351 windsor in a 1971 mach 1?

[D.Hearne]

Okay, whatever bro, you're a freakin genius. You know everything there is to know about everything. Tell you what, I'll just pick one at random. Keith Craft has a 408 windsor with a dyno proven 517Hp and 533Tq for $7875. You build me a Cleveland that is dyno run and tested and tuned with aluminum heads, intake, water pump MSD ignition with a roller cam. You provide ALL the parts from carb to pan all new save for the block at an equal or cheaper price and I'll buy it from you. Actually given all your knowledge you should be able to build it with far more power than that....you do have a dyno right? Okay just PM me when you have it ready.

First off, I wouldn't build you ****, cause of your ****ty attitude. Second off, if I did, you couldn't afford it, based on your previous postings about being on a budget, then saying you were going to build both. You cannot keep your story straight, that tells me you're full of I don't know everything about everything, but I sure know more than you do. Go buy yourself a crate motor. I just hope whoever you buy it from is ready for the he's going to hear from you when you trash it, then blame him for what you did with his engine. I've seen your type before here, all mouth and nothing to back it up with..

 

[bnickel]

wow this thread got ugly quick. i know Dhearne was honsetly just trying to help you out dude but you obviously misinterpreted what he was trying to say. he's just a straight and to the point kind of guy, he wasn't trying to be an ass.

i can tell from you experience that the cost diff between building comparable windsor and cleveland engines isn't that great until you start getting into aftermarket heads and that's where it gets expensive. that said while a 4v cleveland is slightly less streetable than a 2v clevie or a windsor when built up with bigger cams, etc. in stock or fairly stock form the 4v clevie will blow the doors off a comparably built windsor, and even then only when you're talking about a 4v cleve with open chamber heads and low compression.

the biggest problem with the cleveland engines is the oiling system, which can be fixed for about 15 bucks and they have really bad problems with massive core shift. i know about that one from experience having blown up one clevie and found the cylinder walls were about twice as thick on side of the cylinder and paper thin on the other side. stock cleveland rods are also fairly weak too. that same engine broke 2 rods at the big end which is what caused the block failure in the first place and i wasn't even hot rodding it either, just driving down the highway at a steady 65 mph, with 3.00 gears so it wasn't even revving high, just about 25 rpm or so. that was probably a worst case scenario though and not likely to happen again like that.

i still prefer windsors over clevelands personally but if i had a car that originally had a clevie i'd probably stay with one. also as far as parts availablity goes, it is true that the cleve has been parts deficient for a while but the aftermarket is steadily remedying that fact and pretty quickly too, in fact about the only place where the cleveland is lacking is in the aftermarket head department but again that problem is quickly becoming a non-issue. TFS has just introduced a new head for the cleveland as well as the E'brock, CHI, Patriot and other offerings now too.

if it was me i'd stick with the clevie personally but i'd sonic check the block and make sure there aren't any core shift problems with it an i'd run aftermarket rods and one of the oiling system mod kits available, if you are keeping the build mild (under 450-500hp) i'd also stick with the stock 4v heads as there is no need to upgrade to aluminum heads at this power level and they'll flow as well as if not better than many aftermarket windsor heads. for a build of this level it would not cost any more more than likely quite a bit less than a comparable power level windsor since the windsor will have to have aftermarket heads to compete at this power level and the cleveland won't.

 

[machrox]

First off, I wouldn't build you ****, cause of your ****ty attitude. Second off, if I did, you couldn't afford it, based on your previous postings about being on a budget, then saying you were going to build both. You cannot keep your story straight, that tells me you're full of I don't know everything about everything, but I sure know more than you do. Go buy yourself a crate motor. I just hope whoever you buy it from is ready for the he's going to hear from you when you trash it, then blame him for what you did with his engine. I've seen your type before here, all mouth and nothing to back it up with..

LOLOLOL!!!! You are such a tool!!! I never said I was on a budget I said what I WANTED to spend on it. Read everything you jackass!!! Of course you never really hear what anyone is saying because you're too busy looking for an opportuntiy to retort. You're one of those people that can barely wait for someone to stop talking so you can talk, having never heard what they said or all you hear is what you want to hear. I'm glad you're such a smart guy that you know so much about me just through a few messages here. LOLOLOLOLOL.....god I've never met anyone on a forum that has been this big of an idiot. Also, you never answered my last message because you can't. You can't do it and reach the guildlines....can you? Just admit it.

So go back and read, if you can. I never said 7K was all I could spend. Nope. I never said that my 351C was ****, just that I was done with it and wanted to do something different. READ IT.....slow down and READ IT. As far as what I can afford, if I did talk about all the cars that I have (Like you do in your signature) I would look like as big of an ass as you do. Suffice to say that I'd invite anyone on here to come and see me and report to you as to the contents of my garage. I'm certain that you would have nothing to say then about what I could and could not afford.

Reply if you want but I'm done with you. You're arguements are stale and the same everytime. Each time I say something that you can't respond to with substance you simply attack me. READ THIS PART SLOW!!! I just want to do something different and go with a 351W. I loved my 351C but I'm done with it for now. IF it can be rebuilt it will be done to factory original specs for a later date if I want to sell the car!!!! GET IT!!!! You no longer have a dog in this fight so go away. Keep on thinking that a 351C with EQUAL AFTERMARKET COMPONENTS is a viable option to the Windsor in the power/components vs price comparison. I don't care what you think or believe anymore. Good day to you sir.

 

[machrox]

wow this thread got ugly quick. i know Dhearne was honsetly just trying to help you out dude but you obviously misinterpreted what he was trying to say. he's just a straight and to the point kind of guy, he wasn't trying to be an ass.

i can tell from you experience that the cost diff between building comparable windsor and cleveland engines isn't that great until you start getting into aftermarket heads and that's where it gets expensive. that said while a 4v cleveland is slightly less streetable than a 2v clevie or a windsor when built up with bigger cams, etc. in stock or fairly stock form the 4v clevie will blow the doors off a comparably built windsor, and even then only when you're talking about a 4v cleve with open chamber heads and low compression.

the biggest problem with the cleveland engines is the oiling system, which can be fixed for about 15 bucks and they have really bad problems with massive core shift. i know about that one from experience having blown up one clevie and found the cylinder walls were about twice as thick on side of the cylinder and paper thin on the other side. stock cleveland rods are also fairly weak too. that same engine broke 2 rods at the big end which is what caused the block failure in the first place and i wasn't even hot rodding it either, just driving down the highway at a steady 65 mph, with 3.00 gears so it wasn't even revving high, just about 25 rpm or so. that was probably a worst case scenario though and not likely to happen again like that.

i still prefer windsors over clevelands personally but if i had a car that originally had a clevie i'd probably stay with one. also as far as parts availablity goes, it is true that the cleve has been parts deficient for a while but the aftermarket is steadily remedying that fact and pretty quickly too, in fact about the only place where the cleveland is lacking is in the aftermarket head department but again that problem is quickly becoming a non-issue. TFS has just introduced a new head for the cleveland as well as the E'brock, CHI, Patriot and other offerings now too.

if it was me i'd stick with the clevie personally but i'd sonic check the block and make sure there aren't any core shift problems with it an i'd run aftermarket rods and one of the oiling system mod kits available, if you are keeping the build mild (under 450-500hp) i'd also stick with the stock 4v heads as there is no need to upgrade to aluminum heads at this power level and they'll flow as well as if not better than many aftermarket windsor heads. for a build of this level it would not cost any more more than likely quite a bit less than a comparable power level windsor since the windsor will have to have aftermarket heads to compete at this power level and the cleveland won't.

Hey Bnickel. That was great info. I agree with you and totally understand what you're saying. But, it is my belief.......let me say that again for others reading....it is my BELIEF, that you can't compare an aluminum head engine to a cast iron. If we had the same cars with the same horsepower, my aluminum head engine would be more efficient because of a tremendous weight difference. So while I will not agrue that you can build a clevie with cast iron heads and make the power with an aluminum Windsor, I still contend that that is not a true application based apples-to-apples comparison. Again, this is my point of view. Unlike what others have implied, I drive my cars at the track...for fun but I do DRIVE them...not just bench race and burnouts and to me handling matters too. Granted these are not handling cars but I wouldn't purposely handicap the car either. I don't really want to argue this point with anyone so if you don't like that part of it, please just understand that's what I want

I disagree with how you feel about DHearne. He's a dick, period. The only misinterpretation here......and I really believe everyone here should listen to this because I think you're all so used to it and don't realize......IT WAS NEVER A 351W vs 351C post!!!! Some of you here MADE IT INTO THAT!!! It was 351W in a 71 mustang, right? The replies were...."why not keep the Cleveland?"....."I'd stick with the Cleveland". Thanks for your opinion I respect it but that's not what I asked. If I'm wrong show me. I never asked for advice on a Cleveland DID I?!?!?!?!?!?!? If people are honest with themselves they'd see it to be true. As a new guy here maybe I can see something others can't. That's the inherent instinct to turn everything into a competition. I've owned a few Cobra's, all replica's...Kirkham and Superformance....and I really stay away from those forums now because it's always the big block vs small block thing. I could give a ****. To me....again, cuz I feel like I have to preface everything here.....TO ME a cobra should be a big block car. Like what you want but that's what I wanted and thus what I built. My point? Everyone needs to stop turning everything into a battle.

I appreciate greatly what you said here and respect it. I agree with most of it and already understood most of that coming in. No offense, really and truly, but do you see what I mean? Did I EVER as for advice about a Cleveland when I started this thread? I hope you can just look at it for a second and see what I'm saying. Thanks for the feedback, I respect what you said and more importantly....how you said it.

 

[BlownFiveLiter]

This one's done.

Machrox, if you still need help, start a new thread and be more open to differing opinions without resorting to name calling. Your attitude is in definite need of improvement if you expect these guys to offer any help, or if you should expect more of the same here.