'87 Coupe Going Under The Knife... Looking For A Good Forum

90sickfox · Sep 10, 2017

What did ya do that for....???

We were having a good ole time talkin' engines and you wanna go get rear ends all involved.

TOOLOW91 · Sep 11, 2017

Davedacarpainter said:
You know what I think?

You have an engine already, you have a transmission already. Build it.

It's not like your trying to cram some damn japanese engine in there (@TOOLOW91 )

Had it out today with him actually for a shake down run . Body work is not done

NickPohlAandP · Sep 11, 2017

TOOLOW91 said:
Had it out today with him actually for a shake down run . Body work is not done

WTF is that?!?!

Davedacarpainter · Sep 11, 2017

NickPohlAandP said:
WTF is that?!?!

Japanese voodoo

CarMichael Angelo · Sep 11, 2017

Davedacarpainter said:
Japanese voodoo

It's what my engine compartment may look like some time in the future,...Only it'll still say Ford on the engine. (Literally)

Barra baby!....This is the Ford version of a 2jz,...just as power capable,..there are 1300hp versions of this thing out there..

a91what · Sep 11, 2017

Yes please. Where do I send the check? Is that available in the states?

CarMichael Angelo · Sep 11, 2017

a91what said:
Yes please. Where do I send the check? Is that available in the states?

It shows up once in a blue moon,...and unfortunately the starter is on the wrong side of the engine.

Trojan Horse · Sep 12, 2017

"

madmike1157 said:
That's bunk if you believe that. If it takes some sort of higher level of ingenuity to make a ford engine make more/or similar power than an LS equivalent, the " smart" thing to do then would be to take the easier path and convert.
There is nothing more commonplace than a 5.0 in a Fox Mustang...."daring to be different " is an open invitation to swap out that engine.

It doesn't take an advanced degree to learn that when you combine a 351 block, w/ a set of AFR185-205/TFS11r heads, a good cam and take your pick from a multitude of good intake offerings, your "science project" will net you in excess of 450 HP.
It also doesn't require much book larnin' to know that a 6.0 LS JY engine is a superior starting point, given that the foundation will be superior to a 351 on several levels. It doesn't make sense considering that a windsor engine platform is going on 60 years old., Seems ford could've done something in that time to deal with some of a 351's shortcomings. It also seems kinda stupid that Ford decided to dump all of their future R&D into the modular platform, an expensive to modify, technically challenging, and then jam all of that little stuff into a big giant box, that won't fit in nothing except a fox. On the other side of the street, the Chevy engineers chose to stay with similar technology that they knew would work in the new and aftermarket sectors,..and offer that engine in multiple sizes that start 50 cubic inches bigger than the mod engine, and not ignore their aftermarket sector like the guys at Ford have.

Staying true to the brand doesn't require any special skill, it only requires a brand loyalty.
And even after all of the above rant,..I am the poster child here for staying with the brand while daring to be different.
Does that make me smarter? Hardly. Most here would say it was stupid to spend the time and money on a project like mine fo the sake of keeping an LS out of my engine bay.

Doesn't mean that I have that much of a problem with it one way or the other,...but it definitely would've been the smarter thing to do, IF I was actually trying to accomplish something and had a plan to do it as cheaply as possible

(i.e. Get 400 c.i, 425/450, and 27 mpg)

Making a fast car may mean ditching that loyalty,..ford guys are the ones that all too easily forget what hotrodding was originally about,....

LOL! Don't get mad Mike, but yes, I do believe it. Yes, you are correct, the 302s and 351W engines and their mods have become "common place" these days, but all Ford/Mopar/Etc., engines still lag far behind the Chevy engines as far as actual usage and how they are being modified. What HRM was saying was that anything and everything that could be done to an engine already has been done to the Chevy engines and they were and still are correct. You can find virtually any combo you want at any power level you want for a Chevy engine with all of the specs and build parts already laid out for you, meaning you have to do zero thinking for yourself. Just choose a setup you desire and do it.

"It also seems kinda stupid that Ford decided to dump all of their future R&D into the modular platform, an expensive to modify, technically challenging,"
" If it takes some sort of higher level of ingenuity to make a ford engine make more/or similar power than an LS equivalent, the " smart" thing to do then would be to take the easier path and convert."
See what I mean, it does take a higher level of ingenuity/technical knowledge to build a Ford modular, you just said so yourself and not all of us would want to just "take the easier path and convert." That's the "lazy & cheap" way IMO. BUT, If conversion is the only thing you can afford to do, then it becomes the "smart" way to get as much power as cheaply as you can.
A lot of people do not want to further educate themselves engine wise, and put in the "thinking & time" it requires. However, I do fully understand what you are saying about the cost and I agree with you 110% on that aspect. I also read somewhere that "cubic inch for cubic inch" the modular engine will put out more HP per cubic inch than the Chevy engines. I'm not too sure about that as I have not seen the proof, but maybe it's true? Do you know?

I think it's only a matter of time before someone will come up with a way to get a lot more cubes out of the modular engines. Whether or not anyone but the rich guys will be able to afford them is another thing, but we will each spend whatever it takes or whatever we can afford on whatever we decide to do.
Take me for example on "what we can afford to do." I was disabled by a work accident (the reason I haven't been on here for a long time). Being disabled means that I have very limited funds to work with these days and it takes me easily twice as long as an able bodied person to do most things if not even longer. I have been saving and buying parts as I can afford them for my build. My build entails a Keith Craft 306 stock, short-block with a cast steel crank, X303 cam, forged H-beam rods and forged pistons. I have a still NIB Paxton Novi 2000 supercharger to add to it, a now ancient, but still NIB AFM PMS tuner and a host of other go fast parts. My goal is to see how far I can push the 306 past the 500 HP limit that usually kills them. I plan to pick all of your brains to help me accomplish my goals.

Anyways, Peace madmike 1157, I did not intend to offend or rile you or anyone else up. Text on a screen cannot convey your true meanings and feelings like a good old face to face can.
I also do understand why Nick is going the way he's going with his build and like I said, I do support him in his project regardless of the engine he uses.

CarMichael Angelo · Sep 12, 2017

Trojan Horse said:
"

LOL! Don't get mad Mike, but yes, I do believe it. Yes, you are correct, the 302s and 351W engines and their mods have become "common place" these days, but all Ford/Mopar/Etc., engines still lag far behind the Chevy engines as far as actual usage and how they are being modified. What HRM was saying was that anything and everything that could be done to an engine already has been done to the Chevy engines and they were and still are correct. You can find virtually any combo you want at any power level you want for a Chevy engine with all of the specs and build parts already laid out for you, meaning you have to do zero thinking for yourself. Just choose a setup you desire and do it.

"It also seems kinda stupid that Ford decided to dump all of their future R&D into the modular platform, an expensive to modify, technically challenging,"
" If it takes some sort of higher level of ingenuity to make a ford engine make more/or similar power than an LS equivalent, the " smart" thing to do then would be to take the easier path and convert."
See what I mean, it does take a higher level of ingenuity/technical knowledge to build a Ford modular, you just said so yourself and not all of us would want to just "take the easier path and convert." That's the "lazy & cheap" way IMO. BUT, If conversion is the only thing you can afford to do, then it becomes the "smart" way to get as much power as cheaply as you can.
A lot of people do not want to further educate themselves engine wise, and put in the "thinking & time" it requires. However, I do fully understand what you are saying about the cost and I agree with you 110% on that aspect. I also read somewhere that "cubic inch for cubic inch" the modular engine will put out more HP per cubic inch than the Chevy engines. I'm not too sure about that as I have not seen the proof, but maybe it's true? Do you know?

I think it's only a matter of time before someone will come up with a way to get a lot more cubes out of the modular engines. Whether or not anyone but the rich guys will be able to afford them is another thing, but we will each spend whatever it takes or whatever we can afford on whatever we decide to do.
Take me for example on "what we can afford to do." I was disabled by a work accident (the reason I haven't been on here for a long time). Being disabled means that I have very limited funds to work with these days and it takes me easily twice as long as an able bodied person to do most things if not even longer. I have been saving and buying parts as I can afford them for my build. My build entails a Keith Craft 306 stock, short-block with a cast steel crank, X303 cam, forged H-beam rods and forged pistons. I have a still NIB Paxton Novi 2000 supercharger to add to it, a now ancient, but still NIB AFM PMS tuner and a host of other go fast parts. My goal is to see how far I can push the 306 past the 500 HP limit that usually kills them. I plan to pick all of your brains to help me accomplish my goals.

Anyways, Peace madmike 1157, I did not intend to offend or rile you or anyone else up. Text on a screen cannot convey your true meanings and feelings like a good old face to face can.
I also do understand why Nick is going the way he's going with his build and like I said, I do support him in his project regardless of the engine he uses.

I can't pollute this guys thread with this argument, and I'm not mad, if you and I were sitting across from each other, and we were having this conversation face to face, my tone would have a slight sneer of skepticism in it, not anger.
I'll only add this:

Again,...I'd challenge that statement. There are far too many examples of race teams, restricted to " cookie cutter " builds in the stock car world, where the " rules" only allow certain equipment be added to a certain cubic inch SBC engine in a class. I.e. You can only use this head, you can only use this 2bbl carb, you can only use that camshaft, and you have to be willing to submit to a full tear down if you get challenged should you win.
All of that done in an attempt to level the playing field, and take cubic dollars out of the equation. It makes the driver, and the engine builder the most important part of that equation.

And all things as equal as can be,....there's alway the one/ two cars that manage to run away from the field.

Throwing parts together on a certain engine will net a rough outcome with regard to power. It doesn't matter whether that applies to a LS, SBC, BBC, or the equivalent ford SB/BB. It's just as easy for a company to throw a bunch of ford parts in a bin and advertise 400 hp now days, as it is for somebody selling Chevy junk.

TOOLOW91 · Sep 12, 2017

NickPohlAandP said:
WTF is that?!?!

Toyota Supra 2jz with a t56 magnum behind it

Bullitt347 · Sep 12, 2017

Chevy's are cheaper to build when you are talking stock block type stuff. Get into a serious build and it is almost a wash between building a SBF or SBC. Doing a quick Summit Racing search the cost of a Callies Compstar crank for a SBF or Chevy is withing $15. The cost difference between both engines for Eagle H beam rods is a wash with some part numbers being for either/or. The same with a AFR 220 Renegade cylinder head, both cost the same. The Dart SHP block is about $300 cheaper for the SBC compared to the SBF, but most other parts are withing a few $ either way. The one thing that I am sure most are aware of is the selection available for the SBC far outweighs what is available for the SBF. Take Callies for example, they list about 30 part number for the Chevy when searching for connecting rods, but none for the SBF. Typically the SBC has at least 2 times the selection of parts compared to the SBF. And that is driven by demand. If one were to build a 400+cid SBC/SBF in the over 1,500 HP range, I am pretty confident that both would cost about the same.

Davedacarpainter · Sep 12, 2017

@RaggedGT

CarMichael Angelo · Sep 12, 2017

Bullitt347 said:
Chevy's are cheaper to build when you are talking stock block type stuff. Get into a serious build and it is almost a wash between building a SBF or SBC. Doing a quick Summit Racing search the cost of a Callies Compstar crank for a SBF or Chevy is withing $15. The cost difference between both engines for Eagle H beam rods is a wash with some part numbers being for either/or. The same with a AFR 220 Renegade cylinder head, both cost the same. The Dart SHP block is about $300 cheaper for the SBC compared to the SBF, but most other parts are withing a few $ either way. The one thing that I am sure most are aware of is the selection available for the SBC far outweighs what is available for the SBF. Take Callies for example, they list about 30 part number for the Chevy when searching for connecting rods, but none for the SBF. Typically the SBC has at least 2 times the selection of parts compared to the SBF. And that is driven by demand. If one were to build a 400+cid SBC/SBF in the over 1,500 HP range, I am pretty confident that both would cost about the same.

Yeah, but a complete idiot could build the 1500 hp Chevy...

You'd have to be a freakin rocket scientist to build a 1500 hp ford engine.

Kerstinzn · Sep 12, 2017

Thank god the LT1 I have is in good shape

CarMichael Angelo · Sep 13, 2017

Kerstinzn said:
Thank god the LT1 I have is in good shape

Why? On a LT 1, only thing you need is an unused bolt hole..

Then you'll have a place to bolt the chain to keep your boat from drifting away.

NickPohlAandP · Sep 13, 2017

Trojan Horse said:
...See what I mean, it does take a higher level of ingenuity/technical knowledge to build a Ford modular.....I think it's only a matter of time before someone will come up with a way to get a lot more cubes out of the modular engines. Whether or not anyone but the rich guys will be able to afford them is another thing, but we will each spend whatever it takes or whatever we can afford on whatever we decide to do. ....

I don't know about a higher level of ingenuity, but I will agree with a higher level of technical knowledge. In your standard OHV V8 you stab one cam, degree it, you're done. I've built enough mod motors to know what goes into them. I think I said it before, but I'll say it again, I don't discriminate when it comes to the "manufacturer" of an engine. By the time I'm done building an engine, the only manufacturer likeness it has is the basic design. I don't even want to tell you how easy it is to put one cam in, perfectly degreed, 180 out on a mod motor. You won't know until you fire it up. It won't hurt anything, but it'll run and sound like garbage.

As far as big inch Mod motors go, as much as I'd love to see it, I don't think it'll ever happen. I mean, they've been out for over 27 years and there is only ONE aftermarket head for them. ZERO aftermarket blocks (unless you want to count some of the billet blocks I've seen for the Coyote, but I don't count them because they're not suitable for a street car). If it hasn't happened after 27 years, it's probably not going to happen, and if it does, the price will be ridiculous. There's not much point to a big inch modular anyway, not as long as TF is your ONLY choice of aftermarket head. Everyone knows that the only way to make big power on a mod motor is lots of boost, and they do that very well. Why would Dart, Brodix, or any other manufacturer go out of their way to build an aftermarket big bore block capable of big inches when the top end is not available to support it? Big inches are primarily for naturally aspirated engines, and no PI 2V, 4V C head, or 2V TF head is going to support a 400+ cid modular engine naturally aspirated.

madmike1157 said:
I can't pollute this guys thread with this argument...

No worries man, you're not polluting my thread.

Bullitt347 said:
...The one thing that I am sure most are aware of is the selection available for the SBC (and BBC) far outweighs what is available for the SBF/BBF...

This^^^ This is EXACTLY why I end up building more Chevy than anything else. It's not because I favor them over another, it's because the aftermarket is just so much more abundant. If someone comes to me and wants me to build them a Ford FE or 385 series I'll gladly do it. I'll sit down with them, go over their goals, and present their options and what it'll cost. I'd do the same with a SBF, SB Mopar, BBF, BB Mopar, Honda, whatever... it makes no difference to me.

In my case I came across a running 454 from a motor home with less than 70k miles on it, a TH400 trans in great condition, a set of very nice -781 BBC heads, a J&W SFI rated bellhousing for the trans, a Scat 4.00 cast crank, and an Eagle 4.250 crank... and I'm into all of that for less than $700 probably. Financially it makes sense for me to go with what I've got. I'm the sole breadwinner in my house. I support my wife, two stepsons, and my (almost) 2 year old baby boy. I'm ballin on a budget. If I could get my car to run 9's with a Mazda 13B for $19 then I'd have a little rotary in there.

Bullitt347 · Sep 13, 2017

NickPohlAandP said:
I If I could get my car to run 9's with a Mazda 13B for $19 then I'd have a little rotary in there.

Not me. I refuse to put brand X in anything. If it is a Chevy, it gets Chevy stuff, ect, ect. I waited and saved for 5 years so I could build my drag car the way I wanted. I was not going to cheap out and slap X,Y or Z in the car just to get it going. I already have a belly button, don't need to create any more. And if you have seen my combo, yes it is a Ford in a Ford, but it ain't like nothing you have ever seen, so even it is not a belly button Ford build.

NickPohlAandP · Sep 13, 2017

Bullitt347 said:
Not me. I refuse to put brand X in anything. If it is a Chevy, it gets Chevy stuff, ect, ect. I waited and saved for 5 years so I could build my drag car the way I wanted. I was not going to cheap out and slap X,Y or Z in the car just to get it going. I already have a belly button, don't need to create any more. And if you have seen my combo, yes it is a Ford in a Ford, but it ain't like nothing you have ever seen, so even it is not a belly button Ford build.

I think you missed the point of that story.

NickPohlAandP · Sep 13, 2017

What kind of engines would you put in these?

Davedacarpainter · Sep 13, 2017

NickPohlAandP said:
What kind of engines would you put in these?

Supercoupe Ford

'87 Coupe Going Under The Knife... Looking For A Good Forum

90sickfox

Wasn't a pretty sight...and I've got big hands

TOOLOW91

If you're the village idiot what's that make me?

NickPohlAandP

I'm motor boating a tranny

Davedacarpainter

Chicks can make things hard if they’re inspired...

CarMichael Angelo

my rearend will smell so minty fresh,

a91what

SendMeUrDataLog

CarMichael Angelo

my rearend will smell so minty fresh,

Trojan Horse

CarMichael Angelo

my rearend will smell so minty fresh,

TOOLOW91

If you're the village idiot what's that make me?

Bullitt347

I have been doing it wrong this whole time

Davedacarpainter

Chicks can make things hard if they’re inspired...

CarMichael Angelo

my rearend will smell so minty fresh,

Kerstinzn

CarMichael Angelo

my rearend will smell so minty fresh,

NickPohlAandP

I'm motor boating a tranny

Bullitt347

I have been doing it wrong this whole time

NickPohlAandP

I'm motor boating a tranny

NickPohlAandP

I'm motor boating a tranny

Davedacarpainter

Chicks can make things hard if they’re inspired...

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