30 or 36 injectors

Gearbanger 101 said:

I like your combo, except for the 65mm Throttle body. With all those deep breathing parts and the added displacement, you're going to be leaving some power on the table with that unit. I'd look into something in the 70-75mm range if it were me.

Otherwise, I agree with Adam. The 36's will provide you with more of a comfortable "working" zone and can be easily tuned for a N/A application.

Click to expand...

I don't think he'd be picking up that much with a bigger TB. Guys make more than 400hp all the time with the 65mm TB. Just not worth the 200+ bucks IMO

Should have kept the 42's, don't know why you'd sell them? Anyhow, the 30's will be ok since your combo isn't too aggressive. My 30's are near maxed out up top on my 347 but mine is a tad more wilder

And yes, the 75mm tb will show gains over the too small 65mm. Seen that before.

36's if you want to not change them again. BTW, a bigger TB will show improvements, and of course it's worth the money. Better acceleration, more airflow, better throttle response, I'd say to go with as big as your intake allows.

Killercanary is running at 82% duty cycle with 24 lb injectors with 356rwhp 331.

30's are fine, but if you are getting a tune more would be just fine.

FRPP no longer makes 36 lb injectors.

I have yet to seen any gains from a 65-70-75mm TB. Please show me some proof of this as I have looked VERY MUCH into this.

Getting rid of the restrictive elbow is the main deal, not the throttle body.

I don't have hard numbers on this, but I have researched it and asked specific questions to very reputable people, and the consensus is BIGGER IS BETTER when it comes to induction. Jay Allen and Joel, just to name two guys who KNOW what they're doing and make a living off of this.

Again, I would like to see proof.

Those guys are all about straightline. Just check out there site for this. They could care less about tip-in. I never said that it would hurt, but in more cases than not, it does not help.

If I was building a drag car, or something that I just wanted to perform for pure straight performance, I would make it as large as the intake could go.

Some intakes can take a larger size throttle body more than the others. Examples are the Cobra intake can only seat a 75mm TB, without some extra material added. Some like the TFS-R, and those of the like can take much larger.

I see the sn-95 guys gaining from fox TB set-up, not the throttle body itself.

Here is what I would love to see Paul do with his 331.


- Port his upper intake to whatever he wants with the 75mm TB.
- Next, dyno after he does the fox set-up swap but with the 65mm TB.
- Then, put on the 75mm TB with no porting needed (already done earlier)

That would show a true need for a bigger throttle body.

Otherwise, I see gains from a stock throttle body to a aftermarket throttle body.

Many think that the MM size is the determiner of power. There is a much bigger difference between a 60mm (stock) and 65mm (Accufab), than a 65mm (Accufab) compared to a 70mm (Accufab). The butterflies, port finish, and exterior screws. Aftermarket throttle bodies are much less restrictive.

The Holley Systemax intake necks down to 65mm a couple inches from where the throttle body bolts on. So how can you gain with a 75+mm TB? You would have to port INTO the intake to see a gain, if it was needed.

I have seen throttle body gains, from stock to aftermarket, gain some decent numbers on the dyno, but not perform at the track.

A stock ls1 throttle body is 71.5mm. Many port them to 75mm when they start pushing 400+ rwhp, and I have seen them use them up to 500 rwhp. Now, when they swap to an aftermarket throttle body that has smoother ports, better design, less blade area, then they pick up. Because it is a good aftermarket piece.

Now, if adding boost, the tip-in effect becomes greater because air is being pushed in, even at part-throttle, so the throttle becomes quite touchy.

Outlaw5.0 has stated on Hardcore and *******, a 65mm throttle body is good for 400 hp.

Do not pick the throttle body based on the intake "hole" or the cubic inch. Base it off the CFM rating of your engine. There is a simple formula for this...

Displacement * RPM * VE / (1728*2) = Volumetric flow of the engine in CFM, so get on the dyno

65mm - 2.56 inches
70mm - 2.76 inches
75mm - 2.95 inches
90mm - 3.54 inches

Now, many can remove the "accelarator pump" function out of the EEC so the car does not show a little bit of shutter at WOT, but who wants to tune out an inefficiency, when the larger throttle body is not needed.

I notice that there are a few stangers out there with the notion that a bigger throttle body has no effect on engine performance or drivability and is needed to get the correct amount of air in the engine. I attend to show this by thought that this is not the case all the time. These numbers are accurate ballpark figures. Not exact.

At 6,000 rpm a 347 can flow 600cfm. That is with NO restriction. Any 347 or similar has a ton of restriction. That cfm rating does not include a heads, cam package on it. The cam only is open for little amounts of time, commonly referred to as the duration of a cam. So the cfm rating of the engine is further cut.

Stangers are routinely sticking on throttle bodies that flow two to two and half times greater than their engine sees at its peak.

I have to ask...why?

If you've got a throttle body that delivers 100% of the peak air requirements of your engine when the throttle plate is fully open, you have control of the air throughout 100% of the throttle position range. If you go to an oversized TB that delivers 100% of the air that your engine can consume while the throttle plate is only 60% open, you have given up usable throttle-control range for no advantage.

Guys that are constantly defending the oversized throttle bodies are only talking about wide open performance (WOT). What about the 99% of the time that we cruise around at part throttle?

With a bigger blade like on a 75mm throttle body, the throttle modulation becomes more difficult. The gas pedal modulation becomes touchier. The reason why is do to the fact with the larger surface area of a 75mm blade compared to a 65mm blade, you get more air that passes thru with less pedal effort. This causes the gas to be less manageable and many post of bucking problems do to the very problem described above.

From Tom Moss, do to the nature of velocity the air charge moves faster (for each degree of TB blade movement) when using a smaller TB and that fills the cylinder better at lower rpms. Velocity is effected for part throttle performance as well.

Again, look somewhere else for a restriction, not an oversized throttle body.

An Accufab 65mm throttle body flows more than enough for a 347 stroker with 664cfm continuously, while the 347 would see 600cfm if it had no heads, cam, or intake on it, which of course is impossible.

Enthusiasts need to quit ignoring the facts.

Read an article from the top throttle body maker them self and let them tell the tale:

THE AIR PUMP UNDER YOUR HOOD

By George Klass – Accufab Designer/Tech

What size throttle body or carburetor do I need?

Good question but the real question should be “how many cubic feet per minute (CFM) of air will my engine require?”
An engine is an air pump. Based on the size of the engine (displacement) and how fast it will be spinning (RPM), it will pump out a certain amount of air. Works just like an air compressor. Of course, there are many variables to CFM requirements, such as cylinder head flow capabilities, intake and exhaust manifold flow capabilities, etc., but the basic engine block will pump a certain amount of air over a specified period of time, measured in cubic feet of air per minute.

If the engine is to be carbureted, it should be a relatively easy decision to pick out the correct sized carburetor. Carburetors are defined by CFM. If your engine calls for (or pumps out) about 664 CFM, the correct choice is probably a 650 CFM carburetor. Unfortunately, throttle bodies are rarely defined by CFM ratings. Instead, most throttle body manufacturers define their throttle bodies by the inside diameter of the unit, measured at or around the throttle blade, and usually in Millimeters (MM). Unless you have a direct correlation between the measurement in MM and the related CFM of that particular unit, the selection is going to be based on “best guess”.

And to further complicate the “guessing” process, all throttle bodies of the same dimension, do not have the same CFM rating. You might think that Brand A’s 75 MM throttle body would flow the same as Brand B’s 75 MM throttle body. Such is not the case, because all throttle bodies have a “major obstruction” in the middle of the air path, namely a throttle blade and shaft. How well the air flows over and under this obstruction will define the CFM a specific throttle body will flow. A big fat shaft with the attachment screws for the blade sticking up into the air stream will impact the CFM of that throttle body.

While most enthusiasts with EFI engines continue to purchase throttle bodies based on Millimeter size, caring little about the actual CFM ratings, the carb guys purchase carburetors based on CFM ratings, caring little about the size of the throttle plates. Score one for the carb guys.

But, back to the original question, “how much CFM do I need”?

Below is a chart with the CFM requirements, based on displacement (in cubic inches) and RPM. This chart will work for any piston engine with any number of cylinders. After you have determined the CFM for your specific engine combination, you can then choose the corresponding throttle body or carburetor size to best fit that combination.

DISPLACEMENT………….6000 RPM……….6500 RPM……….7000 RPM
280………..…………………486………………..527………………..567
290……..……………………503………………..545………………..587
300………..…………………521………………..564………………..608
310……..……………………538………………..583………………..628
320……..……………………556………………..602………………..648
330………..…………………573………………..621………………..668
340……………..……………590………………..639………………..689
350……..……………………608………….…….658………………..709
360………………..…………625………………..677………………..729
370………………..…………642………………..696………………..749
380………………..…………660………………..715………………..770
390………………..…………677………………..734………………..790
400………………..…………694………………..752………………..810
410………………..…………712………………..771………………..830
420………………..…………729………………..771………………..830
430………………..…………747………………..809………………..871

This chart should give you a general idea of the amount of air your combination will pump. Engines will pump less air because of the restrictions in the cylinder head or intake manifold design or valve lift, or all three. But, the chart still gives you a ball park starting point.

One other thing to know. A carburetor requires air speeding over the venturi to draw the gasoline into the mixture. Using too large a carburetor (high CFM rating) will usually cause derogatory performance in the lower or midrange. This is because the lower air velocity is inefficient in mixing the gasoline with the air. In general, and particularly for street use, a slightly smaller carb (less CFM) will give better overall performance.

With an EFI system, this is usually not a problem. The throttle body only controls air flow. A computer monitors the gasoline supply and the mixing of gasoline and air takes place inside the intake port, and not inside the carburetor. Using an oversize throttle body is not nearly as detrimental to low and midrange performance as is using an oversize carburetor.

So, to find the CFM ratings of a carburetor, all you need to do is to look in any catalog from Holley, Edelbrock, Barry Grant, etc. That’s how the carburetors are listed. To find the CFM ratings for a throttle body is going to be more difficult, unless you happen to choose an Accufab throttle body.

Because the Accufab throttle bodies are designed to “race engine specs”, the flow ratings are going to be greater than most of the other aftermarket throttle body designs, so don’t automatically expect a “75 MM Brand B” throttle body to flow as much as an Accufab 75 MM unit.”

Top reasons why mythical ‘gains’ are seen by larger throttle bodies:

1. The owner did not port match the intake or have an intake that had a same or larger diameter intake opening. The owner then port matched the inlet or switched with a different intake.

2. The throttle body was swapped after a new or rebuilt engine had broken-in. It is common knowledge that a engine will loosen up and gain clearance tolerances which reduces friction. For example, if a stanger had a 70mm throttle body on a freshly rebuilt 331 and dynoed 350rwhp with 500 miles and at 7,000 miles swapped to a 75mm throttle body and gained 8hp ‘across the board’. You may want to think about engine break-in and tolerances of an engine to be the culprit not the larger throttle body.

Car and Driver do long term testing on cars/trucks as well as others. They do baseline runs when new and do more performance testing at 50,000 miles. Every single time the 50,000 mile period shows to much noticeable quicker to 60mph and ¼ mile times. Be careful on a new engine thinking the throttle body gave you the gain when it was an extended period between a dyno or track session.

3. Another thing I have seen is when there are dyno graphs that show gains ‘across the board.’ This simply can not happen at wide open throttle if you take this example: Take a 302 engine with a 65mm throttle body and you add a 75mm throttle body. Let’s say it shows a gain from 2,000 rpm – 6,000 rpm. That would imply that the 65mm throttle body could not flow enough at 2,000 rpm which is guaranteed not to be true. So what is the culprit? Check when the dyno was done compared to the new dyno? What was the mileage? Temperatures? Different dynos? Were there any other changes along this timeline or tuning? Then you get your answer. You will not see gains ‘across the board’ when you are dealing with N/A 302’s or even strokers under 350 cubic inch. The 65mm throttle bodies flow enough. You may see gains in the top half of the rpm range if you have some healthy parts on a stroked engine.

4. It is done inefficiently by using our own seat of the pants. Many that make the unnecessary swap think since the gas is touchier assume they have gained power by ‘feel.’

5. Much ‘testing’ is done at the track and many post how X stanger gained X mph with just a throttle body change. So again ask this stanger was the track the same? Headwind/Tailwind the same? Same shifting speed? Same 60ft time? Same rpm shift? Same day? Same or similar temperatures? This may seem tedious but many factors remain. A dyno will help take care of some of the ‘questions’ by taking out some other parameters that change.

In short, if there is information given about a gain look for the simple things like: Were there any other changes to the combo? Was the intake port-matched? Was the engine new or freshly rebuilt recently? Were the dynos the same? Was the temperatures/humidity the same?

The most accurate way to see if a larger throttle body gives you a gain is to do a back-to-back dyno test from one throttle body to the next. That way you have same mileage, same temperature, same dyno, same supporting parts, and same parameters in general. But be wary of promotional dyno test for a company or brand.

There can be instances were gains can be seen, on track cars that see HIGH rpm and have larger cubic inches that us 5.0L stangers usually see. And the gains will be up top in the higher rpm.

Throttle Body CFM Flow Ratings:

Stock 5.0L 60 MM - 526 CFM
SVO 65 MM - 540 CFM

Accufab:

65 MM - 664 CFM
70 MM - 787 CFM
70 MM - 896 CFM (Race version)
75 MM - 924 CFM
75 MM - 1045 CFM (Race version)
80 MM - 1142 CFM
85 MM - 1322 CFM
90 MM - 1369 CFM
105 MM - 1550 CFM

Holley:

65 MM - 750 CFM*
70 MM - 790 CFM*
75 MM - 840 CFM*
80 MM - 892 CFM*

*Information given by Tech Rep.

BBK:

70 MM - 726 CFM

Edelbrock, Ford Racing and Professional Products have no cfm information after calls/emails.

Information to keep in mind when picking out a throttle body for your application:

A 300 cubic inch engine (302 c.i.) flows 521 cfm (ballpark) at 6,000 rpm.
A 330 cubic inch engine (331 c.i.) flows 573 cfm (ballpark) at 6,000 rpm.
A 350 cubic inch engine (347 c.i.) flows 600 cfm (ballpark) at 6,000 rpm.

With the above information from Accufab's website, you can see that the aftermarket throttle bodies offered flow much more than your engine can breath (302-347). Those cfm ratings are even given with NO restrictions and of course our engines all have restrictions, via our heads, cam, intake packaging. An actual running engine flows somewhere in the neighborhood of 200-400 cfm with some rough math. The aftermarket throttle bodies flow two times this amount.

In short, be careful on picking 'too big' of a throttle body for your car. An application with boost (forcing air) allows for you to efficiently select a bigger throttle body, although N/A engines do not.

Throttle Body 101 from Accufab article: http://www.accufabracing.com/article 2.htm

Now for some real world examples from reliable sources:

On the subject of the mild 302, I went from the stock 60mm to 65mm, made a good difference, from 65mm-70mm no difference, from 70mm-75mm no difference either. On a 347, it picked up all the way up to the 75mm where we stopped. - Outlaw5.0

Remember, this was on HC50. A "mild" combination to them, is like our AFR 185's to "us."

You have to keep the intent of the car in mind. A throttle body is obviously controlled with a linkage, the older fox stuff with the linear action of a lever and ball-stud, the sn-95 stuff with a cam, and of course the newest stuff is all Electronic, referred to and ETB. All of these have a "curve" that is built in that controls a item called "tip-in"; this is the amount of open area the throttle sees compared the the amount of throttle angle or cable travel. A larger bore diameter creates a larger open area for any given throttle angle. On a street driven car, this "tip-in" can make the car a little touchy with the larger throttle bodies like may 75mm and up. Some of this will depend on the driver and his/her dislikes. Jay Allen is correct, a throttle body that may be considered too large will not hurt performance, but it could affect the street driveability of a car for more picky drivers because the initial opening amount (measured in degrees of throttle angle) has much more open area. - blksunshine

I only wanted to mention the relationship between throttle diameter and "tip-in" open area, so somebody here doesn't get the wrong idea and put a 90mm tb on their frequently driven street car and compound driveability issues, especially at low speeds.

Sometimes it can be a little difficult driving a car with a very touchy throttle in a neighborhood and trying not to hit any kids on the way back to your house. I say compounded, because you may already have a camshaft that doesn't have good low-speed driveability. This can also be an issue leaving stop lights, and driving in general if the pavement is wet.

Remember, we are talking about street driven cars here, and if I remember correctly, a 300hp 302 and a 400hp 347......these can be driven daily.

I feel this may only be an issue to some when the diamter is at or above 75mm. - blksunshine and George Klass from Accufab

There are no tip-in issues related to a race car, right? No one leaves the line off of idle. On a street machine, the only tip-in issue I have ever heard about are from guys using too large a TB for the engine combo. Someone running a 302 with a mild cam, street type heads, etc. and using a 90MM TB may have tip-in issues but he most likely has other issues worse than that anyway. What some people don't apperently understand (Jay included), is that a correctly sized TB will NOT have tip-in or off idle problems. There is a falicy out there, called "bigger is better" theory. This may be OK when we are discussing ladies breasts (or for the ladies, guys d--ks), but not throttle bodies. Most people have no clue what kind of air flow capacity (CFM) there engine can use so they get too big of a TB. One more time. Buy the RIGHT part the first time and you won't have these kinds of problems. - George Klass at Accufab

Well we did the dyno shootout for the throttle bodys. THe 90 mm one made about 3rwtq across the board and the rwhp picked up a couple it now made 355.89 instead of the 353.80. So all in all on a n/a hi rev motor it didnt seem to pick up much. - flyinj2z talking about a 75mm to 90mm TB on his 7k track 306 car.
O and the question about the 90mm throttle body. It did absolutely nothing for the car on the dyno. I had a 75 on it and did a direct swap as a experiment to see. So dont waste money on a 90. expecially in low power cars like mine. - flyinj2z

I wish I had more time...

I'm fixing to install a 90mm in my new set-up. I'm running a 65mm so I'll let you know how that goes. And for comparisons sake, I'll borrow my buddies 75mm and try that out as well. I'll get some proof of my own and post it up.

95Vert said:

I'm fixing to install a 90mm in my new set-up. I'm running a 65mm so I'll let you know how that goes. And for comparisons sake, I'll borrow my buddies 75mm and try that out as well. I'll get some proof of my own and post it up.

Click to expand...

What is your combination?

Remember a few things:

- Not all throttle bodies are created equal. Brand X does not equal Brand Y.
- The track has so many variables and is hard to see "real" gains.
- A 65mm may not be enough, but a 70mm may. This means that a 90mm would show gains, when the 70mm could do the same.

I gained 3 mph once with no changes.

thumper ported gt-40's, CI cam, Downs ford upper....

I know what you mean about the track having several variables, but the same can be argued with any other mod. I'll do the 75mm and 90mm at the track as well.

95Vert said:

thumper ported gt-40's, CI cam, Downs ford upper....

I know what you mean about the track having several variables, but the same can be argued with any other mod. I'll do the 75mm and 90mm at the track as well.

Click to expand...

You got that right

What brands are the 65, 75, and 90mm TB's?

Have you already converted over to the fox-setup?

I think a 90mm is way more than needed personally.

1369 CFM That is crazy talk...

Also over 3.5" diameter, so make sure that you piping is atleast the same size from filter to intake.

Yep, fox tb swap was done a long time ago. My 65mm is a FMS, not sure on the 75mm since it's my buddies, and the 90mm is an Accufab. Piping will all be 4".

5spd GT said:

Killercanary is running at 82% duty cycle with 24 lb injectors with 356rwhp 331.

30's are fine, but if you are getting a tune more would be just fine.

FRPP no longer makes 36 lb injectors.

I have yet to seen any gains from a 65-70-75mm TB. Please show me some proof of this as I have looked VERY MUCH into this.

Getting rid of the restrictive elbow is the main deal, not the throttle body.

Click to expand...

I don't believe he's running stock fuel pressure either. And in terms of BSFC... really the dyno is the only way to tell that. I actually gave him a little break and assumed the after market equipment gave him a lower value then normal.

I believe Paul has also stated that his combo is mismatched, with heads and a throttle that are too small. Once he slaps on the AFR 185s and the 75mm he was talking about those 24s will be crying.

I guess my point is that every car is different and that if you have to purchase something critical like injectors it is better to err on the side of caution and go one size bigger then monkey around with fuel pressure and the adaptive computer strategy. Just my opinion.

Adam

Adam, I am with you.

yobi - I am quite sure they are 42 lb injectors.

95vert - Good, I just hope you can launch the same, shift at the same rpm and speed, no changes in wind, etc.

yobi1kanobi said:

Thanks guys I Will try to find some 36#ers..As for my throttle body I will leave in the 65 for now if at some point I decide I want more power then I will go with the Fox conversion and maybe a 70-75...I sold the 42#er under the concerns that they would be too big and difficult to optimize for my combo. And from what I have seen on here 30#ers on NA combos seem to be the way to go.

What injectors to the stock 03-04 Cobras Run? Can we use those?

Click to expand...

Here is my take on what you are doing

Over a year ago, when John (WhiteDevil) was posting various Q's before the
build of his 347 was started, we talked about this very issue.

Way back then, I expressed my concern of 30's being too small.

Now ... I want to point out ... John tunes with stock fuel pressure

anyway

John reported he could not find any 36's
and
Since he had the ability of pcm access ...

I felt it would be more safe to move up to 42's and have
the option to tune AWAY some fuel as if the 30 were too small ...
one can't tune IN more fuel

Seems like he went with 30's as opposed to 42's
and
I don't remember him saying he has seen any prob with the 30's

Never the less

Once you do up a nice combo like that ............
One usually does take advantage of a nice tune

36's would be the smallest I would want for that combo
but
42's would not be a prob for a Pro tuner if you can't find 36's

Like John ... I tune with stock fuel pressure so that fact kind of
colors my thoughts I guess you could say

I just don't take a chance
with lean fuel issues :Word:

Grady