well due to the ramp rates and the split duration. the LSA and other characteristics will work well with the stock computer (112 or 114). It idles better than an E303 while it is technically "bigger" than an e303. These cam will also work amazingly well with a blower down the road and trick flow heads if you so choose. I have seen trick flow head combos with these cams slap around 95% of the AFR combos that are in this section. (more Hp/TQ and Area under the curve than all but maybe 1 or 2 Ed Curtis FTI AFR 165 combos)
I'm rambling....
use the gt40Ps what they are good for. A great bolton piece in stock or mildly modified form that can make 285-305 rwhp. (if you do nothing else , at least grind out the EGR bump while you are swapping springs. Match them with a decent split duration cam and you will make plenty of power to make your car a new animal.
I had about 350 into my heads including home porting and proper springs/retainers.
I had 175 into my cam. I bought it NIB off a forum. You may have to spend 275 to get it new. (will be the best money you spend period)
a properly executed budget combo will walk all over an expensive HCI that is lacking a few key things, or maybe only a tune. Been there, done that.
High HP N/A stroker builds.
-Never cost effective, could have always been faster with FI with the same amount spent.
- you need a certain level of craziness and a love for N/A to make this decision.
- it does not seem like you are a devout n/a guy... you would know if you were. The fact that you are looking at hellion says that you are not. you will be unhappy with your lower than expect HP results when the dust settles. no one ever makes more than they were expecting on an n/a build,
351 swaps:
You HAVE to include all the requirement for the swap in your build. I am sop far removed even I forgot a few. I am an N/A lover, but the financial guy in me slaps the n/a guy in the back of the head like the three stooges.
- MAC 351 long tubes, or big shorties with a Big most likely custom exhaust.
- Aftermarket cowl hood is most likely required. include a new hood AND paint in the cost of your build. I was dead set on a stroked 351 setup with a victor 5.0 or trick flow R box plennum with drop motor mounts and a 96 cobra stock hood...This is one of the only ways unless you have a kmember that drops and moves the motor down and back (which is possible)
- drop motormounts
-etc etc
turbo setups with gt40Ps
I have seen it done. You may or may not be asking for trouble with the spark plug angle and the various companies kits. trade out for some regular gt40s if you want to go this route and hog the exhaust ports out and maybe get bigger valves.
you can go VERY VERY fast with a turb and gt40s or a blower and gt40s. Its old school and it works. People who have been racing long enough have seen plenty of low 10 second cars pushing 500 rwhp on stock block gt40s and boost. look for chris 95svt's old setup if there are still links on here.
OEM part budget builds. i.e. gt40s and gt40Ps
-It is what it is. It can make 260 rwhp and it can make 315 rwhp. It is all in the combo and the tune. My car made 280/310 before my tweaks on the dyno. 295/321 after a few slight adjustments of Fuel Pressure and timing on the dyno. someone who never puts their car on a dyno with A/f never knows this is going on.
you can also go all out and have your gt40Ps fully ported with good valves. This is kind crazy, but fun. You have to really be passionate about this to do so. I say this because you have have better flowing aluminum heads that are 50 pounds lighter (we don't need any more weight on the front as it is) for around the same cost outlay.
to really use the Ps properly, Tune and CAM SELECTION IS KEY. stock gt40Ps with a stock cam can very well make 270. gt40ps with an aftermarket cam and a crappy tune, can very well make 270 rwhp and have worse average power. With stock heads and an e cam, I used to slap around my friend's combo which was an e303,gt40s,trickflow intake and ALL of the supporting mods and a lighter weight car. why? Because his tune was awful and the car made 261 rwhp with 11.5-12:1 A/f.
If you are going to go economical heads, just realize that there is less room for a sloppy combo and mistakes. Get the supporting mods that you have to have(headers, injectors, MAF Headers, exhaust, AFPR, intake manifold) and update the other things later as you can afford.
My combo was a very planned out setup and a true budget setup. I cleaned up my heads with a dremel on my kitchen stove top following Mouse's DIY. I carefully selected my cam the same way a "custom grinder" would. I got a cam that well matched the flow characteristics of the gt40P with a stage 1 port. an anderson B-25,b31 cam will work well as well due to the ramp rates and the split duration. the LSA and other characteristics will work well with the stock computer (112 or 114). It idles better than an E303 while it is technically "bigger" than an e303. These cam will also work amazingly well with a blower down the road and trick flow heads if you so choose. I have seen trick flow head combos with these cams slap around 95% of the AFR combos that are in this section. (more Hp/TQ and Area under the curve than all but maybe 1 or 2 Ed Curtis FTI AFR 165 combos)
I'm rambling....
use the gt40Ps what they are good for. A great bolton piece in stock or mildly modified form that can make 285-305 rwhp. (if you do nothing else , at least grind out the EGR bump while you are swapping springs. Match them with a decent split duration cam and you will make plenty of power to make your car a new animal.
I had about 350 into my heads including home porting and proper springs/retainers.
I had 175 into my cam. I bought it NIB off a forum. You may have to spend 275 to get it new. (will be the best money you spend period)
a properly executed budget combo will walk all over an expensive HCI that is lacking a few key things, or maybe only a tune. Been there, done that.
JonezySN95
Member
. Lol jk. That was very good info though.Whoops! Sorry! I guess I figured out where to go with all the other parts of the car a lot faster than I thought I would... that leaves the one system I was up in the air about.
I'm not a devout N/A guy, but it seems wrong to me to throw turbos on a Mustang for some reason. I am okay with supercharging. Where I become a devout N/A guy is the initial cost of FI. I'm a frugal kind of guy and it's REALLY tough to convince my wife it's worth the cost.
The only reason I even started looking at this route is because of recommendations here. It's helps that I have found a 94 Lightning motor (possible spun bearing) for $300 that I can rebuild over time as I get the rest of the car put together. I don't think it has the intakes, but comes with GT-40 heads and every other part. I'll probably just do a stock-ish rebuild on this motor for now, then stroke it later.
This will still be a budget build for now, but if I can keep finding deals like this $400 motor, then I might be able to make some more out of my budget.
I'll have to pick your brain on tunes when I get that far. For now, I just need to get some spare cash to order suspension parts with!
Go to TeamZ suspension website for deals. Strange 10-Way adjustable struts $119, Stange 10-Way adjustable shocks for $69. If you order a bunch at a time send Dave Z. an email and he'll help with the shipping. There upper / lower rear control arms have bushing options, solid aluminum or poly, $209 for lowers, $199 for uppers. These are good prices plus like I mentioned if you send Dave Z. an email and you're buying a bunch of pieces he can help with better pricing plus freight charges. This stuff is good to have the wife buy Holiday gifts. My wife bought me half the parts I had on my car (Holiday, Birthdays, etc.).
I'm banking on car parts for Christmas. She did look at me like I had 5 heads though when I said all I wanted was car parts and tools...
"Don't you have enough tools?"
"Well, I could always think of tools I need... and we both drive European cars, so I need all those specialty tools too!"
First off, the initial cost of an aftermarket n/A build is more than a power adder. If you sit down and add up parts/hp.
I did not realize that you had the 351 already. You might work on just getting the suspension right the way you like it.
I would sell off those Ps and the gt40s on ebay and get some good parts for your 351. Shop around for some trick flow heads and grab a systemax II with a healthy cam before the motor ever goes in and just get your suspension right first as you build.
The only Caveat is that a 351 swap even with your 400 dollar find is going to be a lot of money for very little HP and decent torque (good for a cruiser convertible pig). You need to add up the total cost of the swap and compare that to what it would cost just to slap an s-trim and gt40Ps and call it a day.
AFR 185s or TFS heads/ XE280/ systemax, shoud put you around 400/400 (give or take 15 hp) with all the neccessary boltons (351 headers/ full exhaust, Tb, injectors, pullies, MAF, fuel pump, FPR, tuning) A NEW HOOD! IT WILL NOT FIT UNDER A STOCK HOOD WITHOUT SERIOUS MODIFICATION AND PERFORMANCE SACRIFICING INTAKE. I'm sorry, I dont know if you saw this earlier.
S trim at 12 PSI / gt40 or performer will get you up around 400 in that neighborhood as well but wont have the same torque curve. (you will also need headers/full exhaust, MAF, Injectors fuel pump and tune.
These two cars will have extremely different street manners. One will be a booming cammed 351 and the other will be a sedate whining blower car with stockish manners until you take it into boost. There is nothing budget about a 351 swap especially one that needs a rebuild.
Tell us what your goals are and how much you can really spend over the next 2 years on the HP side, we will tell you what it will take to get there and give you several combos that will work. 2000, 3500, 5000, or 8000?
I did not realize that you had the 351 already. You might work on just getting the suspension right the way you like it.
I would sell off those Ps and the gt40s on ebay and get some good parts for your 351. Shop around for some trick flow heads and grab a systemax II with a healthy cam before the motor ever goes in and just get your suspension right first as you build.
The only Caveat is that a 351 swap even with your 400 dollar find is going to be a lot of money for very little HP and decent torque (good for a cruiser convertible pig). You need to add up the total cost of the swap and compare that to what it would cost just to slap an s-trim and gt40Ps and call it a day.
AFR 185s or TFS heads/ XE280/ systemax, shoud put you around 400/400 (give or take 15 hp) with all the neccessary boltons (351 headers/ full exhaust, Tb, injectors, pullies, MAF, fuel pump, FPR, tuning) A NEW HOOD! IT WILL NOT FIT UNDER A STOCK HOOD WITHOUT SERIOUS MODIFICATION AND PERFORMANCE SACRIFICING INTAKE. I'm sorry, I dont know if you saw this earlier.
S trim at 12 PSI / gt40 or performer will get you up around 400 in that neighborhood as well but wont have the same torque curve. (you will also need headers/full exhaust, MAF, Injectors fuel pump and tune.
These two cars will have extremely different street manners. One will be a booming cammed 351 and the other will be a sedate whining blower car with stockish manners until you take it into boost. There is nothing budget about a 351 swap especially one that needs a rebuild.
Tell us what your goals are and how much you can really spend over the next 2 years on the HP side, we will tell you what it will take to get there and give you several combos that will work. 2000, 3500, 5000, or 8000?
I have not purchased the 351 or any other parts yet, so no money has been spent (or wasted). The goals for this car are to be a cruiser that I can take to shows... and be somewhat unique. I have no intention of racing it, so ridiculous amounts of horsepower are unnecessary. I would like some low end torque for some stop light to stop light runs though. I'm also in love with the sound of a cammed motor. Both of these points are what made the 351 swap appeal to me. Of course the more I read your advice, the more I'm leaning away from the 351. I think there is a part of me that would just love to build a brand new motor for this car... then take the 302 and put it in my dad's '65...
Oh... I did see it will need a new hood (knew this going into it). I was going to get a 2000 R hood anyway and have a friend that does paint and body, so the expense for paint wouldn't be that bad.
All said and done, I would like to spend around $5,000; less is better of course. I am a deal shopper and have the ability to wait since the motor will be the last thing to be worked on.
Oh... I did see it will need a new hood (knew this going into it). I was going to get a 2000 R hood anyway and have a friend that does paint and body, so the expense for paint wouldn't be that bad.
All said and done, I would like to spend around $5,000; less is better of course. I am a deal shopper and have the ability to wait since the motor will be the last thing to be worked on.
BlackVert
15 Year Member
while sticking with a 302 saves the specific 302-351 swap costs, if you include the cost of stroking the 302 to 347 (which is obviously not necessary with a 351), then (all other things being equal) you will may very vell find that the 351 swap actually costs less. it would be interesting to crunch the numbers on that.
as to budget mindedness, it depends on how one goes about it. doing what you are talking about (either with stroking a 302 or a stock 351 shortblock) new heads and cam and intake all at the same time ... sure, that is not going to be cheap either way.
but that is only one way to approach a build. another approach is take a phased approach: the first phase being to get the 351 in there AS IS (as much as possible) and then start saving for and planning the next phase of the build, that being the "big power" phase.
the positives of a phased approach (in my opinion) are:
(1) the initial cost is lower,
(2) the total cost is spread out over a longer period of time,
(3) the total project is broken into smaller, less expensive, shorter term sub-projects, with tangible progess that helps keep the motivation up (HUGE!)
(4) you might just find out you are happier that you thought you would be with the results of phase 1 (so phase 2 might become just a HCI upgrade as opposed to stroking it too), and
(5) you can actually enjoy the car after completing the first phase while saving up for and planning the next phase.
having lived through the "all at once" process, and seeing how long the car was out of comission and how much money i spent on it, i have no doubt at all that, had i taken a phased approach like i am talking about, i would have been happier every step of the way, and would have ended up with a different combination that cost me much less in the long run.
I think perhaps my use of budget may be taken out of context. I don't want to cheap out; I am not opposed to spending the cash if necessary, but at the same time, I don't want to spend $3k on aluminum heads when I am not trying to drag race the car.
The phased approach is probably what I will do. I can rebuild the motor myself as much as possible and learn about the motor in the process, all while rebuilding other systems on the vert. I don't want her out of commission for years while I wait to be able to spend huge chunks of cash at once. I think if I can do a "stock" rebuild (if it even needs anything major), then I will be happy with the power increase initially. That being said, I will want to plan out the rebuild a little so that it supports stroking or adding a blower later on, but that is a long ways off.
I really just want a unique cruiser with a slight power increase right now.
I never once brought up stroking a 302.
and I was refering to the fact that he mentioned a 351 that needed rebuilding vs. a running hydro roller 351 which would be pretty sweet, especially with milled gt40Ps! Talk about torque!
Very good advice. Too many people get burned out on the wait and end up selling the car before they ever enjoyed it. MOST cars that go down for years and are finally finished, get sold or parked soon after they are finished because life and priorities have changed.
I dont know how many cars I have seen get sold with a "low compression built motor" with NO POWER ADDER. The guys just never get there or move on.
A great Phased approach is.
1. bolton mods that support the ultimate goal and wont have to be changed.
2. Aluminum heads/intake and blower cam that makes good n/a power i.e. 0 overlap.
3. Supercharger
4. when/if the shortblock ever blows build motor big.
I have seen so many local guys do this in the exact opposite order. They always wind up selling underpowered "built motors" when their dreams die.
I would say only do the 351 deal if you don't have to rebuild the motor. You will come out cheaper and happier with a nice HCI package on your stock 302
than a slow-than-expected gt40 based 351 that you just dumped a bunch of money into.
Well let me ask this dumb question - If I buy this 351 (they claim a minor knock, but still runs, so it might not need a full rebuild), are there parts that I can get for the 302 that will still work on the 351? This goes to number 1 on your list - what mods can I do now that will support the ultimate goal? Are there heads I could buy; I could sell the GT40 heads that are currently on the 351?
$400 for a full 351 sounds like a steal to me, especially when I consider that I will probably change all the internals anyway. I honestly will be fine riding around on the stock or slightly modded 302 while I get the rest of the car ready.
If you can purchase a 351 for under $400 then get it, even if it had rod knock. You can send it to a machine shop, have the basics done for another few hundred bucks. Have the machine shop install all the internals and provide them with heads, cam, etc. to install as well. When done you'll have basically have a long block ready for installation. Throw a nice 351 intake, big throttle body and 1-3/4" Long Tube headers and you'll have a stout N/A ride. I would have went this route if I got a 351 block for next to nothing. I had my 347 custom built by Probe Industries where I picked all the parts and they delivered it to my house. Had some friends over and we dropped the motor in.
Removing the stock 302.
Pulled with the tranny still attached.
Removed the crate cover to expose the new 347.
It's easier to install the flywheel, clutch, bellhousing, clutch, intake, water pump, etc. while the motor is out.
Bolted up the Tranny.
Bare engine compartment waiting for the new motor.
New motor in it's home.
Finished product.
Removing the stock 302.
Pulled with the tranny still attached.
Removed the crate cover to expose the new 347.
It's easier to install the flywheel, clutch, bellhousing, clutch, intake, water pump, etc. while the motor is out.
Bolted up the Tranny.
Bare engine compartment waiting for the new motor.
New motor in it's home.
Finished product.
Attachments
your step 1 with a 351 is very different if you are going 351 route.
You can grab a set of used pulleys.
You should go ahead and take care of the rear end and gears.
Your catback of choice.
this is a much harder project to do Phases because 351 parts do not mix with a lot of 302 parts.
You pretty much are going to be slow as hell, and then one day fast, as opposed to gradually getting faster in phases.
what is the time frame for building the 351? If 6 months, only buy the parts for the 351. If 2 years...
really budget this out before you do anything. The end result might overcome what you and your wife are really willing to spend.
doing a SC HCI car is more the "grows with you" type of project that you can have your fun along the way and at any time you can throw in the towell and you are left with a 1. bolton car 2. HCI car
This is exactly what I did, I got tired after the HCI step and driving that for a while and decided i didnt like mustangs any more. But I had tons of fun for 5 years in the yellow car as it progressed from the 14s to the mid 12s
