A bunch of handling questions for the experts

[Dangalang]

Basically, I want to get my '88 GT to handle as well as possible. My dad has a stock '01 GT... And while my car is much faster, I like his better because of the way it handled. Everything from how it carved the corners, to the steering, to the stability seemed atleast 10x better then my fox, and I loved it.

Right now I'm really trying to decide if I should sell my fox, and get something newer... Or keep my stang, and invest money into making it handle better.

I want something tight and responsive, and something that will be stable as a rock at high speeds. Two things that my stang is very far from achieving right now.

My question is... Is it possible? If so, what needs to be done? Are there any REALLY good handling packages available that are also cost-effective? I want my car to feel like a very high end sports car in the turns

ANY information would be apreciated, thanks

 

[TIMMY2734]

Go over to corner-carvers.com and use the search function.
check out panhard bar, torque arm, steedas 5 link, watts link, and evolution motorsports is coming out with a 3 link very shortly

 

[stang1989]

In my opinion there are only two manufacturers worth your time and effort: Griggs and Maximum Motorsports.

www.griggsracing.com
www.maximummotorsports.com

 

[5spd GT]

I'm interested in this also...Tell me more

I recently got rid of my 2000 GT and I loved the way it handled very confidently.

My 93 LX only has subframes and lowering springs and is nothing compared to the 2000 GT. Could my handling be affected by having 245/50/16's on the stock ponys. I am guessing they are to wide for effective handling

David

 

[Dangalang]

Thanks for the links. Still looking for any advice from others....


If someone could recomened specific aftermarket suspension parts that I could get, and describe what they will do to my car's handling, I'd be set

 

[stang1989]

It all depends on how far you want to go and how much money you have to spend.

Call Jack at Maximum Motorsports and he can put together a budget-conscious package that will make your 88 out handle just about anything on the road. He can even set up installation stages if you can't afford everything at once. Otherwise, we can all sit here and make recommendations all day and waste everyone's time. He can also explain what each part or system does to make the 79 fairmont chassis (your 88 GT) handle better.

Do yourself a favor while your at it and learn to use the search button. This topic has been covered hundreds of times on Corral.net, Stangnet, and on Corner-carvers.com. No on likes to repeat this **** over and over.

 

[stangbear427]

In my opinion there are only two manufacturers worth your time and effort: Griggs and Maximum Motorsports.

That's my opinion too- however, I prefer having a torque arm and they both use one in their top packages. If a torque arm isn't something you want to consider, then these guys may not be the best choice. I don't think there is a way to make a fox handle better than a torque arm without butchering the whole platform, but that's not necessarily the prevailing opinion.

My dad has a stock '01 GT... And while my car is much faster, I like his better because of the way it handled. Everything from how it carved the corners, to the steering, to the stability seemed atleast 10x better then my fox, and I loved it.

Right now I'm really trying to decide if I should sell my fox, and get something newer... Or keep my stang, and invest money into making it handle better.

You love the handling from a stock '01 GT? Your '88 must be really toasted. After getting used to how my '91 handles with a full MM package, my dad's '01 GT feels about as stiff as an old Caddy on the backroads. Vague, bouncy, sloppy, unpredictable, it doesn't even feel like a cheap sports car, and it's like new with only 17" Cobra wheels on it and 30k on the clock. It handles like crap in my opinion- which shows how far the older foxes have to go to be even considered good, nevermind great. It feels better than your's because it isn't worn out yet. If you like your fox than it's far cheaper to make a 'Vette killer out of what you have than it is to upgrade your fleet to a newer one and pay the bigger payments, more expensive prices for mods, and higher insurance all so you can have what I consider to be very mediocre handling. You'll need a better reason than that. Our '79-'93's can be made to handle as good as any world class sports car on earth, if set up right. stang1989 gave you the best advice out there- call them both up and talk to a tech. They won't let you down.
Drive dad's '01 again after you've had a MM grip box in your's for a few weeks and then see how much you like it.

 

[Dangalang]

THANKS for the advice guys, it's great

You love the handling from a stock '01 GT? Your '88 must be really toasted. After getting used to how my '91 handles with a full MM package, my dad's '01 GT feels about as stiff as an old Caddy on the backroads. Vague, bouncy, sloppy, unpredictable, it doesn't even feel like a cheap sports car, and it's like new with only 17" Cobra wheels on it and 30k on the clock. It handles like crap in my opinion

Well, I bet the handling of the newer stang's isn't GREAT, compared to other stuff.. But it sure is a lot better then my '88 GT. In the '01 GT, I felt a lot safer at highers speeds. I could go really fast and feel safe in a curve that I would never even attempt in my '88... Know what I mean? My '88's suspension is just too loose, and it doesn't want to carve corners, it wants to spin out of control

How much would a decent setup cost? I don't want a full out racing package or anything just yet... I'm looking more for something that would help me compete with euro/japanese imports on the auto-x track, and I will upgrade and improve it as time goes on

 

[Desert Stallion]

Being a straight-liner an not knowing crap about carving corners, I can tell you that to keep up with most of the modern import trash out there you're looking at probably an easy grand in parts, more in labor.

Figure you're going to need at least good shocks/struts, Bilstein's or Koni's, and some better springs, Eibach's or H&R's, followed by battle boxes and new LCA's, probably UCA's while you're at it, subframe connectors, front and rear strut tower braces, a g-load brace, etc.

If you wanted to really go all out, then I'd say front and rear coil-overs with a tubular front suspension setup and a rear torque arm and panhard bar, plus an integrated roll cage that connected subframes and the rear tower brace. Plus welding seams and rocker panel enforcements, blah blah blah.


But what do I know, I'm just a straight-liner.

 

[Michael Yount]

Dangalang - there's been a lot of talk so far about suspension components. However, they won't do you near as much good if you hang them on the 'flexi-flier' stock Fox uni-body. Anything you can do to seriously stiffen the platform will help. There are braces and subframe connectors which help a great deal. A properly tied in roll cage takes unibody stiffness to another level -- if you can sacrifice the interior space. If you go that route, be certain it's properly padded anywhere someone's head could contact it - bare skull in contact with chrome-moly steel can kill you at about 8 mph. Biggest single improvement you can make is tires - they are the contact point with the road. All the suspension in the world has nothing to work with if you don't have the right tires. Hang around the road courses and autocross tracks for a while - you'll see what works. The 17 and 18" packages look great - however, the 15 and 16" combos can usually be significantly lighter in weight - and that reduces vehicle weight as well as rotational inertia and unsprung weight. With a live axle you need all the reduction in unsprung weight you can get. In all the wheel/tire tests I've ever seen, the 15 and 16" combos are actually quicker on the track -- assuming comparable compound/section width tires are used. Anything you can do to improve front/rear weight distribution will help a great deal. Battery relocation, aluminum engine components (heads, radiator, etc.), front cross member replacement are a few of the things that will reduce weight overall and at the front of the car. Those changes help handling, stopping and acceleration. Lastly, if the car's gonna see track time, you better do something to shore up the braking as well. Stainless lines and the proper pads are a minimum for autocross; road course is probably also gonna require larger rotors/calipers up front so that heat can be disapated more quickly. Having all that new-found cornering capacity won't be much fun if the slower-cornering guy out brakes you into every corner, and passes you back.

I wouldn't go as far as my buddy Stangbear ("Our '79-'93's can be made to handle as good as any world class sports car on earth, if set up right"). But the fox bodies can be made to handle quite respectably if you do your homework and you've got the checkbook. The folks others recommended will help you get it right - Griggs, M&M. Most of all - have fun with it.

 

[Desert Stallion]

I swears I said somethin' about them there cages that tie into them subframe thingy's.

 

[Michael Yount]

No doubt - I was just elaboratin'! You get credit - I'll record it right now....

 

[somersdp]

You have gotten everything as far as advice in this thread that you need. If a great handling car is your goal, then get started and making your series of modification list on your napkin and call it early Christmas!!(lol)

 

[Red86]

You have gotten everything as far as advice in this thread that you need. If a great handling car is your goal, then get started and making your series of modification list on your napkin and call it early Christmas!!(lol)

What is wrong with your guys cars?! Oh man!

My 86 is one of the meanest handling rides I've ever driven.... sure, it wants to spin the F$@# out all the time, but with the 16" michelin's I put on it, it doesnt just "go sideways"...theres a 'feel' it gets for the road that lets you predict and cope with it adequately.

I have taken my car completely sideways at like 85 kmph's on a highway once; it wasn't totally intentional, but I should've known the speed I was going would've resulted in something. Throttled through it and just straightened it out, very satisfying.

Not very safe street driving

Anyway, I hope you can get your car set up right. Mine got handling great when I put in brand new struts/shocks (not even bilstiens, they are sensatracs.)

I don't have a brace or anything....no subframes...so hopefully those really make 'er a lil more solid!

Good luck with that car.

PS. lighten it up! take out all your sound deadener and as much of the unnecessary crap on your car that you can. Get rid of that spare tire, and just get AMA. They'll even come get you if your wrapped around a pole.

-Kr.

 

[stangbear427]

You have just emphasised one of Michael Younts main soapbox topics- the most important part of a good handling car (besides the skill of the driver) is what connects it to the road: the tires. Their quality and condition make all the difference in the world. When I put some good tires on my '84 GT, I though it was awsome. I did all kinds of stupid things in that car with all the confidence in the world in my Mustang GT stock suspension. Ignorance, they say, is bliss.

Another point that gets raised a lot these days is the fact that on the AutoX, 15"-16" wheels will net better times than 17"-18" wheels will. However, there is one other factor with wheels to consider- stepping up to a 17" wheel gives you the option to instal a braking system that is far more track worthy than anything that will fit in a 16" wheel. On a competitive track car, brakes are just as important as horsepower. You'll have to decide what your compromise will be based on your priorities and where you want the car to shine.

How much would a decent setup cost? I don't want a full out racing package or anything just yet... I'm looking more for something that would help me compete with euro/japanese imports on the auto-x track, and I will upgrade and improve it as time goes on

If you want to whup on imports and run with Europeans, it isn't going to be a cheap project. You can get into a reasonably competitive setup for about $2000 in parts. That isn't to say you need to spend that much to have a good handling car, but you said you want to compete, not get your teeth kicked in. You can work your way up to and beyond that point, if you pick your parts carefully with a plan and install parts you can build on. To be broken down, you could be more financially conscious by going this route:
1) Get some goood tires on there!
2) Stiffen the chassis: FULL length subs, STB, KMB, etc.
3) Improve rear suspension: most of the bad habits the fox platform exhibits at both the rear and front of the car can be tuned out by "fixing" the rear suspension with the proper spring rates, proper/positive rear location, etc.
4) Improve front suspension:K-members, steering rack/solid shaft, etc.
5) Fine tune everything with weight distribution parts, brakes, anti-sway bars, bushings, etc. This will involve digital racing scales, coilovers, and lots of creativity. However, if everything was done right by the end of step 4, then you should already have a fantastic handling machine, built on a budget. Step five is when you are in love with the sport and are going all out. Of course, if you have more to spend you can skip right over packages and jump right into a Box, but that isn't what you sound like your planning. That being said, the most important thing in this whole thread, IMO, is this:
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