Build Thread 1978 Mercury Cyclone. The pig is in the pen.

[CarMichael Angelo]

Ok, after several beers, 4 fireball shots, a private conversation w/ Dave, and time for it all to soak in,........I'm gonna have to do it over.

Probably the biggest factor in that decision is the fact that there is no more paint. I'll have a color mismatch big as sht if I go and buy another gallon, and spray only the remaining pieces. But right behind that in a really close second, is the fact that there simply is too much texture in the paint.

Well,....that and back strokin' bugs, hair, and various chunks of "Now what the hell is that?" dotting the paint job.
I'm confident that if all I had to consider was level of orange peel on the driver side and the roof, I'd attempt color sanding that crap and going forward. But clearly, I've got other more important factors to consider.

Even if I could, there is all kinds of pigment in this color that is light sensitive. I don't know how many of you are familiar w/ Competition Orange, but depending on light, the color leans towards a red hue one time, and in the dark has a completely different blue-ish vibe happening.

I'd imagine that a really intense color sand might compromise that.

So,...at some juncture, The monster will get washed with 800 grit soap. I'll probably commit to building Mike's paint booth to keep bugs and the other junk out of the fray. (Mostly because the fumes that permeated the house afterwards forced me to open the garage door before the paint was dry enough to do so, and that action brought in the bugs and flying junk). I have to do something about covering my entire face for a respirator....(my glasses got covered in overspray, and the beard compromised the seal on my current one. I had to wipe the overspray off the glasses between coats, and I had a really funny looking orange ring around my nose and mouth.)

Building Mike's PB will allow me to vent those fumes outside, and I can keep the envelope that contains the package more debris free as well.

The French, and Spanish both must have tried to do stupid sht like this before, as they've both come up with catch phrases we all use and that is how we'll end this.

C'est la vie, Que sera sera.

 

[Boosted92LX]

Sorry it didn't work well bud. 2nd time's the charm.. Is that how that saying goes?

 

[CarMichael Angelo]

Sorry it didn't work well bud. 2nd time's the charm.. Is that how that saying goes?

No,....The saying goes the third time is a charm......If I don't get this right next time, the third time will be a gun in my mouf.

 

[bird_dog0347]

I've decided when I'm ready to paint mine it would be body work and primer at home, then have a shop finish it depending on cost. That said, the motorcycles I've painted before I did the first time in a garage like that and got the same results. The next couple of times I' built a crappy booth out of plastic drapes. Then I finally got smart and gave it a "frame" to put the plastic on, a box fan sucking the air out through a filter (like for your home AC) and I got MUCH better results.

In your case, as well as when I start to do mine, I'd say build a PVC frame around the car and use full plastic sheeting around it and vent it out with a fan pulling through a filter or two. Get a good seal, and try again. The cost should be minimal with PVC and you won't need a ton of setup or tear down time.

 

[Boosted92LX]

No,....The saying goes the third time is a charm......If I don't get this right next time, the third time will be a gun in my mouf.

You sound like where I am with turbo car things

 

[Davedacarpainter]

Ok, after several beers, 4 fireball shots, a private conversation w/ Dave, and time for it all to soak in,........I'm gonna have to do it over.

Probably the biggest factor in that decision is the fact that there is no more paint. I'll have a color mismatch big as sht if I go and buy another gallon, and spray only the remaining pieces. But right behind that in a really close second, is the fact that there simply is too much texture in the paint.

Well,....that and back strokin' bugs, hair, and various chunks of "Now what the hell is that?" dotting the paint job.
I'm confident that if all I had to consider was level of orange peel on the driver side and the roof, I'd attempt color sanding that crap and going forward. But clearly, I've got other more important factors to consider.

Even if I could, there is all kinds of pigment in this color that is light sensitive. I don't know how many of you are familiar w/ Competition Orange, but depending on light, the color leans towards a red hue one time, and in the dark has a completely different blue-ish vibe happening.

I'd imagine that a really intense color sand might compromise that.

So,...at some juncture, The monster will get washed with 800 grit soap. I'll probably commit to building Mike's paint booth to keep bugs and the other junk out of the fray. (Mostly because the fumes that permeated the house afterwards forced me to open the garage door before the paint was dry enough to do so, and that action brought in the bugs and flying junk). I have to do something about covering my entire face for a respirator....(my glasses got covered in overspray, and the beard compromised the seal on my current one. I had to wipe the overspray off the glasses between coats, and I had a really funny looking orange ring around my nose and mouth.)

Building Mike's PB will allow me to vent those fumes outside, and I can keep the envelope that contains the package more debris free as well.

The French, and Spanish both must have tried to do stupid sht like this before, as they've both come up with catch phrases we all use and that is how we'll end this.

C'est la vie, Que sera sera.

There are full face masks you can buy. You'll sweat like a pig in it though.
And going higher dollar, there are hood type masks that have a battery hip pack to run filtered air up through the mask.
And if you completely lost your mind, you can install a fresh air system that you hook a hose up to your belt connector and get air pumped to you through a dedicated air pump system.
At that stage, buy me an airplane ticket and I'll come shoot it for you instead Mikey.

 

[jrichker]

There are full face masks you can buy. You'll sweat like a pig in it though.
And going higher dollar, there are hood type masks that have a battery hip pack to run filtered air up through the mask.
And if you completely lost your mind, you can install a fresh air system that you hook a hose up to your belt connector and get air pumped to you through a dedicated air pump system.
At that stage, buy me an airplane ticket and I'll come shoot it for you instead Mikey.

Find a friendly fireman and ask him if you can borrow his Scott Air Pack - full face mask, chemical resistant, heat resistant, etc.

 

[Boosted92LX]

Find a friendly fireman and ask him if you can borrow his Scott Air Pack - full face mask, chemical resistant, heat resistant, etc.

Man, those things get heavy quick. And vision through them is shoddy at best, not to mention 99.62135% of prescription glasses don't fit in them. We use the 30 minute packs like that, and the hose type that plug into a 12 pack of big cylinders. Very tough to work in.

I would recommend a good pair of monogoggles that fit over the glasses and trim up the beard. I've worked in several facilities that use the Scott air packs, but the one I'm in now requires us to actually be clean shaven for that very reason. I love taking vacation and letting my whiskers grow.

 

[Black1987]

You could build you a booth like this (stole fro HPjunkies). If it looks stupid but works, it ain't stupid.

 

[Boosted92LX]

Now who around here has done something like that???

 

[bird_dog0347]

I did one like that with all PVC but I put my fans outside the booth sucking air out. Here's another thread that will kinda show it in the background of a guy who did his at home. The thread is FULL of awesomeness as well.

http://forums.corral.net/forums/body-shop/1196724-convertible-rebuild-project-8.html

 

[CarMichael Angelo]

Ok, Just got off the phone with a PPG product specialist. ( A PPG Genius of sorts I guess)

She told me that I should expect poor(er) coverage from shopline products in general, as the pigments are more diluted than they are in a premium paint. She also stated that the orange color added to the need for more coats to achieve the correct coverage. She also stated that because of that, color matching will be a challenge, and implied that there will be enough of a difference between gallons to be noticeable.

She kept calling it a "value line".

Here's my take: It's no "value" if it takes twice as much as a more expensive product to achieve the same result.

She also stated that orange peel is a byproduct of inexperience. It can happen from paint applied too thinly, or "hosed" on just the same. (her words, not mine). She went on to say that whereas a better paint will fix my coverage issues, it won't do a damn thing to control the lizard skin texture I'm managing to create.

That brings me back around to Dilemma #746.......

New paint. A new gallon.

The bumpers are painted in the old stuff.

Does this mean that now the damn bumpers have to be repainted too?

 

[hoopty5.0]

Mike, that sucks on all fronts. This hobby sucks even worse when you want to do something, but it's a something that you can't just whip up one afternoon and say, "Hey, look what I made this afternoon!" Whether it's welding, body working, painting, tuning, etc., It takes a high degree of applied practice.

It may be worth your while to hone your technique with a smaller batch of something cheaper just to figure out how to tune the gun into spraying the correct pressure and pattern. It was almost like your issues with the primer were foreshadowing what was to come with the paint. But, then again, what the eff do I know about painting cars? I grew up around a p&b shop but was never interested enough to pay attention. We just wanted to go fast.

 

[hoopty5.0]

Ok, I am done editing. You may now formulate your response.

 

[Davedacarpainter]

Ok, Just got off the phone with a PPG product specialist. ( A PPG Genius of sorts I guess)

She told me that I should expect poor(er) coverage from shopline products in general, as the pigments are more diluted than they are in a premium paint. She also stated that the orange color added to the need for more coats to achieve the correct coverage. She also stated that because of that, color matching will be a challenge, and implied that there will be enough of a difference between gallons to be noticeable.

She kept calling it a "value line".

Here's my take: It's no "value" if it takes twice as much as a more expensive product to achieve the same result.

She also stated that orange peel is a byproduct of inexperience. It can happen from paint applied too thinly, or "hosed" on just the same. (her words, not mine). She went on to say that whereas a better paint will fix my coverage issues, it won't do a damn thing to control the lizard skin texture I'm managing to create.

That brings me back around to Dilemma #746.......

New paint. A new gallon.

The bumpers are painted in the old stuff.

Does this mean that now the damn bumpers have to be repainted too?

I won't say the gal is filled with sht Mike, there's enough truth in what she's saying to make you think it's your fault.

You can get a nice paint job from the cheap stuff.

That the cheap stuff is essentially watered down is a load of crap, btw. They'll use a cheaper pigment that isn't quite as vibrant as the higher end stuff, but it won't be more transparent.

Variants of red are more transparent than say a black pigment, sure. But it will provide coverage in two coats over a sealed monotone surface.

God I hate talking to paint reps....they want to speak so dogmatically about a subject they read about. What's the saying, those who can't do, teach. She probably felt very intelligent about what she said to you. She's a moron, forget what she said Mike.

A higher end product will have better flow characteristics than the "value" brand too.

You see Mike, what I saw in the photos is an EVEN orange peel over the surface. That is good gun control. That is one of the hardest things for me to teach a new helper.

How about the ty primer and the way it was? Add a little reducer and it was fine.

The first thing to go when buying cheap paint is documentation. In other words, effort to provide help to spray the product in such a way as to achieve a quality result.

The female moron you spoke with wasn't trying to help you spray the paint, she was trying to get you to buy a more expensive product.

Paint reps are good for buying tech's like me lunch, not a hell of a lot else.

Sorry to sound irritated Mike. Paint reps will always put the finger on the person using their product instead of their flipping product in the first place.

 

[Davedacarpainter]

Ok, Just got off the phone with a PPG product specialist. ( A PPG Genius of sorts I guess)

She told me that I should expect poor(er) coverage from shopline products in general, as the pigments are more diluted than they are in a premium paint. She also stated that the orange color added to the need for more coats to achieve the correct coverage. She also stated that because of that, color matching will be a challenge, and implied that there will be enough of a difference between gallons to be noticeable.

She kept calling it a "value line".

Here's my take: It's no "value" if it takes twice as much as a more expensive product to achieve the same result.

She also stated that orange peel is a byproduct of inexperience. It can happen from paint applied too thinly, or "hosed" on just the same. (her words, not mine). She went on to say that whereas a better paint will fix my coverage issues, it won't do a damn thing to control the lizard skin texture I'm managing to create.

That brings me back around to Dilemma #746.......

New paint. A new gallon.

The bumpers are painted in the old stuff.

Does this mean that now the damn bumpers have to be repainted too?

Ok, more ranting.

First, let me explain why this chick irritates me so much. I started painting a long time ago with the idea of being really good at it, to hopefully be known locally as a quality painter that any shop would desire to have work for them.

In this process, I was determined to always be open to learn new things that would improve what I do. I've learned from more experienced painters (though there aren't too many more of those anymore), I've learned from new painters with different ways. I've learned from my helpers that have come up with cool ideas.

Do you want to know from where I've learned the least?

Paint tech reps in general either haven't ever painted in a shop, or have very limited actual production painting time at all.

When I was a young painter, I bought off on the crap they would feed me on how to paint. I've learned through the years though that what they tell you is directed mainly and precisely at what their company says is how to paint.

Why is this a problem? The EPA primarily. Paint manufacturers are forced by the EPA to meet certain VOC (Volitile Organic Compound) release rates. The primary VOC offenders are reducers. So how do they lower the VOC's to make Big Brother happy. They give you an idiot mixing ratio like 8-1-1 Mike!

They eight parts of single stage is fine, the one part hardener/activator is fine as well. The majority of those two compounds just harden into your painted surface. It's that last one part that is the sticky point. Reducers are used primarily to make your paint thin enough to atomize and flow out on your painted surface. In other words, LESS ORANGE PEEL!

If their product really needs more reducer to make it atomize and flow properly, you are left guessing at this. That tech rep has been taught in a classroom that X amount of reducer is what they recommend for the paint you're using. What they fail to add is that it's the proper amount according to EPA fool standards. They aren't taught what it means to really spray the product, they may not have ever mixed and shot it at all.

Your error in your ways here Mike? I'm not sure, did you do a test spray panel before your car? It would have shown this problem. The fact that you sprayed that much paint on your car, without having runs EVERYWHERE, is amazing. That's your orange peel. The paint was just too stinking thick to atomize properly, then what reducer was left to allow it to flow? It wasn't there.

So, blame the EPA, blame those morons at PPG that won't invest enough money into their "Value Line" to make it spray nice and still meet the EPA's regulations.

Beyond not doing a test spray panel first and then calling me (I kept my phone on me Mike), the fault is theirs, they won't admit to it, because then they would have to say their documentation is sht meant to please the government.

I hate what these "Technical Representatives" do, first, theyre idiots that believe they can advise on how to paint. Painting is a CRAFT, that you need to take seriously if you want to get good results. I am a craftsman that has spent years learning and doing what I could to be good at what I do. The tech reps treat it's like you're asking for advise on how to make a grilled cheese sandwich. It's insulting to me and the hard work that I've done for longer than a lot of the fellas on here have been alive.

Ok, I think I'm done ranting Mike. I just might be a little sensitive about this issue.

So, what's a tech rep good for (absolutely nothing, say it again)? They can tell you which hardener goes with which paint. They can tell you their idiot mixing ratios (they are important to know how much hardener to add). They can tell you technical crap about their paint within certain limits. Don't ask the pinheads how to paint.

You pay for my flight out there some weekend Mike, and I'll come paint your car. We can post a how to video for the guys.

 

[Boosted92LX]

Ok, more ranting.

First, let me explain why this chick irritates me so much. I started painting a long time ago with the idea of being really good at it, to hopefully be known locally as a quality painter that any shop would desire to have work for them.

In this process, I was determined to always be open to learn new things that would improve what I do. I've learned from more experienced painters (though there aren't too many more of those anymore), I've learned from new painters with different ways. I've learned from my helpers that have come up with cool ideas.

Do you want to know from where I've learned the least?

Paint tech reps in general either haven't ever painted in a shop, or have very limited actual production painting time at all.

When I was a young painter, I bought off on the crap they would feed me on how to paint. I've learned through the years though that what they tell you is directed mainly and precisely at what their company says is how to paint.

Why is this a problem? The EPA primarily. Paint manufacturers are forced by the EPA to meet certain VOC (Volitile Organic Compound) release rates. The primary VOC offenders are reducers. So how do they lower the VOC's to make Big Brother happy. They give you an idiot mixing ratio like 8-1-1 Mike!

They eight parts of single stage is fine, the one part hardener/activator is fine as well. The majority of those two compounds just harden into your painted surface. It's that last one part that is the sticky point. Reducers are used primarily to make your paint thin enough to atomize and flow out on your painted surface. In other words, LESS ORANGE PEEL!

If their product really needs more reducer to make it atomize and flow properly, you are left guessing at this. That tech rep has been taught in a classroom that X amount of reducer is what they recommend for the paint you're using. What they fail to add is that it's the proper amount according to EPA fool standards. They aren't taught what it means to really spray the product, they may not have ever mixed and shot it at all.

Your error in your ways here Mike? I'm not sure, did you do a test spray panel before your car? It would have shown this problem. The fact that you sprayed that much paint on your car, without having runs EVERYWHERE, is amazing. That's your orange peel. The paint was just too stinking thick to atomize properly, then what reducer was left to allow it to flow? It wasn't there.

So, blame the EPA, blame those morons at PPG that won't invest enough money into their "Value Line" to make it spray nice and still meet the EPA's regulations.

Beyond not doing a test spray panel first and then calling me (I kept my phone on me Mike), the fault is theirs, they won't admit to it, because then they would have to say their documentation is sht meant to please the government.

I hate what these "Technical Representatives" do, first, theyre idiots that believe they can advise on how to paint. Painting is a CRAFT, that you need to take seriously if you want to get good results. I am a craftsman that has spent years learning and doing what I could to be good at what I do. The tech reps treat it's like you're asking for advise on how to make a grilled cheese sandwich. It's insulting to me and the hard work that I've done for longer than a lot of the fellas on here have been alive.

Ok, I think I'm done ranting Mike. I just might be a little sensitive about this issue.

So, what's a tech rep good for (absolutely nothing, say it again)? They can tell you which hardener goes with which paint. They can tell you their idiot mixing ratios (they are important to know how much hardener to add). They can tell you technical crap about their paint within certain limits. Don't ask the pinheads how to paint.

You pay for my flight out there some weekend Mike, and I'll come paint your car. We can post a how to video for the guys.

Hey Dave.. When I bought my paint, the paint counter guy asked me about my gun when i asked about psi. I told him I wasn't using an hvlp, rather an old conventional gravity feed. He was surprised. He told me i needed to crank my pressure at the gun way up to about 50 psi to get this really thick product to atomize, or it would orange peel like nuts. Could it be pressure- or lack of that hurt Mike's finish?

 

[Davedacarpainter]

Hey Dave.. When I bought my paint, the paint counter guy asked me about my gun when i asked about psi. I told him I wasn't using an hvlp, rather an old conventional gravity feed. He was surprised. He told me i needed to crank my pressure at the gun way up to about 50 psi to get this really thick product to atomize, or it would orange peel like nuts. Could it be pressure- or lack of that hurt Mike's finish?

Pressure could have been part of the problem, I'm thinking that Mike knew enough to set the pressure properly for his gun though.

I really think it's just he needed more reducer, because even at low pressure the orange peel wouldn't look like that. Kind of hard to explain on how the appearance is different.

Could be a combo of the two though. But if he would have upped the mixing ratio to like 8-1-2 or 8-1-3, I bet this thread would have a whole different bent to it.

BTW, you fellas in Texas have it harder than most states (except California) in meeting the EPA regs. That's why that guy was surprised by your gun, production painters have to use hvlp guns there.

Why he would tell you that you needed higher pressure than normal for your gun is odd to me. My old Sata Jet's were non-hvlp and I didn't need to up the pressure for single stages or other heavier paints. Hum.....Don't know about your situation Allen, you got it dialed in pretty good though from what I've seen.

 

[Boosted92LX]

Pressure could have been part of the problem, I'm thinking that Mike knew enough to set the pressure properly for his gun though.

I really think it's just he needed more reducer, because even at low pressure the orange peel wouldn't look like that. Kind of hard to explain on how the appearance is different.

Could be a combo of the two though. But if he would have upped the mixing ratio to like 8-1-2 or 8-1-3, I bet this thread would have a whole different bent to it.

BTW, you fellas in Texas have it harder than most states (except California) in meeting the EPA regs. That's why that guy was surprised by your gun, production painters have to use hvlp guns their.

Why he would tell you that you needed higher pressure than normal for your gun is odd to me. My old Sata Jet's were non-hvlp and I didn't need to up the pressure for single stages or other heavier paints. Hum.....Don't know about your situation Allen, you got it dialed in pretty good though from what I've seen.

Maybe it was because of the clear the guy warned me so much about. High solids, extremely thick.

Edit: and yeah, I bought that gun back in the 90s before they passed the hvlp reg.

I may just buy an hvlp gun for painting the F1 though.

 

[Davedacarpainter]

Maybe it was because of the clear the guy warned me so much about. High solids, extremely thick.

Edit: and yeah, I bought that gun back in the 90s before they passed the hvlp reg.

I may just buy an hvlp gun for painting the F1 though.

I'm a fan of high solids clear coats, that spells low VOC content though. So though it looks and seems thick, it has great flow characteristics.

If you want to go upscale on an hvlp, Iawata's are pretty choice guns.