I am new to this forum and was hoping someone may be able to give me their opinion on what heads may be the best choice for my "M" code 1970 mach 1. I am currently running the stock motor and fmx auto. I have a local guy offering me a good set of freshly rebuilt Aussie heads for $1500 bucks ready to bolt on. I could also go with a set of the aftermarket aluminum heads (any recomendations?) and which have better performance characteristics? The car is a cruiser, I am not looking for 11 second times down the track but I would like to see some tire burning performance down low which is what I currently am lacking. I also am wondering if anyone here is using Thorley headers and what pro's and con's I might expect to encounter. Thanks in advance.
351 Cleveland Help
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woodsnake
15 Year Member
Heads, cam and intake are all part of the equation. If you are just looking for a cruiser, and not out for an 11 second E.T., there are several options available. For the money, "kits" like Edelbrock's top end kits are tough to beat. For the money, IMHO, about any aftermarket head will be better/less expensive than a stock rebuild, plus machine work. Keep in mind that with a new camshaft, you will change the power band that the car uses, and if you get too much lift and duration, you will need a new rear end ring and pinion to take advantage of all your motor work.
And then there is safety too. Are you working with 4 drum manual brakes? Or have you got a power disc/drum set up?
Of course, you can't expect the 40 year old transmission to put up with a new 500 HP engine, and so will need to planfor that.......It gets expensive pretty quick.
Have you got a good tune up on the car? Plugs, points, timing, carb cleaned out? If the timing gear set is original, that should be one of the first things you replace. It will cure a mulitude of driveability issues.
A quick check on summit shows these "C" heads..
http://www.summitracing.com/search/...351/Engine-Family/Ford-Cleveland/?Ns=Rank|Asc
If you are thinking about a cam swap, now is the time. Keep in mind that valve springs and camshafts need to "match" each other..If you stay at or under .500 lift, you SHOULD be able to not have to change ring and pinion gears. But do more homework. Each cam will have a "cam card" that tells you the minimum gears, torque converter stall speed, etc...
And then there is safety too. Are you working with 4 drum manual brakes? Or have you got a power disc/drum set up?
Of course, you can't expect the 40 year old transmission to put up with a new 500 HP engine, and so will need to planfor that.......It gets expensive pretty quick.
Have you got a good tune up on the car? Plugs, points, timing, carb cleaned out? If the timing gear set is original, that should be one of the first things you replace. It will cure a mulitude of driveability issues.
A quick check on summit shows these "C" heads..
http://www.summitracing.com/search/...351/Engine-Family/Ford-Cleveland/?Ns=Rank|Asc
If you are thinking about a cam swap, now is the time. Keep in mind that valve springs and camshafts need to "match" each other..If you stay at or under .500 lift, you SHOULD be able to not have to change ring and pinion gears. But do more homework. Each cam will have a "cam card" that tells you the minimum gears, torque converter stall speed, etc...
Hack
15 Year Member
I think you should go here to ask your question:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/119419/
There is a build forum where you can look at what components other members used in their Cleveland builds and how much power they made. People on this forum are Cleveland fanatics!
I wouldn't buy Aussie heads at that price, even if they are completely gone through. They will work fine, but I think you can do better with a set of 4V iron closed chamber heads - or aftermarket aluminum will provide great all around performance if you want to spend the money. US 2V iron open chambers can work fine too. I'm frankly not a huge fan of Edelbrock, but they should do as well as the Aussie heads or slightly better. Trick Flow makes some Cleveland heads too. If I were buying aluminum I would buy CHI. Clevelands with CHI heads have won Engine Masters over and over. Since Engine Masters is a competition of average HP in the 2,500- 6,500 range I think that fits your criteria well.
Anyway like I said, I think you should go to the network 54 Cleveland forums, read through the builds and pick what you want from there.
http://www.network54.com/Forum/119419/
There is a build forum where you can look at what components other members used in their Cleveland builds and how much power they made. People on this forum are Cleveland fanatics!
I wouldn't buy Aussie heads at that price, even if they are completely gone through. They will work fine, but I think you can do better with a set of 4V iron closed chamber heads - or aftermarket aluminum will provide great all around performance if you want to spend the money. US 2V iron open chambers can work fine too. I'm frankly not a huge fan of Edelbrock, but they should do as well as the Aussie heads or slightly better. Trick Flow makes some Cleveland heads too. If I were buying aluminum I would buy CHI. Clevelands with CHI heads have won Engine Masters over and over. Since Engine Masters is a competition of average HP in the 2,500- 6,500 range I think that fits your criteria well.
Anyway like I said, I think you should go to the network 54 Cleveland forums, read through the builds and pick what you want from there.
Thanks for the suggestions, I have read extensively about cleveland engines for many years and have always been interested in this oddball Ford motor. I bought my Mustang about 6 years ago and at that time I knew the motor had been removed and reinstalled but wasn't aware of any modifications other than the 4bbl edelbrock carb. I believe the cam has been swapped out and I am aware that the cam, intake, heads ets all need to be "matched" in order to get the best performance. I have the motor out of the car now and will begin tearing it down this weekend, I am a cabinet maker not an engine builder but I know just enough to be dangerous. from what I have read the stock 4V heads are poor performers under 3500 rpm unless you invest in a stroker kit, unfortunately I lost two injectors in my deisel so there goes the "extra" cash I had. This will need to be a low budget build. My mods at this point will be a new timing set if the old stock unit is still installed, deburring the block, checking to see what the cam is and replace if necessary, check the main journals to see if the oil ports have been beveled, modify the oiling system to get more oil to the rear mains, check toerences and put the beast back together. the heads are my main concern while I have this motor out. Like "Hack" I have heard great things about the CHI heads however I have heard terrrible things about their customer service, and I dont need to be giving a company money who wont help after the sale. Maybe someone on here can let me know their experience with CHI. I also can get my hands on a original top loader wide ratio 4speed with hurst shifter for a couple hundred bucks. I just dont know how hard it would be to convert my auto to this....Any advice???? Thanks for all the help I really appreciate it!
For a "cruiser", the stock 4V heads should be just fine. The Cleveland 4V heads boast valves and ports that would shame a Chevy fuelie head. In fact, that's what they were designed to do. So big that performance on city streets actually suffers, but excellent on the open road.
Short story. Guy had a 70 351C 4V 70 mach1. Kinda slow. Replaced the generic Holley with a carefully restored Autolite carb. Got a little quicker, but not much. Replaced 3.25 gears with 3.90. Quicker, but not spinning tires much. I suggested he bring in the distributor, and put it on the machine. As usual, it was out of spec (they always are). I went with stock specs. He called the next day, reported both tire spin whenever he stomps the gas.
Distributor advance curve adjustment is almost universally overlooked, and is probably at least as important as carburetor tuning.
Short story. Guy had a 70 351C 4V 70 mach1. Kinda slow. Replaced the generic Holley with a carefully restored Autolite carb. Got a little quicker, but not much. Replaced 3.25 gears with 3.90. Quicker, but not spinning tires much. I suggested he bring in the distributor, and put it on the machine. As usual, it was out of spec (they always are). I went with stock specs. He called the next day, reported both tire spin whenever he stomps the gas.
Distributor advance curve adjustment is almost universally overlooked, and is probably at least as important as carburetor tuning.
Hack
15 Year Member
I know the Chivy guys always used to say that the 4V Cleveland ports were too big, but now that they worship at the shrine of the LS motors they can hardly talk like that any more, can they? 
Yes it is easy to cam a Cleveland too big or do other things to cause there to be a lack of low end torque with the 4V heads, but Ford put 4V Clevelands in mid-sized cars and they work great if set up right. Some people use a modern version of the Boss 351 cam, which isn't a bad choice. I went to MME McKeown Racing for a custom cam in my 408C I'm building with 4V closed chamber heads, but I haven't finished the build yet so I can't give a report on it. Still buying pieces. I think if you pick the right parts a 4V stock stroke Cleveland will be fun for you.
Yes it is easy to cam a Cleveland too big or do other things to cause there to be a lack of low end torque with the 4V heads, but Ford put 4V Clevelands in mid-sized cars and they work great if set up right. Some people use a modern version of the Boss 351 cam, which isn't a bad choice. I went to MME McKeown Racing for a custom cam in my 408C I'm building with 4V closed chamber heads, but I haven't finished the build yet so I can't give a report on it. Still buying pieces. I think if you pick the right parts a 4V stock stroke Cleveland will be fun for you.Glad to get all this feedback. I finally torn down the motor yesterday, I found a broken compression ring which is the good news I guess because I was thinking a cracked block. I guess now I may keep the old heads and grind the valve shelf off from the intake valve. Has anyone built up the exhaust port on the 4V heads to help with the sharp exit curve and if so how do I go about it?
(2+2 gt) I did change out the advance springs and weights, last year something I learned to do in high school shop class many years ago. It did make a small difference but of course I haven't put it on a scope to see if what I did was enough. I am running 390 rear gears now with the stock FMX. I am going to try to figure out what I have in this thing for a cam so I can decide if that needs to be replaced. my carb is an edelbrock 600 cfm and I have been in that swapping out springs and metering rods to try to tweek the performance. Let me know if I am on the right track! has anyone here changed from an auto to a toploader? how difficult and expensive is that conversion?
(2+2 gt) I did change out the advance springs and weights, last year something I learned to do in high school shop class many years ago. It did make a small difference but of course I haven't put it on a scope to see if what I did was enough. I am running 390 rear gears now with the stock FMX. I am going to try to figure out what I have in this thing for a cam so I can decide if that needs to be replaced. my carb is an edelbrock 600 cfm and I have been in that swapping out springs and metering rods to try to tweek the performance. Let me know if I am on the right track! has anyone here changed from an auto to a toploader? how difficult and expensive is that conversion?
joshprice
New Member
un less you have a 4spd parts car or the whole swap do a t 5 conversion they make a stock appering shifter and a cable operated cclutch clutch
Hack
15 Year Member
I would not recommend a T5 behind a Cleveland, unless you are going to baby it all the time. The Cleveland makes too much torque for a T5. The original poster wants a torquey build as well. I have a 3550 to put behind mine, which is also not strong enough, but I can't afford a TKO yet. I'm going with a weaker clutch to hopefully prevent any damage to the transmission. Then I'll go to a TKO when I can. I'd say a toploader would be ok as long as you don't drive a lot of highway miles, but I personally would stick with OD if possible. However, that makes the cost a lot higher, since the trans will be around $2100. Then you need a bell housing, shift linkage, etc. One thing you could do is be patient and look for used parts. However, you have to be careful when buying used speed parts to not get damaged or worn out stuff.
shakn68
Member
If your looking for an easy p[ower adder for a 351C, there's a Holley Strip Dominator intake for sale on ebay right now. That will get your tires spinning......
A lot depends on how often you plan to drive the car and how much money you are willing/able to spend. As you have gathered, Cleveland motors make good mid range torque and great top end HP. But like any large valve, large port small block, they don't make great low RPM torque. Stroking the motor to 408 will help a lot. Also, some 351CJ Cleveland motors came with a 2400 stall converters in 1973 and using that converter of a similar aftermarket converter would help launch a lot - even with a stock cam. If you stick with a FMX or C6 then I would go up to a 2400 RPM converter and a hotter than factory cam - probably a hydraulic roller provided one is available for the 351C (full disclosure: I have not built one in over 20 years). A stroked, 408 CID Cleveland can handle a hotter cam without screwing up your idle compared to a 351CID motor and the extra stroke will help your torque. If you are willing to spend the money (3K, maybe more), you could go with a beefed-up/modified 4R70W with a Bauman controller and then drop your rear gears to 3.91:1 (positive traction is a must!). That gear combined with the low 1st gear in the 4R70W transmission will give you a final ratio of 11:1 when launching in first gear. With a mild converter, you will roast your tires even with a near stock cam. But the 4R70W transmission has overdrive so when you are in OD, it is as if you had your stock FMX with a 2.73 gear - no high RPMs on the highway. And even better, your converter can lock up when cruising on the highway eliminating the extra stall. I have this same setup in a '70 mach 1 with a somewhat radical 428CJ (440 CID) solid roller and it works great (although I have a 3500 locking converter and would probably prefer a 2500-2800 for the street). And regardless of transmission, look into some ceramic coated headers. I modified a '71 351C-4V when I was a kid upgrading my cam, carb and added headers and the performance change was drastic - even with the stock cast iron 351-4V intake. And when the rear gear was changed to a 3.90 positive traction and the Ford 2400 stall added, the car went from (stock) running just ahead of stock classic '68 SS Camaro 350 automatic to whipping a lot of modified big block 4 speed cars of various types and was even beating a lot of nitrous powered street cars. Just stick with a good idle cam for the street. With those big valves, even most improvements in cam will make a big difference. As a kid, I overdid it for the street, using the old school Crane Fireball Cam that shook my car (advertised duration was 302/330 and lift over 500 - great high RPM power but terrible idle). My 428CJ was build 10 years ago. If I was building it today, I was stroke it and back off to a hydraulic roller cam. I'd leave the 3.91 gears, 4R70W transmission and go with a 2400 to 2600 locking converter - pretty much what I recommend for your 351C.
Edit note: I completely forgot - upgrading your carb is a must if upgrading your cam. Which one you pick will depend on your cam selection. I've had good luck with AED-modified Holley carbs and used a Holley carb in my old '71 way back when.
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