Blower VS H/C/I

[S351Saleen77]

My Supercharger wasn't just a bolt on thing, although they want you to think that. I bolted on my sc, then found I was running lean due to inadequate fuel supply, (Even with the KB fuel regulator) so I installed larger injectors and a larger fuel pump. Then the MAF started pegging, So I installed a larger MAF and larger throttle Body. Then had it tuned and blew a HG shortly after. Fixed that, and then my supercharger failed (Long story)
Now on my second head gasket and going to have it re tuned in a week.
When it's working properly I love my setup, but summer is very short around here, and lately my car is being worked on more than driven..

Sorry to hear this. I have owned a K.B. also. They make boost quicker down low and are more prone to this if things are not right. I NEVER blew a head gasket with my K.B. though.
A Vortech makes boost as the rpm rises and is much lees prone to blowing gaskets.
I still stand by the bolt on Vortech kit. They are pretty much safe and a bolt on.

 

[5spd GT]

I gained mpg over my stock engine when I swapped to h/c/i. Rougly a 3 mpg gain. The gas didn't have to be pressed 'near' as hard to get it to move the same way... Ran more efficiently.

I believe the kits are in the upper 40lb range...double check though. It can vary of course.

I liked the 'rebuild' factor of the h/c/i and by the time I added up the price of an S-trim with good tune, injectors, maf, (possible headgasket)...it added up to be around the same amount as my h/c/i swap. So with 142/3 on the engine I decided h/c/i was in my best interest.

 

[S351Saleen77]

I gotta throw in with this fine Gent here

I was very shocked
The first time I walked up and grabbed the pulley on a Vortech and
gave it a spin.

I never would have thought it would be that hard
to turn over by hand

About the gas consumption thing

I can get a bit over 19mpg on trips with
average speeds around 75mph

Grady

Grady,
Think of the rotating mass of a wheel. Once its rotating it takes much less power to keep it spinning. The same is true of a Centri supercharger or a Turbo. The step up ratio is what you felt when you turned it by hand from a dead stop and spun it.
This is why I'm saying it wouldn't affect gas mileage at cruise RPM. O.K. it will cost you 1/10 of a mpg!

Like a car going down the road....It takes almost twice the power to go 70mph as 50mph. It's all wind resistance. Once a car is up to cruising speed it does not take much HP to maintain. I just read about a electric car that took only 20hp to go 50mph.mph

 

[S351Saleen77]

I gained mpg over my stock engine when I swapped to h/c/i. Rougly a 3 mpg gain. The gas didn't have to be pressed 'near' as hard to get it to move the same way... Ran more efficiently.

I believe the kits are in the upper 40lb range...double check though. It can vary of course.

What is your cruise rpm? In the 2000-2300 range a H/C/I is normally down on power so you have to press harder and use more gas! If you cruise at 3000rpm a H/C/I will be more efficient.

Has anbody here had old musclecars?? When you look at the cam catalogs they recommend high rpm cruising 3000-3500 because thats where the cams are efficient. Because they didn't have overdrive 5spds.

 

[final5-0]

My Supercharger wasn't just a bolt on thing, although they want you to think that. I bolted on my sc, then found I was running lean due to inadequate fuel supply, (Even with the KB fuel regulator) so I installed larger injectors and a larger fuel pump. Then the MAF started pegging, So I installed a larger MAF and larger throttle Body. Then had it tuned and blew a HG shortly after. Fixed that, and then my supercharger failed (Long story)
Now on my second head gasket and going to have it re tuned in a week.
When it's working properly I love my setup, but summer is very short around here, and lately my car is being worked on more than driven..

See this ... right here ... right now

Here is a real experience from a fellow who has done did that and happened
to go the blower route.

That is just what several tried to point out with blowers

As I said before ... I'm not anti blower in anyway

Now ... For the NA side of this little discussion.

I've seen many cry about issues when they went with a NA h/c/i combo
as well

Issues such as these are exactly what I was trying to point out about
when you ask for ... A GOOD BIT MORE ... power like we are talking about
here from one of our 94-95 fuel injected, pcm controlled Stangs .......
No Matter If You Go ... Blower or NA H/C/I

Both will get pretty good gas mileage when at a cruise
so
I don't see how that is all that much of an issue myself

Both will really make the gas needle drop if pushed hard
so
Again ... its about six one way ... half a dozen the other

To me ... NA is cake
and
I give no concern whatsoever
for cams with low lsa's, large injectors, after market meters,
and a lot of that other stuff simply because I have found
pcm optimization is a very effective work around for all that.

I ain't saying NA is better or the only way to go
I am saying I just understand it and relate to it better than forced

I do not feel I am totally in the dark about forced induction as well
even though I don't have much experience with it.

Some here have talked about boost in the low and mid teens
Really ... is that typical for most day to day driven pump gas
Street Stangs

Just as the supporting parts and a tune is so helpful for a NA combo

The same needs to be said about adding a blower ... does it not

You just don't throw on a blower head unit and go
just like
You just don't buy some heads, a cam, and an intake and go

That is ... If you want optimum results from either combo

Summing up here ... Both are great
but
Both can require a bit of thought and maintenance .....

E S P E C I A L L Y ... If talking about a daily driven Stang
where
Reliability AND Drivibality can be so very important

IMHO ... Neither route could be considered all pro and no con

Grady

 

[final5-0]

What is your cruise rpm? In the 2000-2300 range a H/C/I is normally down on power so you have to press harder and use more gas! If you cruise at 3000rpm a H/C/I will be more efficient.

I want to point out what I feel is the most important word that was
used here would be ...

normally

Has anbody here had old musclecars?? When you look at the cam catalogs they recommend high rpm cruising 3000-3500 because thats where the cams are efficient. Because they didn't have overdrive 5spds.

You had better believe it when I say I am all too familiar with all at

I grew up with those old cars ... They were just great

You are correct Sir about how they were
however
That was old school
and
Today is today ... Technology has taken us beyond all that

When talking about street car applications here

You don't have to yield to
No bottom end for a strong top end these days

Now ... It is true ... h/c/i will shift the band up
but
I somehow see it as ......
Its not as bad as you make it seem to be.

Grady

 

[final5-0]

I wanna point out a thing or two here

This is a great thread

Good points by all

Lets keep it going with class

Lets try to not get childish
Just cause we might disagree

Its discussions like these where you can get some great insight

Grady

 

[final5-0]

Grady,
Think of the rotating mass of a wheel. Once its rotating it takes much less power to keep it spinning. The same is true of a Centri supercharger or a Turbo. The step up ratio is what you felt when you turned it by hand from a dead stop and spun it.
This is why I'm saying it wouldn't affect gas mileage at cruise RPM. O.K. it will cost you 1/10 of a mpg!

Like a car going down the road....It takes almost twice the power to go 70mph as 50mph. It's all wind resistance. Once a car is up to cruising speed it does not take much HP to maintain. I just read about a electric car that took only 20hp to go 50mph.mph

What you say does make some sense

I do wonder about stuff I have heard where blowers of more capacity take a
good bit of power to turn

Perhaps its only for the blowers all those really fast single digit
1/4 mile boys run

As you can see ... I don't have any valid info about this topic myself

Grady

 

[S351Saleen77]

Getting back to the original question. H/C/I vs a Vortech for 300rwhp, driveability,and gas mileage.

We were not talking about a Kenne Bell. Yes he had problems and I'm not about to try and figure out what it was. But they do make boost at a low rpm and things have to be right. A Vortech its more forgiving, the boost dosen't come on until higher and there is less of a load on the engine then. When I mentioned a article that 5.0 did everyone thought it was B.S. But you are quick to point out and say "See I told you so" Blowers just are nothing but problems! But most have never had any dealings with one. I have. I'm trying to help educate and it dosen't seem to be helpful.

Yeah a H/C/I is still driveable down low....but it's not as good as stock and thats what I was trying to say. Its like everything I say gets turned around. Nobody that has chosen a H/C/I can admit that maybe a blower would be good also.

I mentioned old cars to make another point of a Camshaft and efficiency. We were talikg 2000rpm cruising in new cars Again it get turned around.

 

[S351Saleen77]

I do have one final thought for you guys because this is like getting to the point of


If you ever decide to have a car that will pin you back in the seat at 100mph, your eyeballs forced back in your head.....Lighting the tires up on the Freeway You will have a power adder....Blower or Turbo or No2. Too bad you are so negative on blowers. Probably the same on No2 also

Me I will just enjoy my 600+ ft lbs of torque with a mild pump gas street "safe" tune....and listen to the music my Vortech makes......

 

[Pokageek]

I feel the same way on another thread.

Power adders are great. H/C/I is great.

 

[gcomfx.com]

Daddy likes juice.

 

[S351Saleen77]

I feel the same way on another thread.

Power adders are great. H/C/I is great.

 

[S351Saleen77]

What you say does make some sense

I do wonder about stuff I have heard where blowers of more capacity take a
good bit of power to turn

Perhaps its only for the blowers all those really fast single digit
1/4 mile boys run

As you can see ... I don't have any valid info about this topic myself

Grady

Yes it does take power to spin a blower at 6000rpm under full boost, but that is not what I, we were talking about. We were talking about 2000-2200rpm with NO load. HUGE difference. That's why I tried to relate it to something already spinning.
It's physics and it takes much less force to keep a rotating mass spinning than it does to get it there. To keep a Vortech S trim spinning under no load ....is not much of anything.

Yes big blowers take alot to turn under full boost /at high rpm, but they make huge power also!

 

[S351Saleen77]

Daddy likes juice.

Glad to see your not scared of it!!!!

 

[badstang123]

The more I read the harder it is for me to make a decision on what I want to do

 

[final5-0]

Getting back to the original question. H/C/I vs a Vortech for 300rwhp, driveability,and gas mileage.

We were not talking about a Kenne Bell. Yes he had problems and I'm not about to try and figure out what it was. But they do make boost at a low rpm and things have to be right. A Vortech its more forgiving, the boost dosen't come on until higher and there is less of a load on the engine then. When I mentioned a article that 5.0 did everyone thought it was B.S. But you are quick to point out and say "See I told you so" Blowers just are nothing but problems! But most have never had any dealings with one. I have. I'm trying to help educate and it dosen't seem to be helpful.

Yeah a H/C/I is still driveable down low....but it's not as good as stock and thats what I was trying to say. Its like everything I say gets turned around. Nobody that has chosen a H/C/I can admit that maybe a blower would be good also.

I mentioned old cars to make another point of a Camshaft and efficiency. We were talikg 2000rpm cruising in new cars Again it get turned around.

I can only speak for me but I have tried to not be on the offensive about blown combos.

I tried to point out ... many peeps have had issues with h/c/i
as a matter of fact ..............
On a regular basis ... I have to purge my pm box from those kind of peeps
asking for help after doing h/c/i

Heck ... when I got done with my sig combo, it would barely idle, ran too
rich, bucked and surged, and it had all the other drivibility gremlins you
hear so many speak about.

It was expected and a work around had been put in place so it was a non
issue for me. Having said that ... I try and help peeps see you can have these
kinds of issues with h/c/i ... but ... there are ways to deal with them.

Just cause that fellow above had issues with his blown combo
and you did not, that don't make either of the two experiences to
be less valid.

anyway ...............

You said you have owned both KB and Vortech so as far as I'm concerned, you
got experience to draw from and those who are trying to relate should find
the things you say to be of some help.

I would like to say something about cruising and my 373's .......
I usually don't run around at only 2K
Now ... That was true when I was stock

Of course ... not everybody is looking for the same kind of combo
sooooo
A centri blower is not for all folk

I myself would rather have low end boost
from KB or Turbo as opposed to centri
but
That don't make centri blowers a poor choice for all peeps

O Yeah ... About that article ... I was thinking peeps said that particular
combo was not very efficient.

Man ... I don't know what to tell you
except
As I see all this from my view point here

Your input is welcomed
and
Considering it is based upon experience
It should be helpful to many peeps if you ask me

Grady

 

[S351Saleen77]

Grady,
Point well taken.

I don't know what gears the guy is running so I don't know his cruise. But at under 2500rpm which I think alot of people cruise at I think the blower would give better mileage. Also driveability.........stop and go traffic etc

 

[S351Saleen77]

One more thing to think about..........

SALEEN put Vortech's on Foxbody 302's.

He put them on S351's that already had Heads,Cam,Intake, Headers, Borla exhaust,etc..

Why????

He sold them with a warranty....Why??

Why would he do this???

THINK about it for awhile.

I would Love to hear your thought's on it!

 

[HGFireHazard]

Alright.

I didn't use an FMU, I have 42# injectors, a PMAS 80mm MAF, a Walbro 255 HP LPH fuel pump and a dyno tune somewhere in the ballpark of 12.2 for the a/f ratio. However, despite FMU usage or not you still need the fuel to make the power.

Whether or not you push into boost your S/C requires power to turn, and despite your argument of "an object in motion tends to stay in motion", it still requires a good deal of energy. The figure that I hear most often for a supercharger is ~15% parasitic loss. I think you are underestimating the air/fuel/engine power it requires.

There is nothing wrong with a stock motor with a power adder making over 100 extra flywheel hp/tq and getting 15 mpg. I don't see how you can expect to make those extra ponies without extra fuel, that makes no sense.

A H/C/I (if put together with thought and the right parts) can be much more efficient than the stock motor, especially if you add better supporting hardware (example: ignition). A person doesn't have to throw a Perform RPM II with a powerband of 1500-6500, they can find one with a better runner length and flow design that builds power way down low. The stock longblock offers you the same restrictions when adding a blower and my chart shows that. Find a chart of someone who did a H/C/I and look at the curves.

I don't want to sound like a d***, but I think you are overconsidering some things and underconsidering others. I have the Vortech on the stock longblock, I have the mileage, and I feel I have a good grasp of what's going on with it.