Aftermarket head question

Mxbadboy03 · Apr 22, 2019

Ok I’m building a 306 and I have dss E series 3cc flattop pistons I called them about questions on heads as I was looking at promaxx 180cc or a trickflow 11r and was told nether would work Bc the promaxx max heads have spread valve centers? This went way over my head and the 11r won’t work Bc the pistons don’t have enough valve relief for them Bc valve angle they suggest switching to sx or gsx piston or go to a 1.94 valve ether edelbrock or Windsor jr heads???? But they told me b4 I bought the E series they would work with 2.02 valve but here I am now asking for help

TOOLOW91 · Apr 22, 2019

Mxbadboy03 said:
Ok I’m building a 306 and I have dss E series 3cc flattop pistons I called them about questions on heads as I was looking at promaxx 180cc or a trickflow 11r and was told nether would work Bc the promaxx max heads have spread valve centers? This went way over my head and the 11r won’t work Bc the pistons don’t have enough valve relief for them Bc valve angle they suggest switching to sx or gsx piston or go to a 1.94 valve ether edelbrock or Windsor jr heads???? But they told me b4 I bought the E series they would work with 2.02 valve but here I am now asking for help

They aren’t giving you false info . Those pro maxx heads ( wouldn’t touch with a 10ft pole ) I believe are copy’s of the twisted wedge head . The 11r is a twisted wedge head as well . Neither of them have a standard valve degree angle . Valve size aside they are saying it will hit the piston

I’m sure afr , Edelbrock or even a high port would work being that your pistons seem to be cut for standard valve angle heads

Mxbadboy03 · Apr 22, 2019

The pistons r cut for a 2.02 valve and the promaxx heads are 20 degree valve angle 11r is 11/13 degree valve angle

TOOLOW91 · Apr 23, 2019

Mxbadboy03 said:
The pistons r cut for a 2.02 valve and the promaxx heads are 20 degree valve angle 11r is 11/13 degree valve angle

Well an 11r certainly is not going to work for you . As far as those Chinese castings you mentioned like I said I thought they were but I’m not familiar with them nor would I take a shot with them ever . Only way is to get the head and check ptv with clay .

I have 11r on my motor but I have custom twisted wedge specific diamond pistons in mine .

Mxbadboy03 · Apr 23, 2019

TOOLOW91 said:
Well an 11r certainly is not going to work for you . As far as those Chinese castings you mentioned like I said I thought they were but I’m not familiar with them nor would I take a shot with them ever . Only way is to get the head and check ptv with clay .

I have 11r on my motor but I have custom twisted wedge specific diamond pistons in mine .

Ok so do u think edelbrock performer rpm heads would be a better option? The guy just got me confused when he told me the pistons wouldn’t work with the heads Bc the 2.02 intake but when I ordered them was told they would and like the picture shows has pretty good size reliefs

CarMichael Angelo · Apr 23, 2019

It's not about valve size it's about where the valves are located in the head. Here's a little visual game for you that will help.
Stand up, stretch both hands out at you sides even with your shoulders like you did when you were a kid playing like you were a plane . ( you should do this in the privacy of your own home)
Standing like this,.....Your hands represent a standard vale angle orientation. Along the same line, both at the same angle basically, in a row.

Now...

Take a baby step forward, slightly twist each hand in opposite directions , and Turn at the waist a quarter turn.

Aw ohhh,..Your left hand is now forward of your right hand, and they are no longer on the same plane or angle compared to where they were before. Now,..if your hands were valves, they'd crash all into the reliefs cut in your standard Pistons because they are no longer in the right place.
So you have to get a head with a smaller valve, or a different piston altogether to prevent that.

Trick flow does this to move the valves away from the sides of the chamber, and to put them at a better angle that is more conducive to airflow, and in the case of the exhaust valve, more optimally placed for a better exhaust scavenging. ( at least they think it does)

My example is an over exaggeration of the angles and twist,..but maybe now you get the idea.

TOOLOW91 · Apr 23, 2019

Mxbadboy03 said:
Ok so do u think edelbrock performer rpm heads would be a better option? The guy just got me confused when he told me the pistons wouldn’t work with the heads Bc the 2.02 intake but when I ordered them was told they would and like the picture shows has pretty good size reliefs

Those would prob work or I’d lean toward a Vic jr head honestly

Mxbadboy03 · Apr 23, 2019

Just got off the phone with dss they say with the camshaft I’m going to use that edelbrock would be only safe bet for 2.02 would have to check good they advise me to back down to a 1.90 or 1.94 intake so guess I got to go that route

CarMichael Angelo · Apr 23, 2019

*sigh ......what does any of that mean?

You are blindly going down a rabbit hole. You do not understand what you're buying, nonetheless you're buying it anyway. What cam? And why did you choose it?
There is more to building an engine than just choosing a bunch of stuff from a parts catalog. If you trust DSS to advise you, then why not consider buying a complete engine from them? They've got a whole bunch of proven combos already sitting on a pallet just waiting for you to buy it.

All anybody needs to know about buying the wrong sht for an engine can be found out by a simple phone call to my cousin in Council Bluffs IA.

He'll tell you how he traded a complete 350 short block for a worn out 302 ( Chevrolet 302, because he had a hard on for the Z28 Camaro back in the day,.and z28's had 302's in them). He'll tell you how he put the biggest freakin cam he could find in that engine, and with only had a 3.08 gear set and a 2500 stall converter in a turbo 350, ended up with a car that took a half hour to get through the quarter mile.

Hell also tell you how ( because he didn't know jack about building engines) , he just didn't bother to put all of the oil galley plugs back in...and he'll go on to tell you that he couldn't figure out why the engine had zero oil pressure at start up.

Then he'll tell you that even after his cousin finally talked him into building a 396, he couldn't wait till the cousin came over to his house to install the timing set for him, and he'll tell you that he did it himself instead, and ( because he didn't know jack about building engines) put the dots on the timing set 180 degrees apart from each other... Then he'll tell you how after attempting to start that engine ( unsuccessfully) he bent every single valve in the head when they crashed into the Pistons.

Because he couldn't wait for his cousin to do it for him.

I could go on......But again,..you should get the gist of the story.

If you don't understand the stuff you're buying, then you are straight out wasting your money. Pay somebody to do this for you, or spend the time required to learn it before you buy it. After all, you may not have a cousin to help you, and you'll end up blowing up a whole bunch of sht in the meantime..

Just ask my cousin from Iowa.

Mxbadboy03 · Apr 24, 2019

CarMichael Angelo said:
*sigh ......what does any of that mean?

You are blindly going down a rabbit hole. You do not understand what you're buying, nonetheless you're buying it anyway. What cam? And why did you choose it?
There is more to building an engine than just choosing a bunch of stuff from a parts catalog. If you trust DSS to advise you, then why not consider buying a complete engine from them? They've got a whole bunch of proven combos already sitting on a pallet just waiting for you to buy it.

All anybody needs to know about buying the wrong sht for an engine can be found out by a simple phone call to my cousin in Council Bluffs IA.

He'll tell you how he traded a complete 350 short block for a worn out 302 ( Chevrolet 302, because he had a hard on for the Z28 Camaro back in the day,.and z28's had 302's in them). He'll tell you how he put the biggest freakin cam he could find in that engine, and with only had a 3.08 gear set and a 2500 stall converter in a turbo 350, ended up with a car that took a half hour to get through the quarter mile.

Hell also tell you how ( because he didn't know jack about building engines) , he just didn't bother to put all of the oil galley plugs back in...and he'll go on to tell you that he couldn't figure out why the engine had zero oil pressure at start up.

Then he'll tell you that even after his cousin finally talked him into building a 396, he couldn't wait till the cousin came over to his house to install the timing set for him, and he'll tell you that he did it himself instead, and ( because he didn't know jack about building engines) put the dots on the timing set 180 degrees apart from each other... Then he'll tell you how after attempting to start that engine ( unsuccessfully) he bent every single valve in the head when they crashed into the Pistons.

Because he couldn't wait for his cousin to do it for him.

I could go on......But again,..you should get the gist of the story.

If you don't understand the stuff you're buying, then you are straight out wasting your money. Pay somebody to do this for you, or spend the time required to learn it before you buy it. After all, you may not have a cousin to help you, and you'll end up blowing up a whole bunch of sht in the meantime..

Just ask my cousin from Iowa.

No u are wrong Bc this is not my first engine but cam is recommended by lunita Bc what I’m doing and cam Isn’t really that big it’s the stage 2 voodoo I was simply asking Bc I was told 2.02 valve would work then got a email back saying they wouldn’t unless I run a edelbrock head

CarMichael Angelo · Apr 24, 2019

Mxbadboy03 said:
No u are wrong Bc this is not my first engine but cam is recommended by lunita Bc what I’m doing and cam Isn’t really that big it’s the stage 2 voodoo I was simply asking Bc I was told 2.02 valve would work then got a email back saying they wouldn’t unless I run a edelbrock head

It's "because". Its " you", its "are" and It's "Lunati."
If you have to type out whole words like edelbrock and voodoo, typing out the whole word "because" and the really easy 3 letter ones aren't going to take you any longer to make your point...
And if you can't even spell the name of the company you got the cam from...instructions may be a bit difficult.

I made my statement based on your own words. You couldn't comprehend that a twisted wedge valve orientation wouldn't work with the inline valve reliefs cut into your pistons. You said " that went way over your head". And later conversations talking to the tech guy confuses you when he tries to explain that you may have a piston to valve interference issue with a 2.02 valve, and is now recommending a smaller valve head.
If you have all of this experience building engines. You'd understand all of the reasons that these guys are telling you this, and not have to come onto a forum asking what the hell they mean. You'd know that piston to valve clearance is a thing that you have to check, and that your pistons can be modified to add the needed clearance even if there's a fitment issue. You'd know that a tech guy isn't going to recommend a " too big" valve combo, so that you can come back to him later and and say " You said it would fit " when it doesn't.
So they go conservative with their recommendations instead......but you got this.

90sickfox · Apr 24, 2019

Do you know what your piston to deck clearance is ?

Everything comes into account including the thickness of the head gasket you're using.

The voodoo cams really sound good. I'm not knocking what you're doing. Research is key my man.

Seems like you'd do better to change the pistons based on the heads and camshaft you choose. Mismatched parts never have good results. You've got to think about the air turbulence because of the piston reliefs and valve mismatch. In some cases it can cause the flame front to shift....loosing power.

If you wanted to upgrade you'd have to change everything again....

CarMichael Angelo · Apr 24, 2019

90sickfox said:
Do you know what your piston to deck clearance is ?

Everything comes into account including the thickness of the head gasket you're using.

The voodoo cams really sound good. I'm not knocking what you're doing. Research is key my man.

Seems like you'd do better to change the pistons based on the heads and camshaft you choose. Mismatched parts never have good results. You've got to think about the air turbulence because of the piston reliefs and valve mismatch. In some cases it can cause the flame front to shift....loosing power.

If you wanted to upgrade you'd have to change everything again....

Or just buy the whole thing done from somebody who knows.

a91what · Apr 24, 2019

I have used an E series piston with a standard valve angle head with a 2.02 valve up to 600 lift with healthy duration.

The ProMAXX heads are actually pretty nice, I have a set ready to go on my 393w.. I was very surprised at the quality and finish, I have seen some very nice heads and some complete junk and would give these a 8/10. Still going to have a shop check them out before they go on the engine.

CarMichael Angelo · Apr 24, 2019

a91what said:
I have used an E series piston with a standard valve angle head with a 2.02 valve up to 600 lift with healthy duration.

The ProMAXX heads are actually pretty nice, I have a set ready to go on my 393w.. I was very surprised at the quality and finish, I have seen some very nice heads and some complete junk and would give these a 8/10. Still going to have a shop check them out before they go on the engine.

I'll bet that if anything is bad with those heads, itll be the guides..hopefully not like the guides on Chinee wastegates.

The engine will smoke from day 1 if that's the case.

Boostedpimp · Apr 24, 2019

The 11r and promax 180 are two different heads... one is 11 degree head with the intake valves relocated while the other is standard 20 degree head.

I would imagine you could just have the valve pockets adjusted on the pistons you already have in hand rather then dropping down to a 1.94 not 100% but i'd look into that route if it were me

a91what · Apr 24, 2019

Promaxx 180cc. Pictures taken right after they were removed from the box.

Mxbadboy03 · Apr 24, 2019

CarMichael Angelo said:
Or just buy the whole thing done from somebody who knows.

Well first off they stated b4 buying everything would work then got email saying no so that’s why I was confused and never did I say I had all this experience but never did I say this was my first build ether I know about checking ptv and also not using a flat tap cam it’s hydro roller deck on motor is at 0 had it done while at machine shop going for 10 to 10:5.1 compression depending on heads and if we mill the heads

a91what · Apr 24, 2019

The valve reliefs in the E series are fairly large, however they do not extend to the very edge of the piston. The promaxx has the valves spread apart to allow very large valves on there shocker seires head. It does not require a special piston, but does necessitate a more aggressive piston to be used. The E series is meant for mild rebuild applications. with a zero deck and a .42 gasket with a 60cc camber you should be around 10:1

Mxbadboy03 · Apr 24, 2019

Yea I was looking at the promaxx maxx series head the motor is going to be na on a 95 gt and not going full race just strong street car see the strip few times a year

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