at last my Dyno Numbers for trick flow heads

fast97gt said:

hey hotstang, im talkin the the tf topend kit verses any s/c kit out there. the s/c kit would also need supporting mods also. KIT FOR KIT

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I disagree with hotstang about these cars not making power NA; these Trickflow heads are proving that it can be done, and OP, those are some sweet numbers you made. Keep us updated on the track times.

But I do agree with him that FI is cheaper and will yield more power than NA, 99.9 times out of 100. Since you want to compare kit for kit, let's make sure we don't throw any used parts in there.

These prices are the CHEAPEST I could find with a few minutes of searching. I'd say they are pretty accurate.

Supercharger

Vortech Mongoose Kit-$3799 last time I looked. Can't find the link right now. I found a few similar kits in the $4100-$4400 range. And that is a COMPLETE kit, tune included, ready to go, going to make, at a bare minimum, 350 on the wheels. So we'll say $4500 for a S/C, brand new, complete intercooled kit with LOTS of potential.



Naturally Aspirated

Trickflow heads-$2100 Trick Flow 4.6/5.4L Twisted Wedge 185 Track Heat Cylinder Heads [TFS-51900004-M44] : Lethal Performance, Performance parts for Ford Mustangs

Head install kit-$120 Ford Racing 96-04 SOHC Mustang Cylinded Head Changing Kit [M-6067-D46] : Lethal Performance, Performance parts for Ford Mustangs

Aftermarket cams of some sort-$590 Comp Cams Stage II Xtreme Energy XE270AH Camshafts (96-04 4.6L 2V) at AmericanMuscle.com - Free Shipping!

Adjustable cam gears-$250 Comp Cams 4.6/5.4L 2V Adjustable Cam Gears at LRS - Same Day Shipping! I'm assuming this is necessary. It would be on my car if I put a set of cams in.

Long tubes-$370 (el-cheapos) MAC : Lethal Performance, Performance parts for Ford Mustangs

Matching midpipe-$150 1996-04 Mustang Gt/Cobra Off Road H-Pipe For Long Tube Headers by BBK at LRS - Same Day Shipping!

Throttle body and plenum-$270 BBK 78mm Mustang Throttle Intake (96-04 GT) at AmericanMuscle.com - Free Shipping!

Programmer-$380 SCT SF3/X3 Power Flash Mustang Custom Tuner w/ 3 Free Custom Tunes - 3rd Generation SCT XCalibrator - FREE SHIPPING! Was required by every tuner in my area.

Tune-$300 Was the cheapest I was quoted in my area.

Total-$4530



So the two are equal in price as far as parts go using the numbers I found. The NA car might make 330 rwhp. The supercharged car will make, at a minimum, 350 rwhp, with a lot more power under the curve. It also will not sacrifice driveability or fuel mileage.

We also ignored an import part of the pricing: install. Anyone with some very basic mechanics skills and tools can install the blower, probably in less than a day. I installed my own blower, pretty easily at that, and it wasn't even a complete kit. The heads, cams, headers, all that jazz...gonna take several days (at least), and a vast majority of us Mustang fanatics aren't going to be able to do it ourselves. I might could, but I don't trust myself enough when dealing the the internals of a motor. Install for the NA kit could easily exceed $2000.

Also forgotten is the upgradeability (yes, I made that word up). The NA car is at its limits. The only thing left to do would be a new short block with higher compression and/or a stroker kit. We're talking big dollars here, SEVERAL thousand at least, all in the name of, what, 400 rwhp? For the blower, a simple pulley change could yield 40, 50, 60+ horsepower. Not to mention the fact that the blown car is bone stock; an offroad midpipe, CAI, and TB/plenum would probably gain 30 horsepower at a minimum. Paired with a new pulley, the blown car could make 450 rwhp pretty easily. This would have to be tuned for of course, but that's not the point. The point is that the blown car can make power far above what is acceptable to the stock internals. The NA car can't say that without a serious motor build and lots of money, all in the name of breaking even with a stock, base-model blown car.

Bottom line: do what you want to. It's your car, and none of us online have a damn thing to do with it. But the fact is that you can't compare dollar for dollar naturally aspirated to forced induction. FI will win out every single time. But if naturally aspirated floats your boat, it floats mine, too.

</novel>

Hey hotstang why don't you go and do a little research on the new tfs heads. Then you will understand why he is making the numbers he is.

crazystang25 said:

Hey hotstang why don't you go and do a little research on the new tfs heads. Then you will understand why he is making the numbers he is.

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I probably should and will do that because I haven't.


And fyi I went the NA route before the blower and all the stuff because I blew a plug. I did the install myself, even the degree.....and I just don't see 99% of people doing it, especially the degree. It makes the whole NA sooo expensive when you figure you have to pay someone to do it.

there is a long thread on here and modularfords.com about the new trickflow heads.

thats even worse since its in STD, my car made 336/312 corrected!

i really think the car should make more! i want to see some track times!

98COBRA281 said:

thats even worse since its in STD, my car made 336/312 corrected!

i really think the car should make more! i want to see some track times!

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thats a nice lookin gt in the pic, never been much on the 94-98 models but there are a few that i have seen that look pretty good.

hotstang_46 said:

I probably should and will do that because I haven't.


And fyi I went the NA route before the blower and all the stuff because I blew a plug. I did the install myself, even the degree.....and I just don't see 99% of people doing it, especially the degree. It makes the whole NA sooo expensive when you figure you have to pay someone to do it.

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Take this from me, all those numbers you have seen posted in this thread are EASILY doable with the TF heads. I had a customer with TF heads and my CMS Stage 2 N/A cams (same cams you have) make 355rwhp through an AUTO with a STOCK intake. The TF heads alone have shown numerous times to add ~40rwhp alone. If that was a 5 speed car you are looking at closer to 375rwhp. That is not an agressive set-up by any means.

heres what ive found from summit racing Trick Flow Specialties TFS-K519-380-375 - Trick Flow® Twisted Wedge® Top-End Engine Kits for Ford 4.6/5.4L 2V - Overview - SummitRacing.com look at notes at the bottom, 380hp/375ft/lbs tq. that is a complete kit, from gaskets to bolts to chains. then another 4-600 bucks for tuning. so my price is WAY cheaper then a F/I kit. "even" if i need L/Ts thats still way cheaper then the F/I kits there again.

hotstang_46 said:

what???? what about the supporting mods? What power you think your going to make without them?

heads assembled $1750
Cams $600
Head Gaskets $100
Headers $500
PP TB and Plenum $200
Tuner $350
H pipe $250
Exhaust$500
Long tubes $500
Tune$400

Not to mention Most anyone can put on a supercharger but what about these parts? 95% will pay for the Header install, Head install, and degree the cams. So add another $1000 for that, if not more with the degree


TOTAL $6250

and your comparing that to a base supercharger kit for 3g's that needs none of those supporting mods to make that power? How exactly do you consider that getting ready to outwin.


Maybe I'm wrong here folks. But I've seen lots of stangs....And lots on the dyno. Not just my car or some buddies car. That number is considerably higher than I've ever seen in person. And to suggest that someone did 375rwhp with a bolt ons is funny. That's simply not going to happen. Your not going to take a patriot car like mine, fox lake, or whatever heads you may have and add 35-60 MORE hp just by swapping to them. Simply not going to happen.

In cases like the OP who put down way more power than I've personally ever seen on a simlair modded car I can only say that the chances are higher we have something dyno / operator related to those numbers than the chance that this car is a complete freak defying anything else I've ever seen by such a large margin.

Besides.....Post back up with a track time and then we'll know the real story, I'll be interested to hear if you'll track the car. Dyno's can vary greatly, track times don't lie

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since when does it cost $1750 bux for exhaust? lol

hotstang_46 said:

what???? what about the supporting mods? What power you think your going to make without them?

heads assembled $1750
Cams $600
Head Gaskets $100
Headers $500
PP TB and Plenum $200
Tuner $350
H pipe $250
Exhaust$500
Long tubes $500
Tune$400

Not to mention Most anyone can put on a supercharger but what about these parts? 95% will pay for the Header install, Head install, and degree the cams. So add another $1000 for that, if not more with the degree


TOTAL $6250

and your comparing that to a base supercharger kit for 3g's that needs none of those supporting mods to make that power? How exactly do you consider that getting ready to outwin.


Maybe I'm wrong here folks. But I've seen lots of stangs....And lots on the dyno. Not just my car or some buddies car. That number is considerably higher than I've ever seen in person. And to suggest that someone did 375rwhp with a bolt ons is funny. That's simply not going to happen. Your not going to take a patriot car like mine, fox lake, or whatever heads you may have and add 35-60 MORE hp just by swapping to them. Simply not going to happen.

In cases like the OP who put down way more power than I've personally ever seen on a simlair modded car I can only say that the chances are higher we have something dyno / operator related to those numbers than the chance that this car is a complete freak defying anything else I've ever seen by such a large margin.

Besides.....Post back up with a track time and then we'll know the real story, I'll be interested to hear if you'll track the car. Dyno's can vary greatly, track times don't lie

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i thought LTs were headers? and tf 75mm tb and upper plenum are like $250, the cams come in the heads, the gaskets are in the kit, and the kit has a lot if extras.

Superchargers Vs. N/A

Blondes Vs. Brunetts


Both will give you a heck of a ride but once you've been with a Blonde for a while you begin to appriciate the brunett even more.

fast97gt said:

heres what ive found from summit racing Trick Flow Specialties TFS-K519-380-375 - Trick Flow® Twisted Wedge® Top-End Engine Kits for Ford 4.6/5.4L 2V - Overview - SummitRacing.com look at notes at the bottom, 380hp/375ft/lbs tq. that is a complete kit, from gaskets to bolts to chains. then another 4-600 bucks for tuning. so my price is WAY cheaper then a F/I kit. "even" if i need L/Ts thats still way cheaper then the F/I kits there again.

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$2900 + $700 minimum for tuning = $3600. I KNOW there are intercooled Vortech kits out there in that general price range. And once again, we are ignoring install prices and/or do-ability by the general enthusiast. And fuel mileage. And driveability.

380 engine horsepower equals a very liberal 325 rwhp. WAY short of a blower at 8-9 psi. And in real life, I seriously doubt that those heads and cams, with no other supporting mods, would break 300.

And while on that topic, don't we know better than to gauge horsepower numbers from manufacturers' estimates? If we did that, I would have gained 70 horsepower from from a Prochamber, throttle body, CAI, and UDPs. The OP has those heads, stage II Comp cams, full bolt-ons, and let's not forget as I did earlier, an $800 intake manifold, and made 340 rwhp. Don't get me wrong; that is awesome! I'm so glad that there are finally some options to make decent power NA on these 4.6s. But I have a NPI headed car with basic bolt ons (no long tubes) at 6ish pounds of boost that made 325 rwhp (through an auto) on the same type of dyno with the same correction factor as the OP. I spent ~$2200 TOTAL, and that is on a car with the inferior NPI heads. You do the math for power/dollar.

S&B said:

Superchargers Vs. N/A

Blondes Vs. Brunetts


Both will give you a heck of a ride but once you've been with a Blonde for a while you begin to appriciate the brunett even more.

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Haha, very well said.

fast97gt said:

i thought LTs were headers? and tf 75mm tb and upper plenum are like $250, the cams come in the heads, the gaskets are in the kit, and the kit has a lot if extras.

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Oh damn, you got me good bro. Gosh I feel like such an idiot how can I sleep tonight? I made a mistake in my thread I wrote out quickly. Damn.....burn on me!!! you got me dude.....congrats. I'm so ashamed.

if you did know it was a mistake and just felt like being mean your just an azz. Your life must suck to be an internet goon. If you didn't realize it was a mistake there's no hope in me explaining so I won't

fast97gt said:

heres what ive found from summit racing Trick Flow Specialties TFS-K519-380-375 - Trick Flow® Twisted Wedge® Top-End Engine Kits for Ford 4.6/5.4L 2V - Overview - SummitRacing.com look at notes at the bottom, 380hp/375ft/lbs tq. that is a complete kit, from gaskets to bolts to chains. then another 4-600 bucks for tuning. so my price is WAY cheaper then a F/I kit. "even" if i need L/Ts thats still way cheaper then the F/I kits there again.

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ummmmm. if you like manufacturer claimed hp your going to love this bad boy. Check it out, 54hp. (read the notes)

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Ford...ptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories



And furthermore. 99% of people as we already covered will not do a head install, cam degree by themselves. Let alone a header install. What do you think those cost? not cheap, not cheap at all. Besides, even if you did the install you still need more parts than the kit and LT's to extract that power. I don't see how anyone can argue that going NA will give more bang for the buck. NO WAY NO HOW not with anything that's out now at least.

Jim@CMS said:

Take this from me, all those numbers you have seen posted in this thread are EASILY doable with the TF heads. I had a customer with TF heads and my CMS Stage 2 N/A cams (same cams you have) make 355rwhp through an AUTO with a STOCK intake. The TF heads alone have shown numerous times to add ~40rwhp alone. If that was a 5 speed car you are looking at closer to 375rwhp. That is not an agressive set-up by any means.

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Good numbers! Can't wait to see what MPH it puts down at the track! Congrats!

Jim@CMS said:

Take this from me, all those numbers you have seen posted in this thread are EASILY doable with the TF heads. I had a customer with TF heads and my CMS Stage 2 N/A cams (same cams you have) make 355rwhp through an AUTO with a STOCK intake. The TF heads alone have shown numerous times to add ~40rwhp alone. If that was a 5 speed car you are looking at closer to 375rwhp. That is not an agressive set-up by any means.

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my point exactly, i to has seen it first hand.

It seems to me that he made a motor more efficient. If he were to add boost now he'd put down even better numbers because of the foundation he's laid down.

We can all argue about the ecconomy of it but in the end speed is money. If you want to go faster it's going to cost you more.

hotstang_46 said:

Maybe I'm wrong here folks. But I've seen lots of stangs....And lots on the dyno. Not just my car or some buddies car. That number is considerably higher than I've ever seen in person. And to suggest that someone did 375rwhp with a bolt ons is funny. That's simply not going to happen. Your not going to take a patriot car like mine, fox lake, or whatever heads you may have and add 35-60 MORE hp just by swapping to them. Simply not going to happen.

In cases like the OP who put down way more power than I've personally ever seen on a simlair modded car I can only say that the chances are higher we have something dyno / operator related to those numbers than the chance that this car is a complete freak defying anything else I've ever seen by such a large margin.

Besides.....Post back up with a track time and then we'll know the real story, I'll be interested to hear if you'll track the car. Dyno's can vary greatly, track times don't lie

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I concur, most of the shops I deal with are seeing about ~10RWHP gains with the TFS heads over well done PI heads on a combo like this. Logan Motorsports was the first to test 3 sets of TFS and find 8RWHP the biggest difference against his custom Livernois PI heads (and got roasted online for saying it). Change the graph in the opening picture to SAE and its ~330RWHP which is pretty close to a 233 duration cammed, TFS intaked, ported PI head motor in output. Some numbers I am seeing thrown around here make it sound like the TFS is making more power than a 4V head which I can assure you it is not.

tank_567 said:

looks like the dyno graph was set to standard, Im sure if it was set to SAE it would be down 5-15rwhp depending on the weather... There are a few shops out there that like to blow up customers numbers by doing this and its wrong. They should have given you SAE numbers.

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Plus a bazillion, get the SAE numbers, STD are always bloated higher.