Build Thread 1978 Mercury Cyclone. The pig is in the pen.

jrichker · Oct 6, 2017

madmike1157 said:
This winter, I'm gonna pull the MS out from under my dash, and just get stupid building the programmable outputs for the above scenario and others..it's amazing that a kit, purchased for under 400 bucks will let you do so much.
I intend to exploit all of the possibilities.

Picture of Mike next spring - he has absolutely no hair on his head - it is all been pulled out...
Thick glasses from struggling to read the manual while trying to solder the tiny little components and connections...

Go Mike!

Noobz347 · Oct 6, 2017

Bullitt347 · Oct 6, 2017

a91what said:
yes... but then you have to be paying attention...

-MS turns the WMETH system on.
-in line with the nozzle is a hobbs switch, it gets pressure from the pump and turns on.
-the hobbs switch triggers an input to the MS saying "yes we have WMETH spraying"
-MS takes the input and switches from the no meth[safe] tables to the meth tables[aggressive]
-when boost drops off the MS output to the pump shuts off, pump stops hobbs switch looses pressure input shuts off tables switch back.....

done this way you are setup in a failsafe....

use the grounded output from the MS that triggers the pump as the feed to the hobbs switch, it in turn is used as the input to the MS. done this way if the output never fires the input cannot be triggered raising the timing and leaning the fuel.

Remember back in the day....well, maybe you are to young to remember, IDK, but a dome light was turned on when you opened the door because a spring loaded button made contact with ground and turned the light on. Now a days, the door latch module talks to the body control module which in turn tells the light control module to turn the damn light on.....that is MS. So overly complex it is stupid. Yes I paid a lot more for a FAST XFI engine management system compared to MS, but I guarantee than I have less than 5% of the time spent installing and tuning it compared to a MS system. Time is money, and I am a ton of money ahead of this game lol.

a91what · Oct 6, 2017

Bullitt347 said:
Remember back in the day....well, maybe you are to young to remember, IDK, but a dome light was turned on when you opened the door because a spring loaded button made contact with ground and turned the light on. Now a days, the door latch module talks to the body control module which in turn tells the light control module to turn the damn light on.....that is MS. So overly complex it is stupid. Yes I paid a lot more for a FAST XFI engine management system compared to MS, but I guarantee than I have less than 5% of the time spent installing and tuning it compared to a MS system. Time is money, and I am a ton of money ahead of this game lol.

I think the FAST systems are nice however it runs on the exact same principals that all other ECU do.... its all about hardware and what you can do with it.
my above statement is how I would wire and program the system, you could just turn the pump on with an output or a hobbs switch.... sure it will work but how do you know you are getting the Wmeth into the motor? you could wire it like above or pay umpteen dollars for a safety controller from snow or the like. I am a fan of open source firmware and hardware, I don't like the idea of being confined by the system I chose. These are not hard to tune by any stretch [MS] is simple really but its the fact that Mike has a one off engine build with high compression and a turbo. the car idles and drives like miss daisy it starts everytime he turns the key.

I tune cars on this very site over the internet with little more than a datalog... the only thing that takes time is the fact that I only have a datalog and the information provided within. Speed density takes longer to tune than MAF that's a given, MS can do both. Time is money yes but you cant open your FAST system and reconfigure the hardware, this is where mike is at now.... rebuilding the hardware for options that he wants. not to metion the fact that it can use a canbus protocol to link with other modules... a 300$ micro module can be configured with its own firmware to run a transmission, ABS, traction control..ect or configured as a input/output module for flexibility.

Now lets compare apples to apples go look at the MS3 PRO system no need to open it up and make changes you just tell it what to do.

Bullitt347 · Oct 6, 2017

Fast works with a Can-Bus. Fast has traction control, (heuristic and ITC PA mode), it has a creep feature for spooling a turbo,(trans brake control) EGR control, A/C clutch control, it can use yaw/pitch/roll sensor, sequential speed density, or MAF, individual cylinder timing, individual cylinder enrichment, boost control, power adder controls, torque converter control, knock retard controls, sequential rev limiters, auto learning, staging controls....the beat goes on. I guess it is all in what you are used to. But I doubt the FAST can't do anything that the MS can. In fact it probably does more. It works on a Ford, Mopar or GM, it works on a Nissan,Toyota or Honda, it basically will work on any engine. It will data log anything you can think of. It will control as many fuel injectors as you want, in as many stages as you want (yes that is an added on feature not included with the base system). The main drawback is up front cost, but the tech support is leagues better. I see all the time the issues that folks have with MS, it is well documented what a cluster f*uck it is to the average Joe. Mad props to those who stick to it and find solutions, but sometimes there are no solutions. I could point you to quite a few threads with frustrated users who have gone round and round with MS "support" showing them exactly what the issue is only to get the "meh" "we don't see it that way" answer. Datalogs be damned. Again, Take a MS system and a FAST system or Holley for that matter, and log the number of hrs involved to get it up and running seamlessly and the FAST or Holley user is done and enjoying life days, weeks or months before the MS guy has any semblance of a decent running car. You have an intimate knowledge of the MS system and therefore are comfortable with it's peculiarities, the average guy starting for the first time is beyond hope in figuring it out on their own. A FAST or Holley user can be up to speed in no time in comparison. And that is worth the extra up front costs.

All that being said, it is obvious that you will see it your way, and I certainly will NEVER be using a MS system. Again mad props to you for your perseverance in working with and through the MS system. Your type are few and far between. And that is worth a lot. Mike is lucky to know you.

a91what · Oct 6, 2017

Not to derail the thread any further.... but.... apples to apples... this is nothing like tuning a standard MS system, its laid out in a very different way. really cant go wrong here... only cavat is if you are not running an LS motor you need to wire in your sensor plugs to the harness.... compared to this mike may as well be using a carburetor.
https://www.diyautotune.com/product/ms3pro-ultimate-standalone-ecu-only/

CarMichael Angelo · Oct 7, 2017

Noobz347 said:

Look at how perfectly lit that picture is.....I wanna learn how to make an engine in a machine shop look like a trophy.

CarMichael Angelo · Oct 7, 2017

I'll admit it..the single worst thing about a MSII system is the process that you have to go through to get a tech question answered.
If somebody would write a great owners manual for that system, w/ absolutely clear and concise explanations of the whys and hows so you'd be able to choose this path or another in the build/tuning phase of this thing...they'd be rich.
Including this last one, I've built three of these things,..the other two never saw the car project finish, and got sold off as complete builds to other people.
But the first one I ever purchased, I opened the box, looked at the myriad of doo-dad circuitry, closed the box back up, and asked for my money back.
The fact that Steve is here to help is a great benefit to be sure, and not taking anything away from him if he wasn't, I'd manage to figure this out one way or the other. When I first attempted to start the car when I finished the build, the car started and ran almost right off w/ very little dicking around..before I ever knew who Steve was.

I always find the " My time is money" argument humorous....How much money do you have to spend before your time is the more cost effective option?

3 times? 5 times? 10 times? More?

Would you pay 6 times more to have a tech guy on the phone when you need him?

My MSII kit cost 279.00. I had to buy a harness, and a simulator to test the build progress, so, we'll say I'm in the thing for a little under 400.00. Ohh,...and let's not forget my "time" to build.....8 hours sitting in my pajamas over two weekend mornings in the dead of winter. ( And to think of all of the other things I could've been doing instead...the mind can only wonder...)

A Fast xfi 2.0 sells for $2518.00 new from Jegs....a Holley dominator system starts at 2k for the stand alone ecu only... Still needing sensors, software & the harness.

I'd expect that a Fast or Holley can do anything that a MSII can do..( I'd hope they would, they are after all 6-8 times more expensive)

It's all about the hobby for me, building the car is always the fun part. Knowing that the car is running because the ECU is something that I assembled from Several baggies of circuitry is way more satisfying then knowing I saved a bunch of time getting it there.

Noobz347 · Oct 7, 2017

madmike1157 said:
Look at how perfectly lit that picture is.....I wanna learn how to make an engine in a machine shop look like a trophy.

Me too.

90sickfox · Oct 7, 2017

@Bullitt347

I wouldn't trade MS for anything else. Guess it depends on if you want to buy a 3 month old fish shipped in from overseas.... Or learn how to catch them yourself. With MS you have to learn the tuning and how to build the circuits..

This brings a higher understanding of all vehicle ecu platforms. It even has become useful in the diagnostic procedures I go through at work.

Bang for the buck....I saved thousands of dollars over those systems and have the benefit of learning the ins and outs of the system. I bought mine " plug and play "....but next time I'll buy a kit and build my own.

Sure, we could all save money by buying a new car with 400+HP from the dealer. ..but the challenge is gone. If something doesn't work then drop it off to be serviced. Thats great for some folks...but the majority of people I see here seem to enjoy building and dropping thousands of dollars into a fox mustang.....just to get above 300hp. We obviously seem to enjoy the thrills of building something ourselves over having someone do it for us. We may be crazy....but in the end....after all the cussin'...if we have a car that looks decent, drives decent, and runs decent, we have the satisfaction of knowing we did that.

How valuable is the time spent learning something new and complicated ? Colleges seem to think its worth hundreds of thousands of dollahs...

And... @91what is a very valuable person to us all. Without him my turbo project may have been ditched for long tubes and a cookie cutter combo.

95BlueStallion · Oct 7, 2017

I like turtles.

CarMichael Angelo · Oct 7, 2017

95BlueStallion said:
I like turtles.

your car is a turtle.

Bullitt347 · Oct 7, 2017

90sickfox said:
@Bullitt347

I wouldn't trade MS for anything else. Guess it depends on if you want to buy a 3 month old fish shipped in from overseas.... Or learn how to catch them yourself. With MS you have to learn the tuning and how to build the circuits..
.

Tuning is tuning. Learning how to build a circuit has nothing to do with tuning. I consider myself a fair tuner, IE, I have not blown my sh*t up after 3 seasons of racing, going from C16 to Q16 and now on E85. The car is quicker and faster than it has ever been with zero problems making now around 1,200+ HP @ 20 psi. I have the quickest and fastest 2.8L Kenne Bell S/C SBF on the planet. (5.33 @ 133.45 in the 1/8 @ 3170 lbs) Probably has something to do with being the only one on the planet willing to make it work. So it is not some 3 month old fish shipped in from overseas. I have spent hundreds of hrs on doing and redoing and design and fab work to make it work, I could have probably gone quicker and faster for less money and spent far less time by buying what everyone else was using. So I know a little something about taking the road less traveled...lol

Bullitt347 · Oct 7, 2017

90sickfox said:
@Bullitt347

And... @91what is a very valuable person to us all. Without him my turbo project may have been ditched for long tubes and a cookie cutter combo.

And if you had purchased a FAST or Holley the thought of ditching the project would have never entered your mind.

90sickfox · Oct 7, 2017

Bullitt347 said:
And if you had purchased a FAST or Holley the thought of ditching the project would have never entered your mind.

Believe me.... I would've still thought about it....believe me. ( in my best Trump voice )

90sickfox · Oct 7, 2017

Bullitt347 said:
Tuning is tuning. Learning how to build a circuit has nothing to do with tuning. I consider myself a fair tuner, IE, I have not blown my sh*t up after 3 seasons of racing, going from C16 to Q16 and now on E85. The car is quicker and faster than it has ever been with zero problems making now around 1,200+ HP @ 20 psi. I have the quickest and fastest 2.8L Kenne Bell S/C SBF on the planet. (5.33 @ 133.45 in the 1/8 @ 3170 lbs) Probably has something to do with being the only one on the planet willing to make it work. So it is not some 3 month old fish shipped in from overseas. I have spent hundreds of hrs on doing and redoing and design and fab work to make it work, I could have probably gone quicker and faster for less money and spent far less time by buying what everyone else was using. So I know a little something about taking the road less traveled...lol

The FAST makes your car " fast ".....

That takes a lot of work and money to be the fastest. My car isn't on that level. I respect every ones opinion.....if I had an extra 5k I'd probably buy Holley efi ...but that's my t56 money.lol

Bullitt347 · Oct 7, 2017

90sickfox said:
The FAST makes your car " fast ".....

That takes a lot of work and money to be the fastest. My car isn't on that level. I respect every ones opinion.....if I had an extra 5k I'd probably buy Holley efi ...but that's my t56 money.lol

It is around $2,500ish not $5k. Regardless, still a chunk of change to be sure.

CarMichael Angelo · Oct 8, 2017

Well, it's Sunday. Tropical Storm Nate is dumping rain outside. Yesterday was my last day to play....Monday, I start back to work full time. 6weeks after a double total knee replacement..

My knees still swell like a btch. And they get painful and stiff as a result. I am told that it's to be expected, all things considered, so it is what it is.

I figured out why you don't see a rash of threads with guys agonizing over how to correctly vent their engines, and the measures that they had to go through to fix it.

It's cause they finally find a head slap cure that fixes it, and they move on.

In my case, my head slap ( in addition to the home made HD puke tank) was, drum roll please.............
A second valve cover breather.

Once installed, you only see a tiny waft of vapor escape that filter while the engine is hot idling, and after driving the thing 40 miles yesterday, it left no oily film on the valve cover as you might expect and the puke tank has next to nothing in it.
So for now....my engine venting issue is bandaged...

The newer tune is also showing some promise...I spoke with Autolite tech and my turbo guy about my detonation problem...One of the recommendations was to go colder on the plugs, and change the tune to heat the chamber back up commensurately.
Right now, I'm two steps colder than " stock", but that is relative.

What the hell is "stock" on this engine?

A subsequent test pull showed only the slightest incidence of ping, but again...it's hard to tell with this engine.
Maybe I put a knock sensor on the damn thing? Do people actually use those things? Can people use these things to tune a high perf engine?, or is that something best relied upon by regular gas Dingus to make sure he doesn't melt down the RV? It's still not right, and power is way down compared to before..but considering I couldn't keep my foot in it anyway what difference does it make?
Either I slow it down and drive it, or hop it up and have to lift.

I'm telling ya, the water meth is gonna be my hallelujah moment..

Besides trying to sort that out, At most I might make one more of these week end cruise ins before winter officially ends the cruise in season in Birmingham..I took it to a small one yesterday....

It amazes me that:
A. A lot of guys have never heard of a Cyclone.
B. For those that have,..they didn't know when those cars were made.

I get the guy that'll come up to me and say,..I've heard of these things, but I've never seen one up close.

To which I tell him, You still haven't, this is a Fairmont, wearing Cyclone badges....Cyclone officially stopped in 1972, this car is a 1978.

Which brings me to:
C. A lot of guys have never seen a Fairmont.

Kinda leaves them with a totally confused, dumb look on their face.

Anyway,..for the sake of foregoing one more weekend of the same ole, same ole....

I could begin on the list...
That involves taking the dash top off....
And,
That disables the car...

jrichker · Oct 8, 2017

From what I know, the knock sensors are engine type and model specific. Each engine type and model has a specific range of frequencies that the knock sensor is tuned for and ignores the rest. It's hit the right frequency, and the sensor resonates and it sends a signal to the computer.

Bullitt347 · Oct 8, 2017

Mike needs to look into this if he want to get serious about knock protection.
http://www.jandssafeguard.com/

Build Thread 1978 Mercury Cyclone. The pig is in the pen.

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