Sure...an IRS that was put together with a mish mash of parts to make it compact enough to fit into a chassis that was made to run a solid axle. I'll take the modern 3-link design, complete with panhard bar of the S197 over the compromise of space over function that was mounted in the '03-'04 Cobra. Couple that with the fact that the S197 has the longest wheel base and the most rigid platform ever to wear the Mustang moniker and was designed with a "true" Macpherson strut front suspension design, with lighter front end components and revised suspension geometry in comparison to the old modified Macpherson strut set up they ran for 25-years before that, it's no wonder the S197 was the better handling car. Lets not also forget, although the S197's were criticized for their portly weight, the '03-'04 Cobra's were actually slightly heavier in comparison....carrying most of that weight up front.
As for the claim of the 4.6L being a "detuned race car". It's kinda funny....I always thought of it as a glorified "Truck" engine. There's really nothing special about adding a set of forged internal and a huffer to what was otherwise a basic DOHC engine. You wouldn't consider the mills in the Lincoln Mark VIII, Continental, or Mercury Marauder "Race Engines", would you? Take away the forged rotating assembly and Eaton supercharger on the '03-'04 Cobra and that's basically what you've got.
A nice engine and certainly ground breaking 20-years ago when it was first designed (and certainly more modern than the 5.0L OHV it replace) but it's a 1st graders finger painting compared to the Picasso the Coyote's TiVCT is. All Aluminum engine, with 4-bolt mains, forged counterweighted steel crank and integrated oil cooler, twin independent variable cam timing, oil cooled pistons, and heads with flow ratings that would make a Ferrari blush. If the '03-'04 4.6L DOHC is what you'd consider a detuned "race engine", then you must consider the Coyote's 5.0L TiVCT a detuned "space shuttle engine" by comparison?
Not sure how you figure that? A pulley and tune on an '03-'04 Cobra is maybe getting it into the 440-450fwhp range if you're really lucky. The 5.0L TiVCT guys are making those same number with a CAI and tune, sans supercharger. These cost of mods and resulting horsepower increases for each are eerily close with these two cars.
While I agree that the '03-'04 Cobra has the potential to “handle” more horsepower due to the cast iron block and forged internals, the Coyote has the potential to “make” more horsepower across the board bolt on for bolt on and seems to consistently do so. Pretty impressive marks for the 5.0L when you consider the Cobra needs a blower and forged internal to compete with, what the TiVCT is bringing to the table in N/A form.
….again. Love the ’03-’04 Cobra’s. To be quite honest…if it were just a summer cruiser, I’d probably go with the Cobra myself. I’ve got my F150 to daily driver, so owning just to hear the blower whine and see the envious looks I’d get pulling into local hot spots, or sitting at traffic lights alone would be worthwhile. But I am certainly aware I’d be giving up a far “better”, more practical car, for a prettier, more rare one. It’s all about where your priorities lie. Anyone who chooses an ’03-’04 Cobra over an ’11 GT is most certainly choosing form, over function….without a doubt.
What are 03 Cobra's going for these days? DO guys still want $20K for a 100K mile Mustang?>\
Sure...an IRS that was put together with a mish mash of parts to make it compact enough to fit into a chassis that was made to run a solid axle. I'll take the modern 3-link design, complete with panhard bar of the S197 over the compromise of space over function that was mounted in the '03-'04 Cobra. Couple that with the fact that the S197 has the longest wheel base and the most rigid platform ever to wear the Mustang moniker and was designed with a "true" Macpherson strut front suspension design, with lighter front end components and revised suspension geometry in comparison to the old modified Macpherson strut set up they ran for 25-years before that, it's no wonder the S197 was the better handling car. Lets not also forget, although the S197's were criticized for their portly weight, the '03-'04 Cobra's were actually slightly heavier in comparison....carrying most of that weight up front.
As for the claim of the 4.6L being a "detuned race car". It's kinda funny....I always thought of it as a glorified "Truck" engine. There's really nothing special about adding a set of forged internal and a huffer to what was otherwise a basic DOHC engine. You wouldn't consider the mills in the Lincoln Mark VIII, Continental, or Mercury Marauder "Race Engines", would you? Take away the forged rotating assembly and Eaton supercharger on the '03-'04 Cobra and that's basically what you've got.
A nice engine and certainly ground breaking 20-years ago when it was first designed (and certainly more modern than the 5.0L OHV it replace) but it's a 1st graders finger painting compared to the Picasso the Coyote's TiVCT is. All Aluminum engine, with 4-bolt mains, forged counterweighted steel crank and integrated oil cooler, twin independent variable cam timing, oil cooled pistons, and heads with flow ratings that would make a Ferrari blush. If the '03-'04 4.6L DOHC is what you'd consider a detuned "race engine", then you must consider the Coyote's 5.0L TiVCT a detuned "space shuttle engine" by comparison?
Not sure how you figure that? A pulley and tune on an '03-'04 Cobra is maybe getting it into the 440-450fwhp range if you're really lucky. The 5.0L TiVCT guys are making those same number with a CAI and tune, sans supercharger. These cost of mods and resulting horsepower increases for each are eerily close with these two cars.
While I agree that the '03-'04 Cobra has the potential to “handle” more horsepower due to the cast iron block and forged internals, the Coyote has the potential to “make” more horsepower across the board bolt on for bolt on and seems to consistently do so. Pretty impressive marks for the 5.0L when you consider the Cobra needs a blower and forged internal to compete with, what the TiVCT is bringing to the table in N/A form.
….again. Love the ’03-’04 Cobra’s. To be quite honest…if it were just a summer cruiser, I’d probably go with the Cobra myself. I’ve got my F150 to daily driver, so owning just to hear the blower whine and see the envious looks I’d get pulling into local hot spots, or sitting at traffic lights alone would be worthwhile. But I am certainly aware I’d be giving up a far “better”, more practical car, for a prettier, more rare one. It’s all about where your priorities lie. Anyone who chooses an ’03-’04 Cobra over an ’11 GT is most certainly choosing form, over function….without a doubt.
Not criticizing your opinion....just clarifying the misinformation of facts you seemed to be basing yours on.There it is... Forgot what it's like to have a different opinion than you.
As well you should. They're tough as nails and make a lot of power.well i happen to love my glorified truck engine!
I'd take the cobra all day. If you want creature comforts and nice interiors go buy a cadillac. I want a mustang, and i wanna go fast.
I didn't say you specifically...but that is along the lines of what you eluded to with your last comment. You basically faulted the S197 for being a more comfortable and refined car and compared it to a Cadillac and ignored the fact it was as good, or better than the Cobra in every other aspect?Where did i say anything about running rough, gas mileage, or pickup truck ride quality.
On those points I agree (with the exception of the reliability remark)....but then, you didn't mention any of that in your original statement.The cobra is still gonna ride much better than a fox, which is what most of us are used to. I dont want a crappy ride, not the point i was trying to make, just simply saying, id rather have the cobra, it has more character, and responds very well to more boost, bigger blowers and turbos. With reliability that you wont find with a coyote.
Neither of which are common issues. No more common than transmission synchronizer issues that resulted in hard shifting of the Cobra's T56, or stock Cobra engines that burned down during long top end pulls because of a design flaw that stacked up coolant at the rear passages of the driver’s side cylinder head and as a result superheated the antifreeze contributing to piston seizure of the #8 cylinder.[/QUOTE]The new mustangs arent the greatest thing since sliced bread either, they have flaws too. The chinese transmissions have been problematic, and there have been guys cracking pistons in them with simple NA setups.
Not criticizing your opinion....just clarifying the misinformation of facts you seemed to be basing yours on.After all....you were the one who originally questioned my statement regarding the solid axle vs IRS....not the other way around.
Exactly what part of that statement wasn't true? Ford has used essentially the same design for this engine since the early-90's? Sure, they got head and intake "revisions" a tougher rotating assembly and a blower when the stuffed it into the Cobra, but all in all....it's been the same engine it always has for 20-years.Misinformation? You're the one that just told everybody that the engines in the Lincoln Mark VIII, Continental, and Mercury Marauder are basically forged guts and a 'charger away from being a Termi engine.
Yes....essentially. Same layout, bigger displaement, more boost.If the Termi 4.6 is a glorified truck engine, I guess the Ford GT/GT500 5.4L is too...
No, not bad at all..and certainly the best the platform had to offer, but considering the S197 in base GT (and even V6 form) is critisized for its used of tha solid axle, yet still outhandles the IRS equipped flagship model Cobra of the previous generation, I'd say Ford did something right.That IRS, an engineering compromise as it may be, was enough to get the Cobra into .9+ Gs on the skid pad, stock. That may be just ever-so-slightly less than the 2011, but not bad considering it's heavier and has less tire.
Exactly what part of that statement wasn't true? Ford has used essentially the same design for this engine since the early-90's? Sure, they got head and intake "revisions" a tougher rotating assembly and a blower when the stuffed it into the Cobra, but all in all....it's been the same engine it always has for 20-years.
Yes....essentially. Same layout, bigger displaement, more boost.
No, not bad at all..and certainly the best the platform had to offer, but considering the S197 in base GT (and even V6 form) is critisized for its used of tha solid axle, yet still outhandles the IRS equipped flagship model Cobra of the previous generation, I'd say Ford did something right.
...oh and the Cobra got more tire than the S197, not less. 275's all the way around grip better than 235's.
Yeah, the block was cast iron in the Termi's....but more an act to cut cost while improving power. Truth be told, the original Italian built Teksid aluminum blocks the 4.6L DOHC came originally could take every bit as much power as the iron block used in the Cobra. As the matter of fact....I can't remember the last time I heard anyone break a modular block of any kind?I believe all the cars you quoted were aluminum blocks, the Termi is iron, which is at least one huge difference that makes the Cobra 4.6 so bulletproof. Yes, it's obviously the same engine family, but not he same engine. The Termi 4.6 was built right from the factory to handle ludicrous amounts of power, with little compromise.
No, I agree there too. The difference being. The new Coyote was built with the Mustang in mind when it was created. The engine was designed to be compact and light weight to work best within the confines of the S197 engine compartment. It was only used in the F150 after the fact to keep production costs within reason. Built with one vehicle in mind and used in another. Truth be told....most flagship models today originally pirated their power train from some other variant. It's the F150's of the world that keep companies like Ford afloat so we've got these cool new engines to play with.But you recognize the Coyote is used in trucks too, right (as already pointed out)? Does that make the Mustang variant a glorified truck engine?
The S197 Mustang GT was actually out handling the last Cobra's way back in 2005 when they first hit the street and biggest tire available was a 235/55/17.My bad. I ASSumed the Termi used 245s like every other SN-95. And I was referring to the 255-equipped 2011s.
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