66 4 speed Coupe - Installing Hurst Shifter

[Kurt1129]

Hey

I'm in the middle of installing a Hurst Competition Plus (3737637 & 3913180) on a Mustang Coupe 289 4 speed. The Mustang shifter kept getting stuck in gear.

I don't have a jack to support the transmission, so I'm trying to do it without taking off the crossmember. It is tight, but I've installed the mounting plate and the shifter unit OK. I have to attach the arms and rods still. Has anyone ever installed a Hurst Shifter and Installation kit without taking off the tranny crossmember?

There might be a problem with the clearance between the shifter levers and the transmission mount. It is real close. Is supposed to be this close? The middle (1-2) and inside shift (R) levers will touch the tranny mount when I pull them towards the back far enough.

I can see a previous owner has cut/lengthened the opening on the floor hump for the shifter...I'm beginning to wonder if more of this car has been changed than I thought.

How can I find out the transmission that is in there? It is a toploader and a metal tag on the passenger side of the transmission housing says "RUG J 2 022022". The Hurst chart says my car is a 432 transmission and I ordered the shifter for that application. But is there anywhere it says 432 on the tranny case?

Bottom line...I wonder if I have the right shift kit. Or maybe the tranny mount is just a little too big? Any other ideas? I'll try to attach photo, but it is obscured a bit by the Parking Brake Lever.

 

[67&05STANGS]

RUG-J is from 1967 Fairlane 390 wide ratio. I have this same trans in my 67 289 Mustang that I put the Hurst shifter in. It does sound like you got the wrong linkage kit. I had the same problem and took the kit back and got the right one. You shouldn't have to remove the cross member to install the linkage. It is a tight fit, but you should be able to get them lined up right.

 

[Nosboss]

Dont forget to loctite your bolts!!! I didn't the first time around and it came loose at a very bad time.

 

[BarnStang]

I went through this very problem. Call David Kee. Hurst sends cstomers to him so he can tell them the correct install kit part number. Hard to believe, but thats what they did. http://www.4speedtoploaders.com/
Incedently, I had the wrong kit. My local speed shop swore it was correct. After 2 hours,I called Hust (Mr Gasket) then David Kee. Got the right kit the next day and it was a breeze.

 

[Kurt1129]

Thanks for the good advice everyone. I had no idea this old coupe is a Frankenstein. I didn't expect to find a 67 Fairlane transmission in it. The David Kee website confirms what "67&05Stangs" told me about the RUG J2 tag code. That web site also provided me a lot of good info that I had never seen before.

I think I know which Hurst Install kit to order now (Hurst part#373-7638). I did a quick check with Hurst. They don't know as much as you guys, but they confirmed that the install kit I will be ordering has a different mounting plate. So I think the shifter will be in a better position and probably won't rub the tranny mount anymore.

I bought the original shifter and kit from Summit Racing, which is just a quick ride from my house. They even have the correct part in stock. But I think I'm gonna call David Kee's Toploader's Transmission Inc. to double check before I make the exchange. And I'll get a tube of loctite too, because I'm almost out (I would have forgot to put it on..thanks for the reminder!). Thanks again everyone. I'll send a quick note when it's up and running.

 

[D.Hearne]

If the transmission is a 390 specific Toploader, you've got more problems than the shifter installation. The 390 Toploader's input snout is too short to work with a smallblock bellhousing. The snout isn't going into the pilot bearing/bushing, leaving the input shaft unsupported. That may have caused the hard shifting, not the shifter. If left like this, it will eventually break the input bearing and destroy the gear on the shaft (it's part of the shaft actually) Could also break the cluster gear too. ..............there's more................... The 390 tailhousing is different, placing the shifter farther forward than the 289 tailhousing, so in effect, the install kit for a 289 car, doesn't fit the 390 tailhousing, the linkage rods will be too long for it. The easiest way to fix this is to find or have a thicker pilot bushing made(it will have to be .600" longer to support the input), to support the input shaft and swap the 390 tailhousing for a 289 car. The housing length is the same for both, just the shifter position is different.

 

[freddiecougar]

Incedently, I had the wrong kit. My local speed shop swore it was correct. After 2 hours,I called Hust (Mr Gasket) then David Kee. Got the right kit the next day and it was a breeze.[/QUOTE]

BTW, Hurst is no longer part of Mr Gasket. B&M bought Hurst a little over a year ago.

Tim

 

[BarnStang]

Oh yea! THats what I ment to write...
I've never seen this website before either:
http://www.hurst-shifters.com/index.asp
Maybe I don't get out enough!
Thanks freddiecouger.

 

[Kurt1129]

I hear what you're saying about the RUG J2 Toploader for the 390 '67-69 Fairlane. If this is the case, I hope whoever matched this Toploader to the 289 knew what they were doing and corrected the pilot bearing/bushing.

The Mustang shifter seemed shot to me, so I thought a new shifter was the best route. I didn't realize what I would find a different tranny.


I still think I can use the installation kit linkage designed for the RUG J2 toploader. But I hope I don't have a time bomb that's going to break someday on the road. If shifting is still difficult, I'll know you're right. I appreciate you pointing this out.

 

[D.Hearne]

Better to look and see if the pilot bearing/input shaft deal is corrected, than to find out later. When the input bearing breaks, it ain't pretty. Or fun broke down on the side of the road. Best way is to pull the transmission, remove the bell, then remove the clutch and pressure plate, then replace the bell and insert the transmission, then look thru the clutch fork window and verify that the input is going into the pilot bearing/bushing. But just a look at the input shaft will tell you, the FE's (390-428) inputs have a short snout forward of the splined portion thats about 3/4" long. The Small block snout is about 5/8" longer. If the snout is short, and the pilot bearing is nearly flush with the back of the crank, I can guarantee the snout isn't into the pilot when bolted up. As for a thicker bearing or bushing, there's a couple threads about this over on the FE big block forum on network54 http://www.network54.com/Forum/74182/ Ford used to have a bushing for this fix and Roush Racing carries a bearing for it.

 

[dennis112]

Keep in mind that all late 65'-73' toploader cast iron cases are identical, irregardless of the tag found on the case. Its the input shaft, output shaft, and gear ratio that is used that makes the difference between any of these trannies (disregarding tailshafts housings.) I've mixed and matched these things for years--even had a 69' 428CJ/Boss 429 specific case behind a 200ci 6 banger for a while. Got some nice bucks for that case from a restorer, just because of the ID tag.

It is quite possible that the case was converted to small block usage. You can only tell for sure if it is removed and the input shaft is inspected. Now is the time to check it out, BEFORE you have expensive damage.

The extended pilot bearing is a band aid that will not handle severe abuse. The proper way to convert a BB toploader is to swap the input shaft for the longer SBF one.

View attachment 337928

Here is a SBF toploader with the proper tailshaft for a Mustang. Note the shifter mounting location.

 

[Kurt1129]

Thanks for the good pictures and explanations.

I know a good tranmission shop. If I get my car on their lift, it would be straightforward for them to take apart, inspect, and tell me if the input shaft is matched or not.

Let's say it is the worse case and it is not correctly matched. is it a difficult job to replace the input shaft on the toploader to one that is correct for the 289 smallblock?

Or maybe I should be searching for another toploader. I would have one to trade! I see David Kee's toploaders are in the $1800 - $2000 ballpark, but he is a long way away from me in San Antonio.

 

[D.Hearne]

Just locate one of the thicker pilot bearings or bushings. The one you'r looking for was used on the Boss 302 Mustangs, these got a big block Toploader for some reason. Also was used in some of the early Broncos which used a big block transmission too. A $20 bearing/bushing is a lot cheaper than buying a new input and the labor to install it. To install it, the transmission has to come out, then the input shaft can be replaced. But you also run the risk of the gears not matching and could end up with a noisy transmission. Even if the input gear was the correct one, the wear on the cluster gear will not be "worn in" with it and they may make noise. The tailhousing is a simple quick fix, they're interchangeable (390 tail to a 289 tail, both are the same length)

 

[dennis112]

Thanks for the good pictures and explanations.

I know a good tranmission shop. If I get my car on their lift, it would be straightforward for them to take apart, inspect, and tell me if the input shaft is matched or not.

Let's say it is the worse case and it is not correctly matched. is it a difficult job to replace the input shaft on the toploader to one that is correct for the 289 smallblock?

Or maybe I should be searching for another toploader. I would have one to trade! I see David Kee's toploaders are in the $1800 - $2000 ballpark, but he is a long way away from me in San Antonio.

Glad to help.

You won't need to take the tranny anywhere to have it inspected. Just measure the pilot bearing length and compare to the top pic. It might have already been converted. If you find it to be over an inch, you've got the right input shaft for your 289.

Swapping the input shaft is not a quick job. It normally requires that the tranny be completely dissassembled--a good time to freshen up the blocking rings, roller bearings and such. Luckily ALL parts are readily available for these trannies so securing a SBF input shaft is just a phone call away.

By the way, if originality is not important and you are not building a high HP289, spend the 1800-2K on a T5 conversion. You will love the overdrive.

 

[Kurt1129]

I have not taken out the toploader to inspect the input bearing yet. I did try to install the Hurst shifter again, this time with an install kit that was designed for the RUG J2 toploader.

I wasn't successful. The shift lever is too tight against the driver side of the hole in the floor and the reverse lever won't be able to swing back from the neutral position. It also looks like someone placed some shims between the toploader and the mount.

Is there any reason that someone would have put 2 shims between the mount and the pedestal of the toploader? Maybe I'm wrong, but that's what it looked like!

I was able to catch David Kee today. He recommended a different Hurst shifter installation kit (3735587) that will line up better with the shifter mounting location (located on the mid portion of the tailhousing - not the end, something about C60 or C70 stamped on the pass. side of the tailhousing). I will give this new shifter install kit a try, but I'm concerned that if those are really shims between the mount and housing, the shifter will sit too high in the hump and rub the floorboard...However, if everything works down by the levers, I might just cut an inch of floor board metal and declare victory.

David Kee really seems to know his stuff. After getting this info from him, I feel bad that I have bought my parts at Summit Racing. But I get a feeling I'll have a chance to get some parts from Kee in the future.

If I can't find a replacement shifter, I will start to think about getting a more correct toploader in there. That would clear up both of my issues (input shaft bearing and shifter clearance). It doesn't look too hard to pull a transmission and push a new one in there...It will give me a chance to learn about the clutch too.
One way or the other, it looks like I'll be dropping that toploader on my garage floor in 2008.

 

[D.Hearne]

The problem you're having is you've got a 390 spec Toploader, & the first install kit was for a 289 Toploader. Then you've tried the 390 install kit, but as you've got a small block with the 390 trans behind it, that throws the tailhousing mounting position for the shifter off. Hopefully david's got you in the right direction now. You did ask about using a 390 spec Toploader with the small block bell didn't you?

 

[Kurt1129]

Yes, I described the small block and the 390 toploader to David. But we didn't talk about the input shaft bearing. He just lined me up with the right installation kit for the C70 tailhouse.

I took a closer look this evening at what I described as "shims". I scraped away some grease and looked closer. What I thought were shims is probably just a platform and part of the cast iron housing.

Man, this garage floor is cold when it's snowing outside.

 

[D.Hearne]

You could have simply swapped a 289 tailhousing on it and used the 289 kit. But you'll still need to fix the input shaft shortfall.

 

[dennis112]

Agree with D.Hearne in that the tailhousing is a simple bolt-on affair.

Drop the drive shaft, drain the fluid, remove 5 bolts, pull the tailhousing off.

There needs to be a bushing and a seal at the end of the tailshaft. Install a fresh gasket and reinstall everything in the revers order. Re-install some gear lube.

 

[Kurt1129]

I'm not going to remove the tailhousing, but would it really pull off by hand after removing those 5 bolts? Can you just pull the tailhousing off straight over the tailshaft? I think I remember seeing some kind of puller tool in the service manual?

I saw a dealer who has iron tailhousings for $275 and aluminum ones for $325.