347 "carb'd" stroker???? let the war begin...

2000xp8 said:

Why the carb?
Contrary to popular belief the carb is not cheaper, and makes no more power.

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Yeah? When did the price of carb intakes and carbs go up? Last i checked i can still buy a Stealth intake and 650 double pumper for about $500 and that covers the intake/throttle body/mass air/injectors on a fuel injection set up. You can add the price of that up yourself but i can guarantee it'll cost more than $500

EFI is superior in pretty much every aspect except price and user friendliness, since i can tune my carb without a dyno or computer, and cost, and in the end a well tuned carb doesn't give up very much.

you get what you pay for

I swear you EFI guys need to open your minds and relax a bit. Do you really think racing was built off fuel injection? Do you think that if carbs were so crappy and useless that NASCAR would still use them? They're cheap and they work, they're simple to work on and they make power for a fraction of the price and a fraction of the work and hassle involved in working on the engine. They also weigh less and run cooler.

Here's a typical break down on prices to build the top end of a typical 347. I'll provide links for both EFI and carbed setups. I also won't pick the most expensive of either one just to make it fair.

EFI:

Intake: Holley Systemax. Referred by most people as one of the best EFI intakes you can get. $600 http://store.summitracing.com/partd...4294908331+4294840126+400178+115&autoview=sku

Injectors: I'm going by what my buddy used in his 347, he's running 42lb'ers, Ford Racing $400 http://store.summitracing.com/partd...4294839074+4294870762+400070+115&autoview=sku

Throttle body: Again, going by my buddy's build, BBK $200 http://store.summitracing.com/partd...400456+4294908331+4294840126+115&autoview=sku

Mass Air Meter: I couldn't even find one calibrated for 42lb injectors, so you can figure in some dyno tuning to calibrate it. Here's a 30lb cheapo Summit meter just for an average, $225

Then you have all the small things like fuel rails, the rest of the CAI, IAC etc etc. All in all you can expect to *average* well over $1425 just for what i listed depending on what you buy. Yeah you could go with a cheap Typhoon intake or something, but if you wanna do it right you're gonna shoot for good parts (while again, not the most expensive. I could've listed the BBK intake that's over $700 by itself).

Now for the carbed setup:

Intake: Weiand Stealth, $175 http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=WND-8020&autoview=sku

Carb: Holley 4150 650cfm, $340. http://store.summitracing.com/partd...4294839063+4294919007+400178+115&autoview=sku I've got mined tuned within an inch of its life, it doesn't even have a choke and it fires up in 30 degree weather.

Breather: I'll even pick the most expensive/best option you can get, the K+N X_Stream setup, $140 http://store.summitracing.com/partd...&N=700+4294925239+4294839057+115&autoview=sku

Add all that up, $655, barely more than you pay for just the intake on an EFI setup. You can argue all day about fuel pumps too, but you're gonna need a new one for that EFI setup as well so i left that part out. You could go with a custom carb, you could go with a Barry Grant, but all of those are based off of the Holley 4150 and there's nothing that carb can't do that the others can if you just tune it right. If you wanted a more race oriented setup, you could even opt for a Victor Jr. intake for $240 and an all out Holley HP series 750 for $520 but you'll still be half the price of the EFI setup.

So... $1425+ or $655?

In the end, you do get what you pay for. EFI is more consistent, more responsive in different climates and typically has better responsiveness. But all that comes at a hefty price. The original poster stated that this won't be a daily driver...i can assume that means no winters, so you can scratch that off the list. Jetting a carb takes about 10 minutes for a rookie and jets cost $6 a set. Even if i had to buy an entire jet kit for $100 or so, my budget is still way less. Tuned properly, i guarantee you my carbed setup won't give up any power or torque to the EFI setup.

The final kick in the nuts is that the EFI setup has to be dyno tuned to work, while i can take a drive down a back road and read my plugs and jet my carb as needed and only pay for the price of jets and maybe fuel bowl gaskets if i'm a rookie and rip one while taking a fuel bowl off. How much is dyno time going for these days?

holley has the best intake, huh.
42's on a 347? ya if it has a supercharger.
Fuel rails? No need.
IAC? umm, you re use the stock one.
How about converting the fuel setup for a carb is that free? A 155lph is about $75.
How about the distributer?

If us EfI guys need to relax our minds a bit, so do the carb guys, YOU DO NOT NEED ANY DYNO TUNING. These are not modular cars, dyno's have only been popular for about 10 years now, 5.0 EFI mustangs have been around for 20, what did people do before the dyno?
You no more need a dyno for an EfI mustang, than you do a carb'ed one.

I listed above what i payed for all the required parts for my setup, which is half what you suggest. And it's certainly not cheap crap for parts either.


Let's not forget the biggest carb in an EFI car expense of them all.
Diminished Value.
Selling an EfI car with a carb is like trying to sell a car that's been in a bad accident.

None of that changes the fact that i can still make the same power for less. And like i said those are for average prices, i never said Holley matter-of-fact makes the best intake, it's just for the sake of a typical build.


Also as far as depreciating value, that's 100% YOUR opinion. You can't say what every buyer is going to be looking for, especially in a car that's not going to be a daily driver.

and i can make pancakes cheaper than waffles

2000xp8 said:

holley has the best intake, huh.
42's on a 347? ya if it has a supercharger.
Fuel rails? No need.
IAC? umm, you re use the stock one.
How about converting the fuel setup for a carb is that free? A 155lph is about $75.
How about the distributer?

If us EfI guys need to relax our minds a bit, so do the carb guys, YOU DO NOT NEED ANY DYNO TUNING. These are not modular cars, dyno's have only been popular for about 10 years now, 5.0 EFI mustangs have been around for 20, what did people do before the dyno?
You no more need a dyno for an EfI mustang, than you do a carb'ed one.

I listed above what i payed for all the required parts for my setup, which is half what you suggest. And it's certainly not cheap crap for parts either.


Let's not forget the biggest carb in an EFI car expense of them all.
Diminished Value.
Selling an EfI car with a carb is like trying to sell a car that's been in a bad accident.

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Again, for the most part I agree here.

My car did not need a dyno tune.

Maybe I was lucky, that my car ran much better than any carb car I have come in contact with.

It is all in the eyes of the beholder. In my opinion, CARB is old school, IF you are replacing an already existing EFI unit.

Nascar running carbs? Yep, right around 750 CFM for about 800+ HP. Nascar has a lot of part limitations to restrict their power. They could make more.

A carb does allow for a slightly cooler charge, if you compare it to a long EFI runner unit.

I did and will again say, EFI is superior in most driveability aspects, but carbs are in no way a limitation on power. I'm just trying to emphasize that fact.

85_SS_302_Coupe said:

I did and will again say, EFI is superior in most driveability aspects, but carbs are in no way a limitation on power. I'm just trying to emphasize that fact.

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and im trying to emphasize i like pancakes

BK_CAULEY said:

and im trying to emphasize i like pancakes

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Waffles > pancakes

Waffles/pancakes
Hey 5spgt they don`t use around (lol) 750 cfm , but they do use 850`s just not at dega or daytona.
Carb is old school, no way no how.
Me thinks someone has been smoking their socks.

I have to agree on the pancakes

The one thing that I have not seen mentioned is: Emissions testing. Does the rest of the country not have emissions testing? Out here the car would be hard to sell for street use if it had a carb as it would not be allowed to be licensed as all of the emissions equipment is gone. Thus the value goes way down. If its a race car, I have no argument with the carb stuff. I think EFI has better driveability, no question. If it is 10 degrees outside, start a EFI car up, it idles, put it in gear and drive, all in less than 10 sec. With a carb, not likely to get it to idle in 10 sec, let alone put it in gear and have it not die. I said not likely, but I suppose you could tune one to do it, but you would have to change your tune once the weather warmed up, which for some of us is part of the fun on owning the car. With EFI, you do not have to change the tune with weather conditions, thus more daily driver friendly.

Again, to quote the original poster:

sickazzstang said:

Ok so I just picked up an 89 gt for next to nothing I'm going to build the car for the track and the occasional weekend ride. This WILL NOT be a d/d.

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And i'll say it yet again for the 3rd time, EFI is superior in most cases, mainly year around drivability. But, since this guy isn't building a car to be a daily driver, and since he's gutted the interior, etc etc, i don't think he's worried about that stuff.

Mainly, i just like to get into these threads because people bash carbs when i'm betting (no offense) 90% of you don't know what you're talking about and have never tuned a carb. I'm sure some of you will bark back at me and tell me about how you're 40+ years old and grew up with dad's Buick and cut your teeth tuning carbs, but most of what i read on these debates is complete BS...comments concerning what makes the most power and cost and how hard carbs are to work with...that's all BS. You can learn to tune a Holley by watching their DVD on tuning...it's a $20 DVD and tells you everything you need to know. It's as simple as that.

If money were no object? Hell yes, i would be EFI all the way. As i said before, this is about the cost per HP and what a guy can do on his own vs. paying people to do it for him. You may be able to put together an EFI engine without a dyno tune, but if you build anything mean enough you're going to have to tune it. If you run a high compression/high lift cam, you need to tune it just like i would need to jet my carb. To tune your EFI set up you have to dyno it, whereas i can be old school and read my plugs and jet the carb accordingly. You can't tell me people are out there building 500hp EFI engines without dyno tuning them...that's stupid.

In the end we may make the same power...and yeah maybe you can take your 500hp Mustang out in 10 degree weather, but i highly doubt any of you are doing that anyways so thats a moot point.

I'm going to have to go with waffles also because there's too much ignorance in this thread for anything else.
Unless you have run both on the street, and ran the same on the track... you would know more than you do now.
A carbureted setup will make more power cheaper than the EFI or MFI setup.
Emissions can be passed by either setup... The carb is just quicker and easier to put back in "performance" mode than EFI.
EFI is pretty much "plug and play" once you got it right, whereas the carburetor in my experience requires fiddling with every now and again... but then, so does the solid roller valvetrain.

347HO said:

I'm going to have to go with waffles also because there's too much ignorance in this thread for anything else.
Unless you have run both on the street, and ran the same on the track... you would know more than you do now.
A carbureted setup will make more power cheaper than the EFI or MFI setup.
Emissions can be passed by either setup... The carb is just quicker and easier to put back in "performance" mode than EFI.
EFI is pretty much "plug and play" once you got it right, whereas the carburetor in my experience requires fiddling with every now and again... but then, so does the solid roller valvetrain.

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A carburetor installed on a car that came with EFI WILL NOT pass emissions in the NAZI state of Washington no matter how clean it is out the tailpipe. Once the hood is opened, your toast! If you can get thru without opening the hood, then fine. But some of us are not so lucky to live where emissions testing is not an issue. The only thing going for us here is that once the car is 25 years old, then there is no more emissions testing to worry about, and you can get a vehicle of special interest plate and not have to license it again. Kind of off topic, SORRY!