Anyone ever heard of a starter losing ground??

[accidentprone86]

Out of thought with my starter; This defies all my knowledge!

Here is the problem.
My starter will not turn over. The battery has a full charge (12.4v). The solenoid fires just fine when the key is turned. The voltage at the solenoid reads 11.6 volts with the solenoid open. Everything checks out up top but the starter will not turn over. It is a new remanufactured unit, i replaced it two days ago after I had the problem with the old starter.
The voltage on the starter reads 210 mill volts; this is with the negative test probe grounded on the starter. Can the starter somehow lose its ground? It should be grounded through the flywheel housing and the mounting bolts. The motor Is grounded and runs if the car is push started.

If starter has a ground then the only other thing this leads to be the wire between the solenoid and the starter. There are no visible breaks in the insulation and I do not hear it arcing to anything. I tested the voltage at the half waypoint of the wire. It read 11.5 volts with the voltmeter grounded to the battery terminal and the solenoid open.

What do you guys think? This defies all of my knowledge. I don’t see how the starter could lose ground or how a wire just could go bad.

 

[jrichker]

Check out the section of this tech note on voltage drops arcoss connections. You will find your problem.

Here's a checklist:

Since some of the tests will bypass the safety interlocks, make sure that the car is in neutral and the parking brake is set. Becoming a pancake isn’t part of the repair process…

Check battery, terminal connections, ground, starter relay switch (also known as solenoid) and starter in that order.

A voltmeter is handy if you are familiar with how to use it to find bad connections. Measure the voltage drop across a connection: more than .5 volts across a connection indicates a problem.
See http://www.fluke.com/application_notes/automotive/circuit.asp?AGID=1&SID=103 for help

1.) Will the car start if it is jumped? Then clean battery terminals and check battery.

2.) Check the battery to engine block ground, and the ground behind the engine to the firewall.

3.) Jump the big terminals on the starter relay next to the battery with a screwdriver - watch out for the sparks! If the engine cranks, the starter and power wiring is good. The starter relay is also known as a starter solenoid.

4.) Then pull the small push on connector (red wire) off the starter relay (Looks like it is stuck on a screw). Then jump between the screw and the terminal that is connected to the battery. If it starts, the relay is good and your problem is in the rest of the circuit.

5.) Remember to check the ignition switch, neutral safety switch on auto trans and the clutch safety switch on manual trans cars. If they are good, then you have wiring problems. See http://www.autozone.com/images/cds/gif/large/0900823d80195963.gif for 88-90 year cars .OR see http://www.autozone.com/images/cds/gif/large/0900823d80195964.gif for 91-93 year cars. See http://www.autozone.com/servlet/UiB..._us/0900823d/80/1d/db/3c/0900823d801ddb3c.jsp for 94-95 model cars.

6.) The starter may be hung, loosen up the bolts that hold it on, and give it a good whack with a big hammer. Tighten up the bolts and try again.

7.) If that doesn't work, use a jumper cable from the positive lead on the battery direct to the starter post where the big wire from the relay connects. If it cranks then, it is the power wire from the relay gone bad. This will be hard to do, since there isn't much room to do it.

8.) Pull the starter and take it to Autozone or Pep Boys and have them test it. Starter fails test, then replace it. If you got this far, the starter is probably bad.

 

[1SLO306]

did u get it from auto zone?? sometimes u have to get a couple before u get a good one.

 

[crazypete]

Actually I've had slight corrosion to the + terminal give me a no-turnover situation. I sanded the terminal and it kicked right in.

The factory starters sometimes have the plunger mechanism on top of the housing go bad. Thats happened to me before. Smack the housing near that bump once you have exhausted all other options and you might be surprised that it starts working.

 

[accidentprone86]

Ok I have tested everything.
The starter is good, I had auto zone test it and a I jumped it with my battery.
The battery is good, tested at autozone.

Here is the thing.
WITHOUT the wire connected to the starter from the solenoid; With the solenoid open The end of the wire reads 12.1 volts with the ground on the starter mounting bolt. With the solenoid open and WITHOUT the wire connected to the starter the fuel pump does not prime.

But WITH the wire that runs from the solenoid to the starter connected to the starter, Anytime the Solenoid is open I read .2 volts at the end of the wire, the starter will not turn over. Also the fuel pump will prime as long as the solenoid is open. That is WITH the wire connected to the starter.

On the hot side of the solenoid I have the + cable from the battery, charge wire from alt, a green wire for the accessories, and the blue and black wires for the fuel pump. On the out side of the solenoid there is just the starter cable.

Please help me; this makes absolutely no sense to me. The motor will run if the car is push started so it must be grounded. Also the clutch switch works because I can activate the solenoid from inside the car when I turn the key with the clutch in.

PLEASE HELP! This is driving me crazy!

 

[jrichker]

have you gone through the checklist? Including the voltage drop checks as described in the checklist?

What are the wire colors and wire sizes and locations you are talking about. Describing the starter solenoid without them is very confusing to read.

 

[bsedwebt70-5.0]

my old starter was just fine until I rebuilt the engine and installed it today - then it started the car just fine a couple times - then it just went click - hit it with a hammer and it started the car again like it should but let out a sizable spark - took the starter out and replaced it with a known good spare I had and all is fine now - intermittant solinoid problem down at the 1993 small starter was my problem - thus the sparks....

 

[craig fredriksen]

Out of thought with my starter; This defies all my knowledge!

Here is the problem.
My starter will not turn over. The battery has a full charge (12.4v). The solenoid fires just fine when the key is turned. The voltage at the solenoid reads 11.6 volts with the solenoid open. Everything checks out up top but the starter will not turn over. It is a new remanufactured unit, i replaced it two days ago after I had the problem with the old starter.
The voltage on the starter reads 210 mill volts; this is with the negative test probe grounded on the starter. Can the starter somehow lose its ground? It should be grounded through the flywheel housing and the mounting bolts. The motor Is grounded and runs if the car is push started.

If starter has a ground then the only other thing this leads to be the wire between the solenoid and the starter. There are no visible breaks in the insulation and I do not hear it arcing to anything. I tested the voltage at the half waypoint of the wire. It read 11.5 volts with the voltmeter grounded to the battery terminal and the solenoid open.

What do you guys think? This defies all of my knowledge. I don’t see how the starter could lose ground or how a wire just could go bad.

I found the answer the last year. The starter is grounded to the chassis. Similar metals lose effectiveness over time through corrosion. If you tried to lift 1000 Lbs., you would exert force and have no results. By the same token, the starter shows voltage and current but not enough if they actually measured it. I have fixed 2 cars by buying a $5 lawn tractor negative cable from Walmart and attached it to the battery and a bolt on the engine block. Problem was solved!!!! It did take 2 hours to find that solution on you tube but I found it and felt it important enough to sign up and log in to share it since it is now not only Dodge having this issue. If you think about it, the manufacturer probably saves $10 per car not having a wire ground the starter which translates to millions of dollars. I found this thread because my buddies Mariner has that issue. Looks like they are all doing it now. For $5 dollars and less than 5 minutes, what do you have to lose!

 

[KRUISR]

I was going to say is the ground wire from engine block to chassis good. Or if you said you just replaced the engine, did you forget to re-install?

Starter will ground through the engine block. Usually a ground from driver side head to firewall and heavier gauge ground wire from water pump cover near oil filter to negative battery post.

 

[redNfast]

KRUISR,
Makes a very good point, the reason that can happen. Motor mounts have rubber inserts/cushion, block needs (must) have a ground to chassis .

Assuming the car has been starting and running with the new motor installed I offer the following to chew on.

You wrote they tested the starter, are you saying they spun the motor? There are 2 things going on with a starter. 1 a relay (solenoid ) 2 starter motor.

If solenoid goes bad, it can click, but not pass the current from the battery cable too the starter motor. Inside the solenoid there a 2 contacts (pins). One side has the battery cable attached to it. The other pin is the starter motor .

The solenoid is actually an electro magnet, with a rod going thru it. Think T , top of T connects the 2 pins when energized. pulls down connecting the 2 pins describe above (click).

Routing the current from the battery cable, to the starter motor, cranking the car.

The T because of internal arcing, open and closing. Can develop pitting, or carbon deposits bad enough. As to not allow the current to flow between the external battery connected to the solenoid and the internal starter motor connection (pins)

 

[General karthief]

He responded to a 14 year old thread
That's ok, happens all the time.

 

[KRUISR]

I get caught on those all the time. I read a thread and then similar ones are listed at the bottom. Most are many years old. It lists when they were started, not when last edited so it is sometimes hard to tell when they are current. IF possible, listing both when started and last edited dates would be helpful.

 

[General karthief]

Some will have edit dates, you have to select not to have the date posted.
At least I can see them but I'm special

 

[redNfast]

He responded to a 14 year old thread
That's ok, happens all the time.

Who knows could still be working on it .............. know how that goes > round - 2- it