Blower VS H/C/I

99FiveOh · Apr 16, 2007

Pokageek said:
?Not buying it.

You're not buying that he could make such high HP with his combo? I have stock E7 heads on my GT with stock cam and bottom end and my car spun the rollers to 423HP and 424 TQ @13 psi. The tuner could have flattened out the A/F at the end of my run and got me about 25 more HP!! Try getting that kind of power from H/C/I!! Of course, mine is backed down to 380 now, but it drives around town like it did before, has nice low end like a stocker and that boost feeling... nothing can compare to that feeling unless you have serious N/A HP!!

And, when cruising it's like it's not even there because the bypass opens and recirculates the air, so the blower isn't working very hard at all.

Knowledge is key when installing a blower kit. It has to be done right or not at all. Mine ran like pure dog crap before I got it tuned, hell I couldn't even boost it past 4 psi because it started breaking up bad!

When you install a H/C/I combo, you're pretty much stuck with that HP/TQ because you've just upgraded pretty much everything there is to upgrade. With a blower, more power is just a smaller pulley and a tune away. I'd recommend a blower to everyone!

Pokageek · Apr 16, 2007

No, I do not believe that anyone can get 500RWHP (not talking hp as in your example but he said rwhp) out of e7's. No way.

gmkillr · Apr 16, 2007

I never said e-7's just stock untouched gt-40 irons, w/ a ported cobra intake, and a C.I. cam w/ a s-trim pushing 15lbs. of boost netted me 505 rwhp & 467 rwtq, and this was on a very conservative tune. I have the dyno sheets and video of the car in my sig.

Pokageek · Apr 17, 2007

gmkillr said:
I never said e-7's just stock untouched gt-40 irons, w/ a ported cobra intake, and a C.I. cam w/ a s-trim pushing 15lbs. of boost netted me 505 rwhp & 467 rwtq, and this was on a very conservative tune. I have the dyno sheets and video of the car in my sig.

Wow. Yes, I believe you but I seriously though you were kidding. That is quite a lot of power even out of your heads.

Oh Edit BTW- GMkiller you are techinally H/C/I AND power adder..............!

HGFireHazard · Apr 17, 2007

S351Saleen77 said:
I was thinking of the question last week and he talked about a Vortech vs H/C/I.

This article was just out in the last couple of months so I thought I would say what they found out. I don't see how the H/C/I got as little power as it did but thats what happened. They had plenty of dyno time to tune it but it didn't work. The supercharger did exactly what I thought it would.

In his question he also talked about driveability and gas mileage. This test shows that sometimes matching heads/cam /and intake might be a gamble. Whats weird is this was a "matched" combo from a big name! If someone did this he would end up with a dog of a daily driver that was down on power and gas mileage below 3700rpm. I would just be pissed off! What a waste of money!!

On the other hand if you got a H.O. blower kit 8-10lbs of boost on a stock engine daily driver you give nothing up down low (you gain as boot starts), gas mileage stays the same cruising down the freeway (If you can keep your foot out of it) and I have never seen one not deliver what they promise. No guessing on matching componets.

Anyway the reason I started this was not to bash on H/C/I'S but to show what can and just happened. Probably 90% of the responses were for him to go H/C/I.
If it was me I would go a blower.

I had a stock 88gt that was a California mass air car. It had a badly dented H-pipe and flowmasters on stock exhaust. I put on shorty headers, bigger mass air and TB and a 14psi Procharger. The thing was making 5 lbs of boost at around 3500rpm. It made around 340-350 rwhp and was a blast to drive. Way more power down low than stock.

You guys can't fool yourself into thinking that you are going to get stock gas mileage with a blower. You can't add over 100 horsepower and keep your stock mileage, it doesn't make sense. If (when) you get a tune you need to richen the AF ratio and that automatically drops your mileage. I lost 5 mpg highway being good, 6 giving it a good beating, and I drive about 80% highway, the same as before the charger.

NA offers you a long and broad torque curve (usually) where a blower doesn't quite so well, on a stock longblock anyways. I build max torque at 3800-4000 and max hp around 5000 so it isn't exactly ideal. The power is great, but I believe a solid H/C/I is the best place to start. I knew when I started with my car that I wanted right near 500 rwhp/rwtq, and that I wanted to go that route with a good H/C/I and a blower, so I went with the one that I would consider more fun first, otherwise I would have went H/C/I first.

99FiveOh · Apr 17, 2007

Pokageek said:
No, I do not believe that anyone can get 500RWHP (not talking hp as in your example but he said rwhp) out of e7's. No way.

Pardon me, I failed to mention it was RWHP..

Pokageek · Apr 17, 2007

Ah, ok. 423 is pretty good though.

BlackVert · Apr 17, 2007

HGFireHazard said:
You guys can't fool yourself into thinking that you are going to get stock gas mileage with a blower. You can't add over 100 horsepower and keep your stock mileage, it doesn't make sense.

i disagree. it seems to me that, with a centrifugal blower, you can pretty much control the gas mileage with your right foot. think about this ...

at low rpms, there is effectively no boost (a common complaint with them, as you know), because the blower isn't spinning fast enough to increase the air flow much. so the gas mileage should be pretty much the same as stock.

the boost really only comes on when the blower is spinning fast enough (at higher rpms) and starts really forcing the air into the motor. once that happens, sure, the gas mileage will go way down.

so i assert that you can keep the gas mileage pretty close to stock with your right foot by keeping the rpms down.

S351Saleen77 · Apr 17, 2007

HGFireHazard said:
You guys can't fool yourself into thinking that you are going to get stock gas mileage with a blower. You can't add over 100 horsepower and keep your stock mileage, it doesn't make sense. If (when) you get a tune you need to richen the AF ratio and that automatically drops your mileage. I lost 5 mpg highway being good, 6 giving it a good beating, and I drive about 80% highway, the same as before the charger.

NA offers you a long and broad torque curve (usually) where a blower doesn't quite so well, on a stock longblock anyways. I build max torque at 3800-4000 and max hp around 5000 so it isn't exactly ideal. The power is great, but I believe a solid H/C/I is the best place to start. I knew when I started with my car that I wanted right near 500 rwhp/rwtq, and that I wanted to go that route with a good H/C/I and a blower, so I went with the one that I would consider more fun first, otherwise I would have went H/C/I first.

If you lost this kind of mileage something is wrong. To say that you can’t add 100hp and not loose mileage, well believe it or not…..you can!! With a Supercharger!! Sorry but I'm not fooling myself. I'm not sure that you understand how gas is added in these kits.

Here we go...Blower 101 ...If you bolt on a kit the only way it gets more gas is by the FMU.You have not changed anything else. The FMU adds more gas by raising the fuel pressure under load. Vacuum HAS to reach zero before the FMU will add any gas. So, under freeway cruise you are not under enough load to cause the FMU to raise the pressure. The bypass valve is open so the supercharger is freewheeling with no load on it. How could you possibly loose 5mpg?? With a supercharger cruising along in 5th gear Nothing has changed over stock. This was my point of a H/C/I combination, by choosing the H/C/I you will probably loose power down low especially in the cruise rpm and you can affect your mileage.

The only way it is going to add more fuel under cruise is if someone changed the fuel tables. Say a by a custom chip? Why would they add fuel at that rpm under light load such as a cruising down the freeway? There is no reason to add fuel, you are not making any boost because you don’t have enough load.

A H/C/I will normally loose power down in the rpm range where a blower looses nothing and adds as the rpm increases. So saying a H/C/I as a broad torque curve and a blower does not is also not true.

Like I said before that you will Not loose mileage IF you can keep your foot out of it!

S351Saleen77 · Apr 17, 2007

BlackVert said:
i disagree. it seems to me that, with a centrifugal blower, you can pretty much control the gas mileage with your right foot. think about this ...

at low rpms, there is effectively no boost (a common complaint with them, as you know), because the blower isn't spinning fast enough to increase the air flow much. so the gas mileage should be pretty much the same as stock.

the boost really only comes on when the blower is spinning fast enough (at higher rpms) and starts really forcing the air into the motor. once that happens, sure, the gas mileage will go way down.

so i assert that you can keep the gas mileage pretty close to stock with your right foot by keeping the rpms down.

EXACTLY RIGHT ON!!

S351Saleen77 · Apr 17, 2007

Pokageek said:
""1994-1995 Ford Mustang GT & Cobra 5.0L Supercharging Systems
The addition of the V-2 SQ S-Trim supercharger will increase horsepower from 215 to 319 and torque from 285 lb./ft. to 370 lb./ft. at 6-8 psig at the flywheel*. The V-1 T-Trim is available for those looking for high horsepower applications.*"

That sounds like a deal at $2800 S351Saleen77. And thanks for not taking my points/opinions personally either.

The HP on that kit is 20 higher than what you would typically get from a H/C/I and the TQ is about even. That kit looks like the bolt on and forget one too. Very nice. Thanks for posting.

Want to know One thing I liked at first and then got on my nerves after a while? The rock n' roll idle. It sounded cool but made the car feel like a junker at the lights after a while with the shaking.

Don't worry I don't take any of this personal

On the rock and roll idle.....this is part of the whole driveability issue that was part of what he was looking for. Say you install a H/C/I and you now get a new job and are stuck in stop and go traffic idleing for long periods. You are stuck with the shake....with a supercharger nothing has changed over stock. Driveabilty in stop and go has not changed at all. Highway cruise gas mileage ahas not changed at all.

The question was for 3 things. 300rwhp, driveability and Mileage. The Vortech kit he asked about fit this to a "T". It would do exactly what he wanted.
I started this whole thing because it seemed like the majority thought a supercharger would not do it.

On a 302 I don't like to give up bottom end torque...................that why you put in 351 based strokers!!!

5spd GT · Apr 17, 2007

You will lose some gas mileage in my opinion. The supercharger is driven by the crank which causes parasistic drag, whether under boost or not. If your easy on it, it shouldn't be a big deal at all.

final5-0 · Apr 17, 2007

5spd GT said:
You will lose some gas mileage in my opinion. The supercharger is driven by the crank which causes parasistic drag, whether under boost or not. If your easy on it, it shouldn't be a big deal at all.

I gotta throw in with this fine Gent here

I was very shocked
The first time I walked up and grabbed the pulley on a Vortech and
gave it a spin.

I never would have thought it would be that hard
to turn over by hand

About the gas consumption thing

I can get a bit over 19mpg on trips with
average speeds around 75mph

Grady

pwcracer · Apr 17, 2007

Do you want to include the cost of Head Gasket replacement when you go with the blower?

94-302-vert · Apr 17, 2007

Mileage is all about efficiency... With a super you have to lose efficiency due to the drage of the super. On an H/C/I you change efficiency due to valvetrain geometry changes, differnt cam, etc.

This is def apples to apples. the real question is do you want a stock motor at 2000 RPM or one that can produce a few more ponies?

S351Saleen77 · Apr 17, 2007

O.K. SORRY I was waiting for someone to point this out!

I didn't get into the power it takes to turn the supercharger. It dosen't take much when its not under a load and the motor is spinning at cruise rpm. The mass of the blowers rotating impeller has already accelerated.You might loose part of a mile per gallon! Sheeesh

If you really think that you will loose more mileage spinning the blower vs a H/C/I then I totally disagree with you. At a 2000rpm cruise I don't belive a camsahft with more duration, bigger port & valve heads,and a bigger manifold will give you better fuel economy than the stock cam,heads and intake will Even if you have to spin a freewheeling supercharger. Low rpm velocity will suffer. Ford did alot to give it gas mileage...adding these parts to add top end power normally hurts the lower powerband. You get some up top and trade some on the bottom. You don't do that on a supercharger.....that is the point of this whole thread. I can see some of you are starting to get it

Go ahead lay it on me....I can take it!!

Oh yeah I better mention the added weight.....or that will be next on how it will hurt the mileage...... Don't eat a chili cheese dog with a milkshake for lunch everyday and you won't even notice the weight!
Seriously, I'm not sure how much a whole kit weighs but I don't think its 50lbs. The blower might weigh 20? I will have to find out. Maybe 1% of the total weight of the car....belive me it's not going to make you loose a few mpg.

S351Saleen77 · Apr 17, 2007

pwcracer said:
Do you want to include the cost of Head Gasket replacement when you go with the blower?

I'll repeat myself again...........If you bolt this kit on it will more than likely be a little rich and safe. Thats how Vortech does it. You should dyno it and check the AFR to make sure. You don't start blowing head gaskets until you start to change things and don't check it out first and make sure the AFR is o.k.

It really seems like the majority of you think a supercharger is just a head gasket blowing / nightmare to tune thing. Too bad you feel this way.

S351Saleen77 · Apr 17, 2007

94-302-vert said:
Mileage is all about efficiency... With a super you have to lose efficiency due to the drage of the super. On an H/C/I you change efficiency due to valvetrain geometry changes, differnt cam, etc.

This is def apples to apples. the real question is do you want a stock motor at 2000 RPM or one that can produce a few more ponies?

So you think a H/C/I is more efficient at 2000rpm than a stocker spinning a blower? I don't think so.

Do you want a stock motor at 2000rpm or one that makes LESS POWER?? That is the question!

pwcracer · Apr 17, 2007

S351Saleen77 said:
I'll repeat myself again...........If you bolt this kit on it will more than likely be a little rich and safe. Thats how Vortech does it. You should dyno it and check the AFR to make sure. You don't start blowing head gaskets until you start to change things and don't check it out first and make sure the AFR is o.k.

It really seems like the majority of you think a supercharger is just a head gasket blowing / nightmare to tune thing. Too bad you feel this way.

My Supercharger wasn't just a bolt on thing, although they want you to think that. I bolted on my sc, then found I was running lean due to inadequate fuel supply, (Even with the KB fuel regulator) so I installed larger injectors and a larger fuel pump. Then the MAF started pegging, So I installed a larger MAF and larger throttle Body. Then had it tuned and blew a HG shortly after. Fixed that, and then my supercharger failed (Long story)
Now on my second head gasket and going to have it re tuned in a week.
When it's working properly I love my setup, but summer is very short around here, and lately my car is being worked on more than driven..

gcomfx.com · Apr 17, 2007

S351Saleen77 said:
Do you want a stock motor at 2000rpm or one that makes LESS POWER?? That is the question!

Uh, I'll take "neither one" for $1,000 Alex. 331/347 FTW!

Blower VS H/C/I

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final5-0

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