Alignment drift?

[Cdaniel]

Any ideas why the alignment keeps going out on my 66 Fastback? Namely the toe adjustment? Details: V8 car, manual steering, all new suspension parts, less than 15k miles, still check out tight and good condition. Maverick spindles and disk brakes. No nasty potholes or curb whacks by the driver.
1st alignment was probably not quite right and was wearing the inside edges if the tires. Too much toe out.
2nd try was better but seemed to still wear the tires.
3rd try at different shop was good.
Now, after replacing a P.O.S. made in Mexico wheel bearing, the tires squeal (scrub) and dart around when accelerating and the car lifts the nose. Taking measurements when lifting the car shows the toe changing drastically (1/2"). I tried to compensate a little with a small toe adjustment but now it's back to the 1st problem.

Did supporting the car at the jacking points cause alignment changes?

 

[rbohm]

the adjusters on the steering rods are the culprit, or more likely the clamps on the adjusters. these adjusters are only made of sheetmetal. good aftermarket adjusters are available and use jam nuts to lock things in place.

 

[geostang351]

The toe does not effect "tilting" of tire, camber does. I think this is your problem as you say the inside of the tire is wearing out. The 65's used shims at the upper control arm between the arm and shock tower to control camber (tilting of wheel). You question is confusing as to what exactly is moving/not moving, the toe or camber. I could be wrong as well. Can you shed a little more light on the subject?

 

[brianj5600]

Bump steer with those spindles is the problem. The steering arm on those spindles are in a different location causing toe to change as the suspension moves. I'm not sure how hard it is to correct on early Mustangs though.

 

[Cdaniel]

I'm not mistaking camber for toe. Yes camber angle will effect tire edge
wear, but toe will also. Excessive toe in can make the tires appear tilted
also. I'm comfortable with camber settings from the last alignment sheet
(don't have them at the moment). The toe setting last time was a big change
from negative to positive, which would account for tire wear on the inside
edges. But it was at a positive setting the time before. Which is why I'm
wondering what is changing. At first I chalked up the changes to the new
components settling as well as the unibody after being on jacks and without
a drivetrain for an extended period. I figure by now that should be settled
in. I did have to replace the strut rod bushings in short order when it was
put on the road. Crap rubber I guess, they're urethane now. I'm wondering
if the part quality is lacking somewhere else now.

The tie rod adjuster idea is a good thought but I cant see this thing
vibrating loose. I'll check into some better ones though. The driver side
has very little adjustment left compared to the other side, which is
curious. As for the bump steer from different geometry in the Maverick
spindles, I'm all ears. That makes some sense, though I hadn't heard
anything about it in my research for making the swap. Did I make a bad call
using those parts? The car does want to wander when it hits bumps on long
sweeping corners. I've attributed that to poor alignments up to this point.
The steering angle changes when the suspension cycles look pretty drastic
though.

I didn't drive it before it was torn down so I don't have any reference to
the stock handling characteristics. I'm not the primary driver either so I
only get reports from the wife and my occasional run around. She had no
idea the growl from that wheel bearing was a bad thing.

 

[65 fastback]

The car does want to wander when it hits bumps on long
sweeping corners. I've attributed that to poor alignments up to this point.
The steering angle changes when the suspension cycles look pretty drastic
though.

You've definately got a bumpsteer issue. I haven't seen specific posts on bumpsteer relating to Maverick spindles, but there is plenty of information on bumpsteer issues with Granada spindles when the car is lowered.

There are two (2) good kits out there to help you correct the problem:
ProMotorSports - bump steer kit - http://www.pro-motorsports.com/art-bump.asp
Baer Tracker, bump steer corrector - http://baer.com/cgi-bin/htmlos.exe/00850.3.424172795800025474

The Pro Motor Sports kit corrects a specific lowering dimension.
The Baer kit is adjustable and probably better suited to your needs.

Tim

 

[BobV]

Granada & Maverick spindles share the same geometry, hence the same bumpsteer problems.

 

[krash kendall]

In addition to what the others have noted, the urethane strut rod bushings don't flex or compress enough adding to the problem and raising the risk of bending or breakage. One member suggests urethane for the front bushing (tougher for braking pressures) and rubber on the rearward ones for flexabilty. I personally use the Moog rubber ones. They are an improved design over the originals.

 

[brianj5600]

http://corner-carvers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26792 This thread shows how toe changes on a 65 with 65 spindles and with 71 spindles, which I beleive has the same geomtry as a Maverick spindle. The pro motorsports kit is non adjustable and not designed to correct what is going on in your case. The Baer tracker is adjustable and according to the above link can get bumpsteer in line.

 

[302 coupe]

Are the tie rods parallel (or close to it) to the lower control arms? My 66 is lowered and has granada spindles and I have zero bumpsteer issues. If the car in your avatar is the one we're talking about, it doesn't look to be lowered much, if any, which makes me question if this is a typical bumpsteer issue.

 

[65 fastback]

Are the tie rods parallel (or close to it) to the lower control arms? My 66 is lowered and has granada spindles and I have zero bumpsteer issues. If the car in your avatar is the one we're talking about, it doesn't look to be lowered much, if any, which makes me question if this is a typical bumpsteer issue.

The more you upgrade your suspension and/or lower the car the more apparent bump steer will become. Low profile performance tires will really accentuate it. The description I quoted in my earlier post, is classic bumpsteer behavior. It could be other causes, but that's where I would start.

JMO,
Tim

 

[Cdaniel]

Well I think the bump steer issue makes the most sense. Those Baer parts look interesting. Any idea what a set goes for? I can't believe I hadn't run accross this info before I swapped in the Granada/Maverick stuff.

I guess I still would have done it though.

 

[Cdaniel]

Are the tie rods parallel (or close to it) to the lower control arms? My 66 is lowered and has granada spindles and I have zero bumpsteer issues. If the car in your avatar is the one we're talking about, it doesn't look to be lowered much, if any, which makes me question if this is a typical bumpsteer issue.

Tie rods are parallel with the center link. It is the car in the avatar and is bone stock under the front with the exception of the Maverick parts. You can watch what happens when you lift the car a little from the center. The spindles travel in a different arc than the ties rods effectivly making them longer as the wheels go down and increasing toe in.

 

[65 fastback]

Mustang Depot sells them - http://www.mustangdepot.com/OnLineCatalog/Steering/baer-tracker.htm

Also, note that your cookie cutter alignment shop may not be up to the task of adjusting these properly. You will need to seek out a shop that is a little more cutting edge to get these set up right.

Tim

 

[Cdaniel]

Mustang Depot sells them - http://www.mustangdepot.com/OnLineCatalog/Steering/baer-tracker.htm

Also, note that your cookie cutter alignment shop may not be up to the task of adjusting these properly. You will need to seek out a shop that is a little more cutting edge to get these set up right.

Tim

Thanks. Right you are about finding a shop that has techs without pimples and actually know that there are front suspensions that don't have struts

So what about the stock fact that my tie rods have different end tapers now with the non stock spindles? Do I need to go directly to Baer?

 

[65 fastback]

So what about the stock fact that my tie rods have different end tapers now with the non stock spindles? Do I need to go directly to Baer?

Hahaha, that's what I'm trying to figure out in another thread - http://forums.stangnet.com/showthread.php?t=606195 - as I'm currently getting ready to replace my stock spindles with '70 spindles to fit my new Global West Pro-Vintage disc brake kit.

Tim

 

[Cdaniel]

Hahaha, that's what I'm trying to figure out in another thread - http://forums.stangnet.com/showthread.php?t=606195 - as I'm currently getting ready to replace my stock spindles with '70 spindles to fit my new Global West Pro-Vintage disc brake kit.

Tim

I think since Baer just happens to be located in my neck of the woods, I'll make an inquiry tomorrow. I'll let you know what I find out.

 

[65 fastback]

You got to love this forum, the wealth of information and willingness to share is outstanding.

Tim

 

[Cdaniel]

Ok, I spoke with a guy at Baer. He said I should just order the kit for a 70 Mustang, taper on the knuckle end is the same as a Granada.
The kits only come with a sleeve and the tie rod end on the knuckle. Sounds like it may work on your application Tim.

From the looks of it, the tie rod end gets spaced away from the knuckle changing point were the arcs of travel intersect. Given that my tie rods are parallel now, I'm wondering if angling them up would be a good thing.

 

[krash kendall]

You may find this article helpfull.

http://www.sunflower.com/~vervaecke/our_story.htm

EDIT: Also, your inner UCA shaft may be binding, holding the front after gunning it.