2010 Camaro

verbwiser said:

This thread is one of the things that brings me back to this forum.

If any of you bought the mustang, the 90% of the people who did, have, at minimum, a passing interest in the camaro along with the challenger.

I like the camaro, along with the challenger, the 370z and others. This is a good thread...if you like it, read it, if you don't, the pass on it. Most car guys like reading about cars....not just our cars.

You can make an argument for the topic being in another section, and a lot of moderators in some forums have gotten so sensitive about the whining of people complaining about topics being in the wrong section, that they end up cutting their forum into a pie with too many slices. Most people like reading interesting topics and they want to read it as easily as possible without having to click 30 different sections to do it.

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I find it very funny (or coincidental...) that you mention the 370Z.

Yesterday, I went to the Delaware Auto Show (don't waste your $10) with every psyched intention of sitting in a new Mustang GT and showing my wife how cool they were. We also sat in other cars, including the 2010 Camaro, which she hated. She definitely liked the Mustang better (Smart woman!).

Now, here's where things go haywire. I've been lightly shopping the Audi TT 2.0T Quattro along with the 370Z, but the Mustang GT is the one that was on top of my list. Being that I've never seen a 370Z close up, I had to check it out as we walked by the Nissan section. The styling is incredible. It's impossible to get an appreciation for the styling unless you're looking at the car from close-range. It's just an awesome design; the curves are nicely sculpted, and I couldn't help but to run my hand over the "wide-body" fenders. It looks like this car was designed by designers, not on some Auto-CAD program.

I sat in the 370Z and I loved the way it felt. While the cockpit was "intimate," it wasn't confining. I really liked it...A LOT. Now, I can't make up my mind between the 370Z or the Mustang GT.

I've seen a ton of comparisons and videos of the two duking it out, and the straight-line performance of both cars is nearly identical. Now, I question my motives behind my next vehicle. Do I want a straight-line bruiser which occasionally will be driven on back roads, or do I want a pure sports car that will perform all-around? I really want a car that "does it all," and I want the car that will provide the most entertainment in a car that I would be taking out on nice days. I'm not so sure which one would do it for me.

Anyway, I went to the auto show wanting a Mustang, and left wanting a 370Z. I'm really in a pinch, and it's become a toss-up.

Fast05 said:

This thread has wandered on and off topic time and time again. It may as well be titled "Talk about anything you want - and then some" :OT:

So back to the original topic, the 2010 camaro.

It's a nice car, kind of, except that it looks fat in person.
I wouldn't pay 40k for one. (nor have my credit run before I could test drive one)
It's too heavy to do anything spectacular outside of a straight line, so much for that fancy IRS.
It looks like it was designed on a computer.
The interior looks like a jazzed up version of my friend's Pontiac G5, and those gauges on the floor are funky, GM tried too hard.
Good luck trying to look out your windows to see what's going on around you.
The sales numbers are high because the fanboys haven't had a Camaro for 7 years and are willing to buy anything with the Camaro nameplate on it.
I wouldn't buy a car from a bankrupt company operating off my tax dollars.
Once the hype dies down (only built up because of those movies GM produced), so will the car.
A blown Mustang GT with track pack and a decent driver will outrun it in a straight line and in the curves every day with ease, and probably will have spent less than the poor sap who bought his marked up SS just to have one.
If you want a GM car that actually performs, go buy a Corvette.

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I want a GM car that performs. That's why I don't have one (Corvette aside).

Fast05 said:

The sales numbers are high because the fanboys haven't had a Camaro for 7 years and are willing to buy anything with the Camaro nameplate on it.

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And most of them dont seem to get that. I keep hearing about how there is so much demand for them but my local dealer has had 5 of them for almost a month now, no kidding. I also did a search on autotrader and the Camaro's are plentiful. I guess they just need to feel good about themselve's. And alot of these sold Camaro's are no doubt rental's.

MeanMike said:

And most of them dont seem to get that. I keep hearing about how there is so much demand for them but my local dealer has had 5 of them for almost a month now, no kidding. I also did a search on autotrader and the Camaro's are plentiful. I guess they just need to feel good about themselve's. And alot of these sold Camaro's are no doubt rental's.

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I'd agree. There were two of them on display at an auto show I went to yesterday from a local dealer. One was a black SS with silver stripes (looked nice...) and the other was a silver SS.

Nobody cares about the new Camaro; the automotive media does. They're doing everything they can to help save GM and the American auto industry. Funny that they didn't start until now.

This whole "Camaro hype" reminds me of the "Monica Lewinski incident;" NOBODY cared but the media.

Top Speed said:

I find it very funny (or coincidental...) that you mention the 370Z.

Yesterday, I went to the Delaware Auto Show (don't waste your $10) with every psyched intention of sitting in a new Mustang GT and showing my wife how cool they were. We also sat in other cars, including the 2010 Camaro, which she hated. She definitely liked the Mustang better (Smart woman!).

Now, here's where things go haywire. I've been lightly shopping the Audi TT 2.0T Quattro along with the 370Z, but the Mustang GT is the one that was on top of my list. Being that I've never seen a 370Z close up, I had to check it out as we walked by the Nissan section. The styling is incredible. It's impossible to get an appreciation for the styling unless you're looking at the car from close-range. It's just an awesome design; the curves are nicely sculpted, and I couldn't help but to run my hand over the "wide-body" fenders. It looks like this car was designed by designers, not on some Auto-CAD program.

I sat in the 370Z and I loved the way it felt. While the cockpit was "intimate," it wasn't confining. I really liked it...A LOT. Now, I can't make up my mind between the 370Z or the Mustang GT.

I've seen a ton of comparisons and videos of the two duking it out, and the straight-line performance of both cars is nearly identical. Now, I question my motives behind my next vehicle. Do I want a straight-line bruiser which occasionally will be driven on back roads, or do I want a pure sports car that will perform all-around? I really want a car that "does it all," and I want the car that will provide the most entertainment in a car that I would be taking out on nice days. I'm not so sure which one would do it for me.

Anyway, I went to the auto show wanting a Mustang, and left wanting a 370Z. I'm really in a pinch, and it's become a toss-up.

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Here's the deal with me.......

Like you, the 370Z is drop dead sexy. Of the cars I looked at, it is the one that I would most apt buy IF money wasn't a factor.

I make a good living and I don't hurt for money, however, I am not rolling around filthy rich. And because of that, along with my being inherently frugal, I shop for cars that give me bang.for.the.buck. I want value. If I could have bought a 370Z for around 26,000 dollars, then that's the car I'd be driving today.

I like it better than the mustang....but how much is that worth? From the things I had read and the research I had done, IF memory serves me correct, the 370Z is a better car, but it rode rougher and was harder to mod, along with being more expensive. In my mind, I didn't want more expensive, and I didn't want something that was hard to mod, and I certainly didn't want a harsh ride.

When I look for value for my dollar, the two things that really jumped out for me were the Hyundai and Mustang.

The camaro was certainly a car that I was looking hard at, but (and this is just my opinion) you would have to be an idiot to pay the kind of money they are demanding for those cars. The dealership I had spoken to was wanting 3,000 above sticker for a camaro....insane. Even shopping around, you were lucky to find one in the 35,000 price range.

Looks are subjective on a car. I didn't love the looks of the camaro, but I did like it well enough IF the car had been priced inline with what I felt was a good value. There were things I hated about the camaro...hard lines...ugliest guages I have ever seen in a car......tall sides....pig heavy.....but it does have 400 plus horsepower.....that is a huge selling point to me.

When the GTO's came out, I was disgusted on how dog ass ugly those things were. Pig fat......ugly....just ruined a good motor by putting in that slop mobile. I think that they did better this time around with the camaro. It's still got the complaints that I had with the GTO, but they got it a helluva lot more right this time than they did the first time.

GM really does piss me off. I've had enough of their $hittty cars through the years that they ought to give me vette for the misery they put me through. Gov't bailout sucking bastards....rate jacking dealers...GM has done everything they could to burn anyone who could possibly love their company.

But anyhow.......for the money, I don't know how anyone could buy a camaro over a 370Z. But then again, it might just come down to looks and looks are subjective.

verbwiser said:

Here's the deal with me.......

Like you, the 370Z is drop dead sexy. Of the cars I looked at, it is the one that I would most apt buy IF money wasn't a factor.

I make a good living and I don't hurt for money, however, I am not rolling around filthy rich. And because of that, along with my being inherently frugal, I shop for cars that give me bang.for.the.buck. I want value. If I could have bought a 370Z for around 26,000 dollars, then that's the car I'd be driving today.

I like it better than the mustang....but how much is that worth? From the things I had read and the research I had done, IF memory serves me correct, the 370Z is a better car, but it rode rougher and was harder to mod, along with being more expensive. In my mind, I didn't want more expensive, and I didn't want something that was hard to mod, and I certainly didn't want a harsh ride.

When I look for value for my dollar, the two things that really jumped out for me were the Hyundai and Mustang.

The camaro was certainly a car that I was looking hard at, but (and this is just my opinion) you would have to be an idiot to pay the kind of money they are demanding for those cars. The dealership I had spoken to was wanting 3,000 above sticker for a camaro....insane. Even shopping around, you were lucky to find one in the 35,000 price range.

Looks are subjective on a car. I didn't love the looks of the camaro, but I did like it well enough IF the car had been priced inline with what I felt was a good value. There were things I hated about the camaro...hard lines...ugliest guages I have ever seen in a car......tall sides....pig heavy.....but it does have 400 plus horsepower.....that is a huge selling point to me.

When the GTO's came out, I was disgusted on how dog ass ugly those things were. Pig fat......ugly....just ruined a good motor by putting in that slop mobile. I think that they did better this time around with the camaro. It's still got the complaints that I had with the GTO, but they got it a helluva lot more right this time than they did the first time.

GM really does piss me off. I've had enough of their $hittty cars through the years that they ought to give me vette for the misery they put me through. Gov't bailout sucking bastards....rate jacking dealers...GM has done everything they could to burn anyone who could possibly love their company.

But anyhow.......for the money, I don't know how anyone could buy a camaro over a 370Z. But then again, it might just come down to looks and looks are subjective.

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Yes, I have read that the 370Z isn't real easy to modify, and that is a concern, but it's a slight one (for me). I guess I'm after the "ultimate driving experience" that I can afford. I have a 1994 Camaro that I've poured dollars upon dollars into, and I just don't want another modified car. I want something that I can just get in, drive, get performance I can be happy with, and keep a warranty. A few basic bolt-ons aside (exhaust, cold air intake, tune), I don't plan on doing any mods. That's one of the main reasons I'm after a Track Pack Mustang; no suspension mods will be needed. I'm also after a Roushcharger, which, again, would be covered under a 3yr/36k and go-fast mods would not be needed.

The other car that I'm now looking hard at is the 370Z SPORT model. I don't mind that the ride will be a bit stiff, as it won't be a daily driver, but in the grand scheme of things, I have a daily driver that rides so stiff, I swear I'm sitting on a milk crate (2005 STi).

On the 2.5 hour drive home to WV today from my parents' house, my wife and I talked about which one I would probably be happier with, and when I think about it, the Mustang has a tough business case to propose.

I know that with a Track Pack a Mustang GT will handle. I've driven a standard GT and it didn't handle all that poorly. I also know that it's nearly dead-even in straight-line performance with a 370Z, so the acceleration isn't an issue. The cheaper price, however, certainly makes the Mustang GT appealing in every sense of the word. I drove the Mustang GT, and it is undoubtedly one of the best cars I've ever driven, and I've driven A LOT of cars. While it's not the fastest car or the best-handling car I've ever driven, it's just a damned nice car.

Then there's the 370Z. It's small, it handles, and it accelerates like a V8. Even if it doesn't put out as much torque as my STi, it will feel like it does, being a V6. The V6 will also probably sound more appealing than the Flat-4 in my STi, especially when singing near the redline. IMO, I believe the Z is more notorious for its handling abilities than its acceleration. This is appealing, because I like to do more than drive in a straight line. Regardless how good a Mustang GT will be in the corners with a Track Pack, I'm so inclined to believe that the smaller and wider Z will run away from it.

I have a car with a 4 cylinder, and I have one with a V8. A V6 is right smack in the middle. Maybe in the grand scheme of things, what I'm looking for is a combination of both, the handling of a sports car and the grunt of a powerful engine for those straight-line "stunts." I've forever been on the hunt for a pure driving experience, and I've compromised on both ends of the spectrum; the STi with its powerful 4 cylinder that lacks the "grunt" of a higher displacement engine, and a V8 that can't turn a corner.

Right now, when I want to drive, I take the STi if I want a "driving experience," but if I just want to sit behind the wheel of a sledgehammer on the highway, I take the Camaro. While I wouldn't even begin to refer to the 370Z as a "sledgehammer," I would love to have a car that does everything extremely well. I want a sports car I can take to the "Tail of the Dragon" and enjoy the trip. I've been to the "Tail" in the STi, and wow, did the car shine, but it just lacks the feeling of being in a sports car.

So let's say I wound up in a 370Z. It doesn't mean I like the new Mustang GT any less, it just means that maybe it wasn't the right car this time around. Of course, I would still like the 370Z as much if I bought the Mustang. It's just such a tough decision that I don't know what to do.

Tough call Top Speed. I went through the decision process myself.

some things to think about:

How much more is the 370Z going to be over the mustang? I would bet, with some negotiating and shopping, that you could buy the mustang GT, with the track pack, out the door with taxes included, for UNDER 30,000. That's a pretty sweet deal. I would guess that the 370Z you want is going to be, at least, five grand more than that.

MY THOUGHTS........I would grab the GT and put the difference into a super charger. 400 plus horsepower...still a good looking car that drives nice and handles great. You'd have a car that would make a 370Z cry and a camaro beg for mercy.

Now, if you are wanting something that will make the head turns, then the 370Z is the obvious choice. I think it is one of the best looking cars out there. The only thing I hate about the 370Z is that half the guys driving them look like bottle water drinking abercrombie boys.

Top Speed said:

So let's say I wound up in a 370Z. It doesn't mean I like the new Mustang GT any less, it just means that maybe it wasn't the right car this time around. Of course, I would still like the 370Z as much if I bought the Mustang. It's just such a tough decision that I don't know what to do.

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Decisions, decisions! They're both great cars, and each has it's advantage over the other. The Mustang would probably be easier to mod, has a back seat, and is cheaper. The Z is just as good looking IMO and accelerates just as quick and can turn on a dime. My step dad is considering buying a 370Z in the next few months so he and my mom have a "weekend car" to drive around in. You know I'm all for it...they can drive it on the weekend and I'll drive it during the week

verbwiser said:

Tough call Top Speed. I went through the decision process myself.

some things to think about:

How much more is the 370Z going to be over the mustang? I would bet, with some negotiating and shopping, that you could buy the mustang GT, with the track pack, out the door with taxes included, for UNDER 30,000. That's a pretty sweet deal. I would guess that the 370Z you want is going to be, at least, five grand more than that.

MY THOUGHTS........I would grab the GT and put the difference into a super charger. 400 plus horsepower...still a good looking car that drives nice and handles great. You'd have a car that would make a 370Z cry and a camaro beg for mercy.

Now, if you are wanting something that will make the head turns, then the 370Z is the obvious choice. I think it is one of the best looking cars out there. The only thing I hate about the 370Z is that half the guys driving them look like bottle water drinking abercrombie boys.

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Certainly all good points.

It's funny that I continuously see comparisons between the two, especially since they're nothing alike. I don't know why they're considered "competition" to the Mustang. It's apples to oranges. These cars have absolutely NOTHING in common, save for acceleration figures. If anything, the 370Z should be compared with cars like the base model Porsche Cayman.

The toughest part in all of this is that either way, I come out a winner, but at the same time, a loser. No matter which one I chose in the end, I'd kick myself for not getting the other.

SS02 said:

A loaded 2ss runs 34k...less than a track pak equipped Mustang GT....Out performs it also. Only the Camaros that are on lots and not preordered are marked up...um do you remeber the 05 GTs...samething.

To discuss the straight line talk, I believe the Camaro beat the Nismo 370Z around the nurbergrind...which in fact the Nismo handles and outperforms the Mustang GT, which means you think the Mustang is "just" a straight line performer and bad in corners if the Camaro is.

Also I believe the Blown Ford Racing mustang GT only hits 13.20s....so I guess the L99 Automatic Camaro will suffice in that race. Id like to know the total cost of a Blown GT with Track pak....tuning and install..Albeit over 42k for that setup.

Love the mustang...and I believe when I started this thread I said it was to discuss the new and current information regarding the new Camaro, alot of ppl like it, and alot of them dont. It seems its a pretty good topic of conversation though, considering its a 12 page thread...and I think thats all the admins care about

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The only thing a Camaro does over a Mustang is out-accelerate it. Other than that, it's an overrated, fat, disgusting, pig of a car. As for the fat pig of a Camaro beating a true sports car like a 370Z around the 'Ring, show me the proof.

SS02 said:

A loaded 2ss runs 34k...less than a track pak equipped Mustang GT....Out performs it also. Only the Camaros that are on lots and not preordered are marked up...um do you remeber the 05 GTs...samething.

To discuss the straight line talk, I believe the Camaro beat the Nismo 370Z around the nurbergrind...which in fact the Nismo handles and outperforms the Mustang GT, which means you think the Mustang is "just" a straight line performer and bad in corners if the Camaro is.

Also I believe the Blown Ford Racing mustang GT only hits 13.20s....so I guess the L99 Automatic Camaro will suffice in that race. Id like to know the total cost of a Blown GT with Track pak....tuning and install..Albeit over 42k for that setup.

Love the mustang...and I believe when I started this thread I said it was to discuss the new and current information regarding the new Camaro, alot of ppl like it, and alot of them dont. It seems its a pretty good topic of conversation though, considering its a 12 page thread...and I think thats all the admins care about

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I'll address each point on its own...

34k for a loaded SS, if you can actually find one at that price. And, FWIW I bought my 05 GT off the lot in January of 05 (3 months after release) for STICKER PRICE.

We already know the Mustang outperforms the Camaro as soon as the track makes a turn so your bringing the Z into the argument makes no sense, you're comparing 2 different cars. Sorry the SS is a pig at the track.

The same mag that runs a track pack GT at 13.5 and then runs a blown GT at 13.2 makes no sense at all. Do we know that track conditions were similar? My 05 ran 12.9 with less than 400 HP. So either bad driver or bad track conditions.

I picked up my loaded GT with 3.73s and all the goodies that come along with the 19" wheels for 31K. Try to get a Camaro for that price. Now if I put a supercharger on it I'd still have ended up spending less than a marked up SS

SS02 said:

A loaded 2ss runs 34k...less than a track pak equipped Mustang GT....Out performs it also. Only the Camaros that are on lots and not preordered are marked up...um do you remeber the 05 GTs...samething.

To discuss the straight line talk, I believe the Camaro beat the Nismo 370Z around the nurbergrind...which in fact the Nismo handles and outperforms the Mustang GT, which means you think the Mustang is "just" a straight line performer and bad in corners if the Camaro is.

Also I believe the Blown Ford Racing mustang GT only hits 13.20s....so I guess the L99 Automatic Camaro will suffice in that race. Id like to know the total cost of a Blown GT with Track pak....tuning and install..Albeit over 42k for that setup.

Love the mustang...and I believe when I started this thread I said it was to discuss the new and current information regarding the new Camaro, alot of ppl like it, and alot of them dont. It seems its a pretty good topic of conversation though, considering its a 12 page thread...and I think thats all the admins care about

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A car should sell for whatever price it sells for and you are right, the initial release of the 05 GT's did sell for a higher price than sticker. The issue here is, GM needed the tax payers to come in and give them the means to bring the car to market and, at best, leaves a very bad taste in the mouth of the consumer. The last thing that GM needed was the appearance of price gouging the consumer who is helping them.

As far as the speed of the car, 400 plus horsepower does speak for itself.

Am curious though, and since you own one, from the posts I've seen, which haven't been a lot, it doesn't seem like the everyday driver is getting nothing like the times posted in the quarter mile that the magazines are reporting on average. Again, in limited reading, it seems like the trap speed times are pretty low, which makes me think this isn't driver error. But it could be driver error, I guess. Too small of sample size, or are the times much better than that what I've seen if I looked harder?

Top Speed said:

The only thing a Camaro does over a Mustang is out-accelerate it. Other than that, it's an overrated, fat, disgusting, pig of a car. As for the fat pig of a Camaro beating a true sports car like a 370Z around the 'Ring, show me the proof.

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If it did in fact beat the Z I'm sure none of the suspension and tires were stock. Not happening stock for stock.

verbwiser said:

A car should sell for whatever price it sells for and you are right, the initial release of the 05 GT's did sell for a higher price than sticker. The issue here is, GM needed the tax payers to come in and give them the means to bring the car to market and, at best, leaves a very bad taste in the mouth of the consumer. The last thing that GM needed was the appearance of price gouging the consumer who is helping them.

As far as the speed of the car, 400 plus horsepower does speak for itself.

Am curious though, and since you own one, from the posts I've seen, which haven't been a lot, it doesn't seem like the everyday driver is getting nothing like the times posted in the quarter mile that the magazines are reporting on average. Again, in limited reading, it seems like the trap speed times are pretty low, which makes me think this isn't driver error. But it could be driver error, I guess. Too small of sample size, or are the times much better than that what I've seen if I looked harder?

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Agreed, it should leave a bad taste in anyone's mouth that they took billions and billions of our tax payer dollars and then proceed to mark up cars just to get us where it counts a little bit more.

400 HP is nice. 4000lbs is not.

The average driver out there is not that great at racing, that's why you don't see your average Joe at the track blasting off low 13s in these cars, just like you don't see all the Joes running 13.5s in the Mustang. Sad though, that the 5th gen Camaro is packing a nice 100 HP more than the 4th gen and is basically putting down the same straight line numbers.

Fast05 said:

If it did in fact beat the Z I'm sure none of the suspension and tires were stock. Not happening stock for stock.

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Ok, I did find some info on times set at the Nurburgring, and the 2003 350Z, which had 28x hp ran it in 8:26 to the Camaro SS's 8:22. Funny how the Camaro has 140x more hp, yet only managed to beat the 350Z by 4 seconds around the 'Ring. Now that the Z has 50 more hp and has lost 100 lbs of weight, plus has been shortened and widened, it won't even be close.

Top Speed said:

Ok, I did find some info on times set at the Nurburgring, and the 2003 350Z, which had 28x hp ran it in 8:26 to the Camaro SS's 8:22. Funny how the Camaro has 140x more hp, yet only managed to beat the 350Z by 4 seconds around the 'Ring. Now that the Z has 50 more hp and has lost 100 lbs of weight, plus has been shortened and widened, it won't even be close.

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Oh I see....so we're comparing a new car to a 6 year old car? Didn't the 03 Cobras run a 13.1 or so in the 1/4 mile? You know what that means.....the new SS is only as fast as a 6 year old Mustang

Fast05 said:

Oh I see....so we're comparing a new car to a 6 year old car? Didn't the 03 Cobras run a 13.1 or so in the 1/4 mile? You know what that means.....the new SS is only as fast as a 6 year old Mustang

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Well, of course!

Okay, okay, in GM's defense, in 1982, the Camaro was voted the best handling American car; yes, better than even their own Corvette. The IROC-Z also posted 0.87-0.89g on the skidpad, too! And then there was the 1LE, which is pretty much the "Grand Poo-bah" of Camaros when it comes to handling. They were around from 1991-2002.

SS02 said:

see. .....what would we do without this thread

Actually I edited my post....Im sorry but the NIssan 370Z hasnt ran the Nurburgring yet........which is why Nissan is making a 71k dollar Nurburgring 370Z, from what Ive heard the current 370Z has overheating issues on the course...also Porche has called BS on nissans claims of track times at the nurburgring...which Nissan (CANT) confirm anyway, the times were from the laguna seca track...which the Camaro ran (105.7 sec) to the Nismo 370zs (106.4 sec )...check that out all you want.

If you havent noticed Ford wont run the Mustang GT on the Nurburgring...or any other reputable course..wonder why ? Say what you want about the Camaro, I still have good opinion about it...and to me..thats all that matters, not a few guys who obvisouly hate it...which means nothing honestly, thats whats great about the automotive world....we all love to hate each others vehicles

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Ford won't run the Mustang GT on the Nurburgring because they're scared of Hyundai?

So, you've heard the 370Z has overheating issues. I haven't heard any such thing, and I've been "researching" the 370Z since sitting in one on Saturday. Where did you "hear" this?

Do you think anyone would really buy a $71,000 370Z? I sure don't. Isn't it possible that this "$71,000 370Z" is going to be some type of "development mule?" Nissan has just released the Nismo 370Z, a $40,000 car, and people are "crying foul." What are they going to call this one, the "Super-Nismo?"