2005 GT vs. 2001 Bullitt/03-04Mach 1
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Do a search, we just discussed this.
The 05 will blow away the earlier Mustangs in handling and comfort. Rumors are that the 05 GT engine actually puts out significantly more than 300 HP. According to the Ford engineer I spoke with, the 05 - 3V engine is as good if not better than the 03-04 Mach 4V engine.
The 05 will blow away the earlier Mustangs in handling and comfort. Rumors are that the 05 GT engine actually puts out significantly more than 300 HP. According to the Ford engineer I spoke with, the 05 - 3V engine is as good if not better than the 03-04 Mach 4V engine.
blazinsteed
New Member
351 I see that you have a lot of opinions on the mach. Just out of curiosity have you driven the mach and or on any track surfaces?
I'm not just talking power performance wise. I mean the car as a whole. For example the bullitt and Mach have upgraded interior, braking, and handling as well as engine ugrades over a standard GT. I personally have not seen a 05 so I dont know how comfortable they are and how it handles, brakes etc. Oviously the 05 GT will out perform a 04 GT, but do they perform against the mach and bullitt?
kirkyg
Founding Member
blazinsteed said:
I agree if you drove a mach you wouldn't down them. They are a NICE package. I think that the new mustang will be in line with their performance though. Low 13 second cars for sure. I think the defining factor more than just straight line performance out of the box will be handling and fit and finish / build quality.kirkyg
blazinsteed said:
Drove a Mach 1 on the street. A dealer had a used 03 with only 4K miles on it. I thought long and hard about buying it, but in the end came to the conclusion that it would be pure foolishness to get the Mach 1 instead of waiting for the 05.
I will not argue with you, the 03/04 Mach 1 is head and shoulders above a common GT like my 01. The 03/04 Cobras and Mach 1's are the best Mustangs ever sold as of today (5/28/04) But in the end the 04 Mach 1 is still just a dressed up 1978 Fairmont. The 05 GT will blow away the Mach in handling and comfort and IMHO looks too. It WILL be the best Mustang ever.
Lets go over the facts:
- 05 GT will be as fast in a straight line as the Mach 1
- 6" longer wheelbase with 52/48 instead of 57/43 F/R weight distribution
- 2" wider track front and rear.
- Unibody is 50% stiffer
- All new front suspension that is a true McPhearson strut coil over with proper geometry and the roll center at the height it should be.
- Coil over design reduces un-sprung weight
- All new 3 link with Panhard bar rear suspension that has a much lower roll center and won't have the side loading binding problems.
- New steering rack, with 3' smaller turning radius
- Handling and stability will be much better due to above improvements
- The 3V engine is just as stout as the Mach 1 and runs on 87 Octane
- The seats on the 05 are much, much better, yes even better than the Mach 1 seats.
- IMHO Interior styling blows the old Stang away
- IMHO The exterior styling blows the old Stang away.
- Since the 05 is being built with new tooling at Ford's best plant, AAI, overall build quality will be better.
- The overall ride quality will be MUCH better
- Noise Vibration and Harshness is drastically improved
- The trunk is larger
- I like the larger diameter tires
- The shifter is in a much better location
- Message center
- The 3 spoke steering wheel looks awesome compared to the old corporate Ford steering wheel.
- One touch auto up and down windows both driver & passenger
- Global open of the windows from the remote
- The driver's seat properly points straight ahead instead of angling to the left.
- The 05 brakes will be almost as good as the Bullitt & Mach 1 brakes
- Traction control is a newer and improved design
- Side airbags are available
- Improved anti-theft system available
- same 31 spline rear axles as the Mach
- The 05 has more front seat leg room, shoulder room and head room
- The 05 has fail-safe cooling
I can only think of 2 things that are better on the 03/04 Mach 1, it's brakes are probably a little bit better and I really like the Mach 1 wheels.
I score it 05 GT 29, 03-04 Mach 1 2. @ 29:2 I can't see why anyone would want and 03/04 Mach 1 over an 05 GT.
kirkyg
Founding Member
351CJ said:
You forgot heads. 4valve heads will breath more and have more potential then 3valve heads. I think ford did good to strike a balance in 3valve heads from lowest expense compared to power. But the 4 valve heads will never be out performed by the 3-valve heads alone. Also, we have to consider cam specs and the size of the ports...these heads might be nearly maxed from the factory vs the 4 valve heads have a good deal of porting room.
Just my thoughts.
kirkyg
kirkyg said:
No I didn't forget about the heads, I mentioned that the new 3V engine will perform the same or better than the Mach 1 engine and do it on 87 Octane, not 91. Don't forget that the 3V engine has VVT and a new 2 stage intake manifold. According to the Ford engineer I spoke with, the 3V has a better torque curve than the 4V Mach 1 motor. MM&FF claims they were able to do a rear wheel dyno of an 05 GT and they saw 295 RWHP. This is more than the Mach 1 dynos at (~280 RWHP)
The 3V engine also has a new, stronger bock casting.
The 3V engine is also about 80 lb lighter than the DOHC 4V engine. Those 4V heads are HUGE and heavy.
The 3V engine is over 2" narrower than the 4V engine. There is plenty of room on the sides of the 3V engine to work on things. The 4V will be much harder to work on due to less space.
Someone on BON published the flow #'s for the 3V heads. On the intake side they flow just about the same as the 4V heads.
If the 4V heads have room for porting, then the 3V probably have room too because if you look at the photos of the 3V & 4V heads the intake ports look VERY similar. You're making an assumption w/o getting the data to back it up.
In any case porting the heads do not mean anything to me because I will not be doing any porting to the heads. Porting buys you the most when you are going to be runnning higher RPM anyway and I don't plan on turning more than 6,000 RPM or whatever the factory rev limiter is set to.
But I really don't want to argue enlessly with you. I'll just conceede a 4V engine is always better, score it 28 to 3 in favor of the 05 GT.
It still won't change my decision.
blazinsteed
New Member
However your saying nothing of the sub frames, more aggresive spring rate, lower ride height, extra sway bar, toquicko gas pressurized shocks, different upper and lower and a few i can't remember. Larger brakes very underated motor (i would like to see a production gt with 295 hp) this extra 5-10 hp in the most will be negated by the weight. (all conjecture about hp numbers). I love my interior and although I haven't sat in the 05's I dare say they are very confy. I can't wait to get one on a skid pad to make a comparison. I hope they are all that they are cracked up to be (I will be adding an se to my mach). Right now the exterior isn't bold enough. But please don't sell the mach short.
Roger
Roger
blazinsteed said:However your saying nothing of the sub frames, more aggresive spring rate, lower ride height, extra sway bar, toquicko gas pressurized shocks, different upper and lower and a few i can't remember. Larger brakes very underated motor (i would like to see a production gt with 295 hp) this extra 5-10 hp in the most will be negated by the weight. (all conjecture about hp numbers). I love my interior and although I haven't sat in the 05's I dare say they are very confy. I can't wait to get one on a skid pad to make a comparison. I hope they are all that they are cracked up to be (I will be adding an se to my mach). Right now the exterior isn't bold enough. But please don't sell the mach short.
Roger
It sounds like I've offended you, I did not mean to do that.
Let me say it again:
IMHO the 2003/2003 Mustang Mach 1 is the 2nd best Mustang EVER sold as of today (the 03/04 SVT Cobra is the BEST Mustang ever sold as of today).
I would MUCH rather have an 03/04 Mach 1 than my POS 2001 GT. As I told you I came very close to buying a used 2003 Mach 1. The seats are much, better than the GT seats, the engine is a lot stronger than my GT, even with the mods I have and it really feels glued to the road much better than my GT. If I HAD TO buy a new Mustang this afternoon, I would get an Azure Blue Mach 1.
The Ford engineers have done a magnificent job getting 25 years of life out of the old Fox platform and coming up with Mustangs as good as the 03/04 Mach 1 and SVT Cobra.
But with that said, all indications are the '05 Mustang GT WILL be even better. It doesn't matter what shocks, springs, sway bars or whatever you put on the SN-95, you can't overcome a suspension that has an inherently bad design (front roll center too low, rear roll center too high, rear trailing links that bind, too much un-sprung weight in front due to not using coil overs) and a 57 / 43 F/R weight balance.
That's why I decided to wait for an 05 GT or SE.
One more thing on the 05. The engineer I spoke with told me how with the SN-95 they essentially started with a Fairmont and have had to band-aid the car for 25 years.
With the 05 GT they were doing a Mustang platform from the ground up. The SVT people had a lot of say in some of the things that were designed into the 05 GT that will make SVT's life alot easier when they develop the SVT versions of the new Mustang. He also said that he lost a bunch of his people to SVT. So some of the engineers that designed the body and stucture for the 2005 Stang are now doing the SVT versions. That is these SVT engineers already know the 05 Mustang inside and out which makes their jobs at SVT a lot easier and also will let them accomplish a lot more with future SVT and SE versions. He kind of said, "If you're impressed by the 05 GT, you ain't seen nothing yet!"
With the 05 GT they were doing a Mustang platform from the ground up. The SVT people had a lot of say in some of the things that were designed into the 05 GT that will make SVT's life alot easier when they develop the SVT versions of the new Mustang. He also said that he lost a bunch of his people to SVT. So some of the engineers that designed the body and stucture for the 2005 Stang are now doing the SVT versions. That is these SVT engineers already know the 05 Mustang inside and out which makes their jobs at SVT a lot easier and also will let them accomplish a lot more with future SVT and SE versions. He kind of said, "If you're impressed by the 05 GT, you ain't seen nothing yet!"
mattdee1
Active Member
Regarding 3V vs. 4V, having 2 intake valves is the important thing. Yes, it's important to have the exhaust gases flow freely as well, but the "2 exhaust valve effect" is not nearly as important for power as the "2 intake valve effect". Plus, like someone already said, the variable timing will further optimize the torque curve throughout the RPM range. To me, all of this amounts to a far superior engine in the 3V '05. The true test, however, will be on the streets.
While your question is necessarily speculative, I can tell you that my '04 Mach 1 is one of the most entertaining cars of the dozen (new) I've owned.
Yet, one can only assume that the '05 Panhard controlled rear axle will be an improvement over the current occasional semi-jitterbug setup. (Even the latter can be easily improved.)
The '05 will be a fine base for a shaker/Boss/"Cobra" version. It seems only to need some identity. Ford will sell a bunch and I'll be glad to see more Mustang cousins on the road.
Other than that, I wouldn't change a single part on my cheerful Mach...it all works well...
Yet, one can only assume that the '05 Panhard controlled rear axle will be an improvement over the current occasional semi-jitterbug setup. (Even the latter can be easily improved.)
The '05 will be a fine base for a shaker/Boss/"Cobra" version. It seems only to need some identity. Ford will sell a bunch and I'll be glad to see more Mustang cousins on the road.
Other than that, I wouldn't change a single part on my cheerful Mach...it all works well...
351CJ said:
I love you man.
You pretty much nailed it. A few minor observations:
It's important to consider that the improved weight distribution numbers were attained while still moving the fuel tank ahead of the rear axle, making them that much more impressive IMO. Since the fuel tank is located closer to the center of the car (and is much lower to the ground from the pic's I've seen) changes in fuel level won't have as much of an effect on handling. I don't know about you guys, but my car feels way different driving hard with a full tank compared to an empty tank.
As for blazinsteed's comment about subframes, I imagine you would have to buy every AM srtuctural component there is to bring an sn95 car up to the same stiffeness as an s197. In the end you'd have spent a ton of $, you'd probably end up with a car that's at least as heavy and you'd still have the shorter wheelbase/25 year old suspension geometry to deal with.
Which is better? a dohc 4v head or a sohc 3v head with vvt and 2 stage intake? It's really premature to tell at this point. The power output of the new 3v car does look favorable compared to the Mach, especially when considering that it runs on 87 octane. If you installed a set of 11:1 pistons in the 3v engine, recalibrated and ran 91 octane, where would it be?
If you installed a set of 11:1 pistons in the 3v engine, recalibrated and ran 91 octane, where would it be?[/QUOTE]
I'm hoping we'll find out in March 2005. Maybe a bit of a power boost?? Would be nice even though it looks like if there is a SE or at least a GT package, it have GT output from what we've heard.
I'm hoping we'll find out in March 2005. Maybe a bit of a power boost?? Would be nice even though it looks like if there is a SE or at least a GT package, it have GT output from what we've heard.
shatner saves said:
Now I'm all embarrassed.
Without turing this into a complete love-fest, you make a very good point about the gas tank being under the rear seat. Not only does it improve the vehicle dynamics, especially when the tank is full ( you don't have an extra 120 lb handing way out behind the rear axle which really screws up the indertial moment of the car under direction transision), it also vastly improves the safety of the 05 Stang should anyone rear end you.
Just look at some of the details in the 05, like the battery being mounted on the firewall to take another heavy object and get it inside the wheelbase.
I have heard rumors that Ford is working on a higher HP 91 octane version of the 3V engine. One of its applications is supposed to be in the next generation Lincoln LS and a possible new Lincoln luxury coupe ( Finally maybe we'll get a MK-VIII replacement).
At the 05 Mustang showing the Ford engineer told me that it looks like they will not be able to make 400HP out of the 4.6L 3V engine. However, he seemed to imply that they are not too far away from the 400 HP mark. I got the distinct impression that back in the engine development lab they are seeing well over 350 HP out of 4.6L 3V engines (normally aspirated).
I'm glad that you 03/04 Mach 1 owners love your Mach's. But all indications are that the 05 GT will be a better car and future Mustang SEs will be mind blowing.
kirkyg
Founding Member
351CJ said:No I didn't forget about the heads, I mentioned that the new 3V engine will perform the same or better than the Mach 1 engine and do it on 87 Octane, not 91. Don't forget that the 3V engine has VVT and a new 2 stage intake manifold. According to the Ford engineer I spoke with, the 3V has a better torque curve than the 4V Mach 1 motor. MM&FF claims they were able to do a rear wheel dyno of an 05 GT and they saw 295 RWHP. This is more than the Mach 1 dynos at (~280 RWHP)
The 3V engine also has a new, stronger bock casting.
The 3V engine is also about 80 lb lighter than the DOHC 4V engine. Those 4V heads are HUGE and heavy.
The 3V engine is over 2" narrower than the 4V engine. There is plenty of room on the sides of the 3V engine to work on things. The 4V will be much harder to work on due to less space.
Someone on BON published the flow #'s for the 3V heads. On the intake side they flow just about the same as the 4V heads.
If the 4V heads have room for porting, then the 3V probably have room too because if you look at the photos of the 3V & 4V heads the intake ports look VERY similar. You're making an assumption w/o getting the data to back it up.
In any case porting the heads do not mean anything to me because I will not be doing any porting to the heads. Porting buys you the most when you are going to be runnning higher RPM anyway and I don't plan on turning more than 6,000 RPM or whatever the factory rev limiter is set to.
But I really don't want to argue enlessly with you. I'll just conceede a 4V engine is always better, score it 28 to 3 in favor of the 05 GT.
Again the 3valve heads are great and the right choice by ford for a mass produced mustang GT...however they will not in the end have the same potential that 4 valve heads have. Thats it end of subject and if you disagree with that FACT then you are just wrong.
kirkyg
i4power
Founding Member
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