Build Thread 1978 Mercury Cyclone. The pig is in the pen.

[hoopty5.0]

Well....minus the turbo itself, and a 60 mm BOV flange and v band clamp,....I have everything to convert the thing back over to forced induction. The water meth kit arrived ( thanks @hoopty5.0 ). It was just as complete as it was when I sent it to him. So a practical example of what comes around, goes around. The 7 pound waste gate is here with flanges, the t4 turbo flange came, but no turbo till next week. Hopefully Monday . It hobbles me, I really can't build either the hot or cold side with out the damn turbo.

I'll be able to plumb the water meth system back in again to a certain extent. The holes are there for everything I just need to put stuff back in place.

I'm thinking that this big assed turbo is gonna be a little lazy on the bottom end, and maybe that'll be a good thing..the engine has decent off idle grunt up to about 3k rpm, but runs right the hell out of steam at around 5k rpm,....now maybe it'll be a little different when it starts seeing 10 pounds of boost.

Cause boost can be so persuasive when it comes to making things go that don't wanna go.

Collin labeled my box " Six Gun Matkosky" when he shipped the water meth kit back ( probably retaliatory to me calling him Collin Clyde Crashcup) ...but despite him thinking he was returning the favor somehow, I've decided to go to the courthouse and have my first name officially changed to Six Gun.

Has a kinda Yosemite Sam kinda vibe I'm thinkin,.....after all, Sam had orange hair,...the monster is orange........sam was an ornery sidewinder from west of the pecos,....the monster was from west of the pecos....sam had a pair of six guns,......I only have one.

But I gotta a Chinee turbo....i liken that to taking a six gun,...and making it into something like this:

This has “ six” guns.............I'd shoot SAMs ass up.

HAAAH! Your turbo (at least the one on the previous page) has 6 veins vanes on the impeller.

 

[CarMichael Angelo]

I only need one more 6 in the mix to make it the mark of the devil....
6 cylinders,.....6 impeller vanes,....6 tb’s?

 

[droopie85gt]

They say all great running tv series at some point 'Jump the Shark.' Refers to the glorious Happy Days episode where the Fonz, jumps the shark. I think this build is there.

And damn it it's glorious! @CarMichael Angelo needs to drive the newly reborn turbo straight six with cutoffs and a leather jacket!

 

[RaggedGT]

Since the Monster is going back turbo-are you going back to MadMike?
lol

 

[Davedacarpainter]

I only need one more 6 in the mix to make it the mark of the devil....
6 cylinders,.....6 impeller vanes,....6 tb’s?

The Mark of the Mike......

 

[General karthief]

He won't change the monster to beast, right?
Right?
RIGHT?
Hello?

 

[CarMichael Angelo]

It has rained somewhere in this city almost every afternoon through the early evening. It is forecasted to do that again today.

I was hoping to make the stupid car cruise in tonight after work, but that location is about 35 miles to the south of me. The weather in my part of the city is always different than it is in that area. That area is where I used to live...it's the corridor that Tornadoes take every single time they touch down, the sun can be shining here, and pouring there, or it can be pouring here and never a drop has fallen there....It's bizarro land.

I was planning on taking the thing out one more time in non-wheezer mode before I turn my running combination into a non-running version for the 3rd time since its been orange.
It's stuff like not being able to drive it when you want to because of weather/time/opportunity that sours my taste for this hobby.
I mean what's the point of having all that orange shininess just sitting down there doing nothing...

If It's not doing nothing....it costs money to sit down there...

Cause when that car sits down there I scheme. When I scheme, I change things. When I change things, I spend money...When I spend money, the car sits. (I call this the Tanner syndrome)

If it wasn't down there, there'd be no scheming.

The ONLY thing that saves it from the auction block is the interior...every time I sit in it I think "Damn this is a cool space".
The amount of man hours it took to build it is next....While I'm siting in that cabin, I also consider what is probably 1000 hours of my life ( and Daves, and Steves, ) sitting there. How can you sell 1000 hours? ....of your life?

I built this car, ( and every one before) as a means to enjoy the social aspect of the hobby..I like to show it off. I like to see other stuff where ingenuity weighed out over money. I like to talk. ( imagine that) With the work schedule standing in the way, and the constant foul afternoon weather adding to that though, the whole purpose of this obsession comes into question for me.....why would I spend all this time and money to have something sitting that I can't enjoy?

Some guys collect and amass a whole bunch of sht so they can show their collection off too, but I'm the polar opposite of those guys..I would never own something built to roll and be content to park it.

So,..again,.....another week goes by because of things I can't control. On Monday, I'll disable the car.

And it'll sit for a couple more weekends.....and when I get it done,.....it'll rain.

I hate freakin rain.

Can you tell?

 

[a91what]

so drive it anyway.... I dont let no stinkin rain stop me from drivin my chit.

The day that happens i have achieved a point in my project that makes me want to sell it.

 

[95BlueStallion]

I agree. Driving in the rain isnt ideal, but its not the end of the world.

 

[Davedacarpainter]

What Steve said Mike^^^

I’m serious about Booger being a dd whenever it might get done.

If hail is in the forecast, it’ll stay home.

 

[CarMichael Angelo]

I thought I was making a daily driveable car too....
Until I blocked off the fresh air plenum, and installed that Vintage air unit that just recirc’s the inside air........
Until I decided to hang a conical style K&N filter in the direct path of oncoming rain, and tire spray....
Until I decided to remove some of the factory weather stripping, and inner wheel tubs, and now water is free to contaminate open electrical connections....
Until I decided trying to showroom detail a car that has been driving in rain is just too much of a pain in my ass,....so I don’t drive it in the rain unless I have to.

Well see what you do as well Dave,.......
Mr. “I’m even detailing my bumper shock mounts”....After the whole booger is slicker than snot.

 

[xecute]

It just seems that the engine runs restricted,...and like the new title says, I now have over 12" of throttle plate opening that has to breathe through a 3" hole.... That has an 18" long tube attached ,.....that has 3 90 degree bends,....that is capped by a conical filter.
I lay in bed wondering...........how can all those wide open throttle holes breathe independently when forced to get it all out of one 3" opening.
Now I know that all engines typically breathe through a 3" hole or less, and work just fine,....but when it comes to optimizing an ITB setup,..........are you negating that benefit by forcing them to breathe through a common opening?

CMA, you are so right. I was gonna suggest you add another 3" hole to the front of your 6 ITB letter box.

Just like Georges 250 X flow with twin Ford F150 5.0 truck throttle bodies. On a turbo charged 250, like Georges old Crossflow, his F150 5.0 EFI twin bore throttle body got him into the 10's.


Now that its gonna be turbo'd, that is what I'd do.

If its 12 square inches at the throttle does, then it has to be 12 square inches at the inlet to the air box, so you need two 70 mm throttle bodies as a minimum to make a 12 sq in target. The old 5 liter Walkinshaw V8 ran two 80 mm throttle bodies to make 480 to 500 hp before turbo. After adding a trubo, the made 1350 hp with the same throttle bodies,

Do it Georges way, but instead of the 5.0/5.8 trucks 2-bbl throttles, use two 2.75 or 3" throttles with the butterfly taken out, and make another see thru' glass adpator out of aquarium glass to tie the other throttle into the whole Air Box you have.

You've got one 3 inch hole on the air box....add another, but Keep the Glass idea.

 

[a91what]

Sorry im not following.... why do we need to change things on the box and add TB???

 

[xecute]

Get your kicks on Route 666!

Its a Route Section on State Highway 1 in New Zealand.

To get the throttle area clear the way through, your best with curved section 3" tube which you can argon back purge and stitch together. Standard X flow into Nissan Skline/ Stagea process.

And don't be affraid to twin turbo it!

The only thing is to limit advance, and don't exceed the Excess Fuel factor. Kind of like your twin Nitrus Oxide experience with your 460 Fox, you have to have the right balance of fuel to air, or you get a huge lean out which kills conrods and brakes camshafts wheh the conrod goes.

These are forged conrods in an 84 4.1 liter Ford Fairlane my mate Peter Neville used with the AIT turbo system. His dad Garth used it as a medical delivery steatch limo from Alexandra to Dunedin, 250 miles a day round trip. When my mama was dying of cancer, Garth drove her to and from Dunedin Publick Hospital in the Pink Turbocharged Fairlane Streatch Limo. It was exceptionally cool to ride in a 4000pound, 275 hp turbo 3 speed auto. Even with a decompression plate, and 7.5:1 compression, it suffered a fuel delivery lean out. This engine had an axuilary fuel delivery system from the UAS, same as the Callaway Corvette, and if you suffer any fuel lean out, then the engine goes bang under boost.


Becasue of this...

Avoid that.

The forged rods are okay to 350 hp normally aspritated, and since the turbo takes away criticial loads due to engine rpm, then you'll most likely survive with your engine making over 450 hp. Just don't let it detonate.

I'd use a spacer plate and two head gaskets to drop your compression down to 8.5:1, and use the Snow Anti Detonation kit to do the rest.


Good fotune with your great choices, CMA.

 

[xecute]

The "Seven Bridges Road" is Woodley Road in Montgomery, Alabama.

I think this more appropriate as the Glia Monter lookes to be ending up with maybee Seven throttle bodies....



Oh yeah, here's the decompression plate with two Felpro gaskets. The plate is 62.5 thou, the two gaskets, about 48 thou each, so since 1983 to 1992 EFi 250 cube engines had either 8.8:1 or 8.7:1 compression engine, the CR goes back to about 7.5:1 or so. Stock early alloy heads were 53 cc like your one, they carry 9.35:1 compression ratio stock, so with an extra gasket and spacer, you should be able to get the comprssion ratio down a little without too much extra effort and dollars.

More shots of Georges 250 X flow intake

And you could fit two turbos, with a low mount rear turbo, and a high mount front....


Lincs 200 style for the back,

Barra 240 style in the front

 

[xecute]

Sorry im not following.... why do we need to change things on the box and add TB???

CMA Mike thinks its running restricted above 5000 rpm, and its not making the power unaspirated by the Butt-o-meter. The VE logs should show this. He's gained a huge amount from ilde to 3000 rpm, but past 5000 rpm, its missing the expected gains. I think thats due to the tiny 7 sq in flow area forward of the 12 sq in of ITB's. Simple, self evident truth.

I'm certain it is restricted with only 7 sq inches of opening at the front on the air box, so ASAP, CMA should add an extra 2-3/4 to 3" hole to feed all the 6 ITB's the same amount. How he does that, well, I've given him some ideas.


When he turbos it, the air flow has to feed all the ITB's equally , or else things will get worse for fuel supply. Air restricted or fuel restricted, both are exceptionally bad for a 4.1 liter turbo six. Never run them out of air or fuel.

cf my first example

Legoutabed

As for the rest, well, twin turbo it.

There is space to high mount the front turbo, and low mount the rear turbo, and still have it all fit.

Heck there's even space for four wheel drive if it snows in AL.

Could save CMA's Traction Controll Problems from Sustained Loss of Traction....

 

[CarMichael Angelo]

Sorry Dean, but this time I'm gonna have to question your advice.

Why on earth would I put two tb's front of 6 tb's, when the air box is fed by one common 2.5" outlet coming off of the turbo?

If this was still a naturally aspirated combination, I'd be apt to agree that I need to allow the ITBs unrestricted access to as much air as the engine can gulp down,...The obvious choke point at 5 k rpm is probably directly related to that.

But now things are different. ( or the same as before depending on when you wanna talk about)

The old combo breathed through a single 70mm hole, and revved past 6k rpm before I could stop it. All six cylinders showed similar color on the plugs ( excepting the cylinders that were leaking from ring seal) there were no obvious fuel distribution issues ( how could there be,...there was an injector in every port?) the engine made great power then....how come it wasn't choked then?

I have to admit,..I'm almost at the point of removing the ITBs and reinstalling the known working system just for the sake of eliminating the grey areas here.....almost.

The hot side of the new system is gonna be plumbed tomorrow. ( provided the turbo shows up) The plan for the cold side is a direct path off of the turbo with one 90 turning into the air box the water meth system is reinstalled again, only needing another 12v solenoid that will serve as my fail safe to stop water siphoning into the engine in N/A high vacuum situations.

It absolutely makes zero sense that I would put a throttle body in front of the ITBs,....it also makes no sense that I split the outlet coming from a single turbo in two so that I can move more air into the box....there is only one outlet.

 

[xecute]

You just need an equal flow area to all the ITB'S. An extra 3" hole, and an extra turbo oughta do it. Don't cheep out. Two 4.4 BMW turbos, maybee?

George Chaliks two holed approach gets my vote, 5 year old, stock 250 with a 291 degree cam, 530 thou lift, twin 80 mm throttle bodies, and 124 mph, 10.4 second 1/4 miles.

Hi Gents...Long time between drinks!!

Update on this old project....now owned by my mate.

The old rattler has peeled off a 10.4@ 124 . The MPH is low because he had to back off due to lean mixtures - The Wolf internal map only goes to 21PSI and we tried 25!!

Included is a video I shot...

The way things are going, 9,s are not out of the question...

Apart from the new paint job and interior - the motor is the same. Has not even had the rocker cover removed!!

Best taxi motor in the world!!

video from the other night.



View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgWROF-NuEM&feature=youtu.be

you don't even need a throttle body in them, but you sure as heck need some linear flow area to those ITB's if it felt restricted with one 3" elbow into it. When you slam the throttle on and off, the incomming air acts as a giant cupboard door if the intake runner doesn't have an equal flow area. ITB's are not the same as you old faired in single 90 mm throttle body. The area above the throttle bodies has to be faired in with equal volume upstream as below. One 76. 2 mm, 3" hole is way too small. Two open 3" holes would be better.

George copied the system the renown Aussie Cage Horsepower Fighter Eddy Tassone and Active Automotive's set up with Anthony Rodriguez doing the turbo tune.

In Australia, it hit 1238 and then 1376 hp in the early Noughties with a in a 6.3 liter 308 stroked to 383 twin turbo 1981 Holden Commodore.... a couple of big assed holes into an 8 trumpeted intake. That's the way to flow air, my friend.


View: https://youtu.be/j_4LyBB58VM


And even after a monumental IRS control arm failure induced roll over in 2013,


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_eo5kQoPKo


his twin turbo GTO still plants 8.61s at 165.7 mph as a street car


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHCsnbX3ecs

I'll let own own good concience be your guide.

 

[CarMichael Angelo]

You just need an equal flow area to all the ITB'S. An extra 3" hole, and an extra turbo oughta do it. Don't cheep out. Two 4.4 BMW turbos, maybee?

George Chaliks two holed approach gets my vote, 5 year old, stock 250 with a 291 degree cam, 530 thou lift, twin 80 mm throttle bodies, and 124 mph, 10.4 second 1/4 miles.



you don't even need a throttle body in them, but you sure as heck need some linear flow area to those ITB's if it felt restricted with one 3" elbow into it. When you slam the throttle on and off, the incomming air acts as a giant cupboard door if the intake runner doesn't have an equal flow area. ITB's are not the same as you old faired in single 90 mm throttle body. The area above the throttle bodies has to be faired in with equal volume upstream as below. One 76. 2 mm, 3" hole is way too small. Two open 3" holes would be better.

George copied the system the renown Aussie Cage Horsepower Fighter Eddy Tassone and Active Automotive's set up with Anthony Rodriguez doing the turbo tune.

In Australia, it hit 1238 and then 1376 hp in the early Noughties with a in a 6.3 liter 308 stroked to 383 twin turbo 1981 Holden Commodore.... a couple of big assed holes into an 8 trumpeted intake. That's the way to flow air, my friend.


View: https://youtu.be/j_4LyBB58VM


And even after a monumental IRS control arm failure induced roll over in 2013,


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_eo5kQoPKo


his twin turbo GTO still plants 8.61s at 165.7 mph as a street car


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHCsnbX3ecs

I'll let own own good concience be your guide.

You're an "edit bandit" Dean. The stuff you write at first read, changes afterwards ( you add pictures)

Again your examples are skewed...you're showing me pics of apples and tangerines. You're showing me pictures of 5-7 plus liter race prepped engines with monster turbos, and heads capable of flowing 300+ Intake CFM making 1300 hp needing two tb's.
Look at my sign pic Dean.....that is 363 c.i.,.... one 95mm turbo feeding eight methanol swilling ports that needed two 100+ lbhr injectors per port, all breathing through one 100 mm tb. That made over a thousand hp at the tire...

I have an engine now that by all examples you've ever furnished, has never been capable of more than a 3rd of that in na trim.
The 10 second falcon that has the aftermarket head measures 273 c.i. and is breathing through one tiny little 450 CFM carb and is still making 423 WHP at 16p.s.i.

I guess I really need to keep the engine in its present form, and take it to that dyno today so I can see how bad the air box is choking the engine,...ill call the guy today.
.

 

[HotFox]

I'm also a bit confused @xecute
I thought ITB manifolds are the best design manifold for NA. It should not matter turbo or not should it? Now it seems your back to planum design specifically for this turbo application. What gives Dean?