1990Coupe *OFFICIAL* 2008 NFL thread

[5.0_GT_kid]

now u guys know im not a pats fan boy but damn saying belichik isn't a great coach is just rediculous. if he isn't great then please PLEASE tell me who is great.

Again, he looks great when you only take into consideration his time with the Brady led Patriots, but when you factor his time in Cleveland and his one season in NE without Brady and he does not look as impressive. He was a complete failure in Cleveland and his first year in Cleveland.

As for who is great, well my list would go like this, in no particular order.

- Mike Shanahan. Two Super Bowl rings and a consistent, proven winner.
- Tony Dungy. Led pereniall losers Tampa Bay to the playoffs 4 out of the 6 years he was there. SB title with the Colts.
- Jeff Fisher. Has always fielded competitive teams even with poor roster moves by the the GM/Owner
- Andy Reid. Turned around the Eagles and led them to the playoffs 5 straight years.
- Mike Holmgren. Like Shanahan, he's a consistent and proven winner.

 

[gt40_2003wes]

May I ask what makes him great? Wouldn't the statistics point otherwise?

no they wouldnt u cant tell me that any other coach could have done jack with cleveland either.

what statistics do u want he took a overlooked qb that fell LATE LATE LATE in the draft and turned him into one of the best qb's the game has seen built the team up around him and put up a legendary season and this year with a roster full of engerys he is in the hunt for the playoffs what more do u need?

 

[gt40_2003wes]

Again, he looks great when you only take into consideration his time with the Brady led Patriots, but when you factor his time in Cleveland and his one season in NE without Brady and he does not look as impressive. He was a complete failure in Cleveland and his first year in Cleveland.

As for who is great, well my list would go like this, in no particular order.

- Mike Shanahan. Two Super Bowl rings and a consistent, proven winner.
- Tony Dungy. Led pereniall losers Tampa Bay to the playoffs 4 out of the 6 years he was there. SB title with the Colts.
- Jeff Fisher. Has always fielded competitive teams even with poor roster moves by the the GM/Owner
- Andy Reid. Turned around the Eagles and led them to the playoffs 5 straight years.
- Mike Holmgren. Like Shanahan, he's a consistent and proven winner.

shanahan i also consider him a great coach but what would he have done without elway one of the best qb's to ever step on the field and davis in the backfield?


tony dungy a awesome coach aswell but would he have won his superbowl without peyton, harrison, wayne, clark or that fast defensive front?


fisher cant argue with u one bit there has taken no talent and has been competitive year in and year out.

reid not what i would call a great coach but definately very good what he did with that eagles program was impressive but who did he have oh yea mcnabb, westbrook, and one of the best defenses in the game in the early part of his time there.

and then theres holmgren again no argument here i loved him and still do but besides from what 1 and a half years at the seahawks his time there has been a fluke and prolly wont be back as there coach.




what im tryin to say is that the ones u mentioned were all good or great aswell but why in the world wouldnt u include belichik in there with those guys? he is a great coach just like mnost of the ones u named.

 

[mrvax]

Take into consideration how Belicheck is a defensive genius. He is a ruthless bastid that can figure out a team's weakness and exploit it better than just about anyone. His time with Bill Parcells shows a clear pattern of his excellence. Parcells overall record with and without Belichick is dramatic. Parcells is barely above .500 without "Little Bill." Belichick has an uncanny understanding of the game.

Belichick helped the Giants win their 1st 2 Superbowls after the 1986 and then the 1990 seasons.

When finally coupled with a decent QB, Belichick went on to win 3 more Superbowls with the Pats.

Look at the Miami dolphins when they had Dan Marino. Marino was a great QB. How many Superbowls did his head coaches end up winning with him behind center? None.

 

[TheRican]

I think Tom Coughlin is not too shabby of a Head Coach.

 

[mrvax]

I think Tom Coughlin is not too shabby of a Head Coach.

He now has the Giants making the playoffs 4 years in a row. Last year when they made it 3x in a row, I believe there were only 3 other teams that could make the same claim.

 

[jasonh_86]

Again, he looks great when you only take into consideration his time with the Brady led Patriots, but when you factor his time in Cleveland and his one season in NE without Brady and he does not look as impressive. He was a complete failure in Cleveland and his first year in Cleveland.

As for who is great, well my list would go like this, in no particular order.

- Mike Shanahan. Two Super Bowl rings and a consistent, proven winner.
- Tony Dungy. Led pereniall losers Tampa Bay to the playoffs 4 out of the 6 years he was there. SB title with the Colts.
- Jeff Fisher. Has always fielded competitive teams even with poor roster moves by the the GM/Owner
- Andy Reid. Turned around the Eagles and led them to the playoffs 5 straight years.
- Mike Holmgren. Like Shanahan, he's a consistent and proven winner.

If Shanahan is, then how could you say Belichick isn't?! That makes no damn sense at all. Shanahan was terrible in Oakland, so that's the same argument as the Belichick in Cleveland argument.

Dungy is fortunate to have Manning. Reid has McNabb and Westbrook, but still can't win the big one.

See how that's going? If you say it about Belichick, it applies for all of those that I mentioned (Shanahan, Dungy, Reid).

How about Belichick stomping Shanahan this year? He didn't have Brady and Shanahan had Cutler. Oh wait, because of injuries right? Excuses.

shanahan i also consider him a great coach but what would he have done without elway one of the best qb's to ever step on the field and davis in the backfield?


tony dungy a awesome coach aswell but would he have won his superbowl without peyton, harrison, wayne, clark or that fast defensive front?


fisher cant argue with u one bit there has taken no talent and has been competitive year in and year out.

reid not what i would call a great coach but definately very good what he did with that eagles program was impressive but who did he have oh yea mcnabb, westbrook, and one of the best defenses in the game in the early part of his time there.

and then theres holmgren again no argument here i loved him and still do but besides from what 1 and a half years at the seahawks his time there has been a fluke and prolly wont be back as there coach.




what im tryin to say is that the ones u mentioned were all good or great aswell but why in the world wouldnt u include belichik in there with those guys? he is a great coach just like mnost of the ones u named.

+1

Take into consideration how Belicheck is a defensive genius. He is a ruthless bastid that can figure out a team's weakness and exploit it better than just about anyone. His time with Bill Parcells shows a clear pattern of his excellence. Parcells overall record with and without Belichick is dramatic. Parcells is barely above .500 without "Little Bill." Belichick has an uncanny understanding of the game.

Belichick helped the Giants win their 1st 2 Superbowls after the 1986 and then the 1990 seasons.

When finally coupled with a decent QB, Belichick went on to win 3 more Superbowls with the Pats.

Look at the Miami dolphins when they had Dan Marino. Marino was a great QB. How many Superbowls did his head coaches end up winning with him behind center? None.

Exactly! How many of those games did Tom Brady play on defense when they were stifling Peyton in the playoffs? How many defensive snaps did Brady play when they were at the top or near the top of the league in defense? Exactly, none. Troy Brown was playing defense for them, that's an example of how much of a genius Belichick is with defense; taking a reciever and putting him as a db and making it work just fine.

Belichick has taken what he's been given to work with and made the most out of it. He's a great coach.

So I guess there are no great coaches ever since they've all had at least one great player on their team. Vince Lombardi, Chuck Knoll, Bill Walsh, Bill Parcells, etc. See how ignorant of an argument that is? That's how it sounds when people make it about Brady/Belichick. You can't say it's any different, because it's not.

 

[5.0_GT_kid]

shanahan i also consider him a great coach but what would he have done without elway one of the best qb's to ever step on the field and davis in the backfield?

That team had Elway long before Shanahan was head coach, Shanahan built the team (including Davis) that went to the Super Bowl. Even after losing Elway, Davis, Atwater, Sharpe...etc, Shanny has taken that team to the playoffs 4 times and only posted 2 losing seasons.

tony dungy a awesome coach aswell but would he have won his superbowl without peyton, harrison, wayne, clark or that fast defensive front?

Maybe, maybe not...but you can't deny the consistent success he has had, especially with the loser Bucs.

reid not what i would call a great coach but definately very good what he did with that eagles program was impressive but who did he have oh yea mcnabb, westbrook, and one of the best defenses in the game in the early part of his time there.

Reid built that team and took them to the playoffs 6 out of 9 years with a Super Bowl appearance.

what im tryin to say is that the ones u mentioned were all good or great aswell but why in the world wouldnt u include belichik in there with those guys? he is a great coach just like mnost of the ones u named.

What Belichick has not done that those coaches have, is proven himself as a winner without a HOF QB leading the team. None of those coaches have failed with another team and been run out of town.

 

[5.0_GT_kid]

If Shanahan is, then how could you say Belichick isn't?! That makes no damn sense at all. Shanahan was terrible in Oakland, so that's the same argument as the Belichick in Cleveland argument.

No, it's not the same. Shanahan only spent two years in Los Angeles before getting run out by the Crypt Keeper, and lets be honest...that place has been a revolving door for coaches ever since then.

Dungy is fortunate to have Manning.

Did ok without him in Tampa.

Reid has McNabb and Westbrook, but still can't win the big one.

No, but he's gotten them very deep into the playoffs for many years.

How about Belichick stomping Shanahan this year? He didn't have Brady and Shanahan had Cutler. Oh wait, because of injuries right? Excuses.

Do you really want to go down that road? Shanny is 5-2 against Belichick and BB's only other win came in 2003 when the Broncos were down to a 3rd string QB going into the game, which still went down to the wire.

How about that 2005 playoff game?

I hope you enjoyed that win, because if history is any indication, the Broncos will continue to own the Patriots just like they have for decades.

 

[jasonh_86]

No, it's not the same. Shanahan only spent two years in Los Angeles before getting run out by the Crypt Keeper, and lets be honest...that place has been a revolving door for coaches ever since then.

Did ok without him in Tampa.

No, but he's gotten them very deep into the playoffs for many years.

Do you really want to go down that road? Shanny is 5-2 against Belichick and BB's only other win came in 2003 when the Broncos were down to a 3rd string QB going into the game, which still went down to the wire.

How about that 2005 playoff game?

I hope you enjoyed that win, because if history is any indication, the Broncos will continue to own the Patriots just like they have for decades.

3rd string quarterback, who cares. Stop making excuses. The Pats beat the absolute crap out of the Broncos with a backup QB and shut down that high-scoring offense to only 7 points, which they didn't get until the 4th quarter. Belichick's defense was much better than Denver was ready for.

So, I guess just because Indy has beaten the Pats 3 out of the last 4 times or so that it means the Patriots will own them for many decades.. although Peyton didn't win in Foxboro for many years and Brady has pretty much owned him over the course of his career.

 

[04DarkShadowGT]

There is a difference between college basketball and PROFESSIONAL football. Every team has talent to work with, some more than others, but they all have it. They are all professionals. I never said BB was a bad coach, I didn't even say he was normal. I said he was above average, and far from great.

Ok so do you think Phil Jackson could go coach the Oklahoma City Thunder and make them compete with the Celtics or Lakers?

Both are pro teams right?

Both have pro talent right?

Nobody can win in any pro sport if you are coaching for a poorly run and bad team. The facts are as follows...

The Pats were 5-11 his first season, that isnt exactly out of the ordinary to have a bad season your first year.

The Pats won a SB with Brady in 01 and Brady wasnt exactly a superstar that year. In fact he wasnt just ok in the Super Bowl - 16/27 145yds and 1 TD.

They went on to win 3 titles in 4 years. If you have 3 rings you are above average no matter what talent you have.

The Pats winning 3 rings in this era of football is more impressive than what the 90s Cowboys, 80s Niners, 70s Steelers did BY FAR.

So are you saying that since Chuck Noll of the vaunted 70s Steelers is just above average because all his titles were with Terry Bradshaw?

Record w/o Bradshaw - 60-80
Record w/ Bradshaw - 132-70 with 4 rings

Just sayin...




And this comming from a guy who dislikes that Pats.

 

[Bluffing024]

Ok so do you think Phil Jackson could go coach the Oklahoma City Thunder and make them compete with the Celtics or Lakers?

Both are pro teams right?

Both have pro talent right?

Are you dense? This isn't basketball. Basketball has no salary cap and that lets the talent balance get way out of whack. Apples to Oranges.

Nobody can win in any pro sport if you are coaching for a poorly run and bad team.

I never said BB was a bad coach, did I? Your point is null.

 

[04DarkShadowGT]

You need one of two things to win a title in the NFL. A superstar QB or a great defense. No coach is going win without either or both.

Lets look at the past champions..

2008 - NY Giants, solid QB and unbelieveable defense

2007 - Indy Colts, all time great QB and solid D when it counted

2006 - Pittsburgh Steelers, great D and solid young QB

2005 - NE Patriots, all time great QB and solid to good D

2004 - NE Patriots, all time great QB and solid to good D

2003 - TB Bucaneers, all time great D and game manager QB

2002 - NE Patriots, Great D and up and commer QB

2001 - Baltimore, all time great D and game manager QB

2000 - STL Rams, Great QB and offense, average D

1999 - Den Broncos, all time great QB, good D

1998 - Den Broncos, all time great QB, good D

1997 - Packers - Favre and awesome D

1996 - Cowboys - Aikman and incredible team everywhere

1995 - 49ers - Steve Young and solid D

1994 and 1993 - Dallas - Aikman, Smith, Defense, etc

1992 - Redskins - Awesome offense lead league in points and 3rd ranked D

1991 - NY Giants - Phil Simms and LT

1990 and 1989 - 49ers - Montana

ETC...




Now bTW to your Shanahan being great argument, Elway went to THREE other super bowls before him. Terrel Davis had as much or more than those SB wins than Shanahan.

Are you dense? This isn't basketball. Basketball has no salary cap and that lets the talent balance get way out of whack. Apples to Oranges.

I never said BB was a bad coach, did I? Your point is null.

Ok fine, go throw your boy Shanahan on the lions, they arent competing with anyone.

I didnt say you said BB was a bad coach, I said you cant win in poorly run or bad organizations such as Cleveland or Oakland.

I mean come on guys you really cant be that dumb can you?

 

[Bluffing024]

Ok fine, go throw your boy Shanahan on the lions, they arent competing with anyone.

My boy Shanahan? I've not mentioned him.

I mean come on guys you really cant be that dumb can you?

No, but you apparently are.

 

[jasonh_86]

You need one of two things to win a title in the NFL. A superstar QB or a great defense. No coach is going win without either or both.

Lets look at the past champions..

2008 - NY Giants, solid QB and unbelieveable defense

2007 - Indy Colts, all time great QB and solid D when it counted

2006 - Pittsburgh Steelers, great D and solid young QB

2005 - NE Patriots, all time great QB and solid to good D

2004 - NE Patriots, all time great QB and solid to good D

2003 - TB Bucaneers, all time great D and game manager QB

2002 - NE Patriots, Great D and up and commer QB

2001 - Baltimore, all time great D and game manager QB

2000 - STL Rams, Great QB and offense, average D

1999 - Den Broncos, all time great QB, good D

1998 - Den Broncos, all time great QB, good D

1997 - Packers - Favre and awesome D

1996 - Cowboys - Aikman and incredible team everywhere

1995 - 49ers - Steve Young and solid D

1994 and 1993 - Dallas - Aikman, Smith, Defense, etc

1992 - Redskins - Awesome offense lead league in points and 3rd ranked D

1991 - NY Giants - Phil Simms and LT

1990 and 1989 - 49ers - Montana

ETC...




Now bTW to your Shanahan being great argument, Elway went to THREE other super bowls before him. Terrel Davis had as much or more than those SB wins than Shanahan.




Ok fine, go throw your boy Shanahan on the lions, they arent competing with anyone.

I didnt say you said BB was a bad coach, I said you cant win in poorly run or bad organizations such as Cleveland or Oakland.
I mean come on guys you really cant be that dumb can you?

Thank God somebody with common sense and a non-biased opinion comes into this and points out the obvious.

The Pats D in '03 and '04 was what realllllyyy helped them win those playoff games against that high-powered Colts team; the Pats never put more than 24 up on them if I'm correct. And what does Belichick run? The defense.

My boy Shanahan? I've not mentioned him.





No, but you apparently are.

No, apparently you are. You're too closed-minded to realize that the Patriots run these past few years is much more than Brady being a great QB. They've had a solid defense that's helped them win in the playoffs more than their offense did.

You can't win a damn thing if you don't have a great coach; it doesn't matter the talent level you have, you have to have the coaching to get it there.

Look at Matt Cassel this year; 7th round draft pick, didn't have a start since '99 in High School, only 33 pass attempts in college.. and then he comes in here this year and plays solidly. He was coached up the exact same way Brady was since he got into the Pats system; they know how to coach up talent and get the most out of what they have. Watch when Cassel goes somewhere else, he won't be near as good. I like the guy and hope he succeeds, but it's a fact.

 

[Bluffing024]

Look at Matt Cassel this year; 7th round draft pick, didn't have a start since '99 in High School, only 33 pass attempts in college.. and then he comes in here this year and plays solidly. He was coached up the exact same way Brady was since he got into the Pats system; they know how to coach up talent and get the most out of what they have. Watch when Cassel goes somewhere else, he won't be near as good. I like the guy and hope he succeeds, but it's a fact.

When was he good in the first place? My little brother could throw for 400 yards to Moss and Welker. He has a 85 QB Rating. Fairly AVERAGE.

 

[gt40_2003wes]

omg this is just rediculous these guys are do hard headed it isn't even funny i mean damn there is sucha thing as being a fan and then being a retarded fan that is completely blinded by there love for there team or hate for another.

u guy are right belichick isn't great he is average which puts the rest of the coaches in the league at less then average have a great day.

 

[Venom351R]

Belichick is a way above avg coach. Cassel is a good QB who needs a lot of work. He would make a good starter for another team who needs a QB (hes better then a number of starters out there now) but hes no Tom Brady replacement.

With the Patriots belichick has only lost 2 games in the post season with numerous trips. Not many coachs can say that.

 

[Back in Black]

3rd string quarterback, who cares. Stop making excuses. :

Then please stop with the "The Pats have nothing to work with". teams would die to have some of the guys the Pats have playing this year.

And I keep reading about how would the Steelers do without their QB, RB, Troy, Two best line backers yada yada yada. Well to answer your question, The Steelers have had all kinds of injuries this year and are rolling with only three losses. Oh yeah, they happen to have the hardest schedule in the league. Their December is statisticly the hardest ever in the history of the league.
Troy missed time this year, Ben has been hurt for most of the year, Willie has missed most of the year, Moore is our 4TH string back cause the others are hurt, Arron Smith has been banged up, Bret Kiesel missed time, Townsend has been busted up, Clark missed time and is still playing saftey with a shoulder sling. . . . . you get the point?

 

[Back in Black]

So are you saying that since Chuck Noll of the vaunted 70s Steelers is just above average because all his titles were with Terry Bradshaw?

Record w/o Bradshaw - 60-80
Record w/ Bradshaw - 132-70 with 4 rings

.

Most of those losses came in the 80's when he lost Bradshaw, Greene, Greenwood, Harris, Swann and Stallworth, Holmes, Lambert, Ham, Blount, Webster, and so on and so on, The team HE built through the draft retired and for over 10 years the were ultra competitive. they had really high draft picks (30, 30,29,29,30,30ish) for years after winning four SB in 6 seasons. Naturaully there is going to be a rebuilding process. But what he did do in the 80's was set the foundation for what Bill cowher had when he tok over. Future HOF possiblities from that era that Noll drafted < Dawson, Lloyd, Greene, Lipps, Woodson. . .so that point is void

Those guys were all drafted by Noll. He took a team that was the laughing stock of the eah,league for years, won one game his first year, and was in the AFC championchip game the next year. BB had a pretty well built team when he took over.

Walsh did the same as Noll in the late seventies and the Cowboys built their team also. The Pats built them but Parcells built the foundation.

By the way, Brady wasn't seen as this great future HOF QB when he was drafted. Bledsoe never gets hurt I highly doubt Brady sees much time the year he broke out.