Forced Induction Buying A Vortech Kit Have Questions

N8Dogg98 · Aug 30, 2012

I'll be in the market for a Vortech kit sometime in the next 6 months and have a few questions.

Should I buy the V2 or V3? I like the idea of not having to tap the oil pan and having a unit with its own oil supply so I'm leaning towards a V3. How challenging is changing the SC oil in the V3? How often must it be changed?

I already have a handheld tuner (SCT) so I'll probably buy a tuner kit. What injectors should I buy and which fuel pump will be both the most economical and most reliable for my 1998 GT?

Some of you know that I have stage 2 NPI N/A cams in my car. Will my car run like chit with these cams AND a supercharger? Am I better off switching back to the PI cams that were in my car before, or can I live with the NPI N/A cams for a while and change them out to some blower cams later?

I'll probably end up buying just the supercharger kit without an intercooler/aftercooler, however I'd probably plan on adding one later on down the line. Is it relatively easy to add an intercooler/aftercooler and which one is better?

rconaway · Aug 30, 2012

I would stick with the V2 unless you are planning on putting new heads and intercooler on the car. The stage 2 cams are fine. I had to put dual Walbro 255's on my car to get enough fuel to handle more then 400hp.

N8Dogg98 · Aug 30, 2012

rconaway said:
I would stick with the V2 unless you are planning on putting new heads and intercooler on the car. The stage 2 cams are fine. I had to put dual Walbro 255's on my car to get enough fuel to handle more then 400hp.

What do new heads and an intercooler have to do with the manner in which the SC is lubricated? Why do you think the V2 is better than the V3?

Will I see better performance out of my NPI engine with PI cams or if I just keep the NPI N/A stage 2 MHS cams in there now?

Can I use a Focus SVT pump instead?

Noobz347 · Aug 30, 2012

N8Dogg98 said:
What do new heads and an intercooler have to do with the manner in which the SC is lubricated? Why do you think the V2 is better than the V3?

Will I see better performance out of my NPI engine with PI cams or if I just keep the NPI N/A stage 2 MHS cams in there now?

Can I use a Focus SVT pump instead?

I was wondering the same thing....

I also don't understand why two pumps are required for 400HP. I mean... I get that it's a returnless system but a single 255 should provide considerably more fuel than what is needed for 400HP.

On the Dual Pump thing... Heads up that the fuel controller may not be able to handle both pumps at boost. I remember a portion of another convo where someone had to install a second controller.

N8Dogg98 · Aug 30, 2012

Thing is I'd probably only run the thing at 6-8 PSI and if later on down the road I decided to add an intercooler and up the boost to > 10 PSI then I'd add a second pump as necessary. I still wouldn't do this without building a good short block first.

Regardless, with NPI heads I'll be lucky to see 350RWHP with a simple non-intercooled vortech kit. As much as I'd love to get more power, it just ain't gonna happen... not on my tuner's dyno at least (238 RWHP with my cams... for comparison the same combo runs 275 RWHP on a DynoJet).

Noobz347 · Aug 30, 2012

N8Dogg98 said:
Thing is I'd probably only run the thing at 6-8 PSI and if later on down the road I decided to add an intercooler and up the boost to > 10 PSI then I'd add a second pump as necessary. I still wouldn't do this without building a good short block first.

Regardless, with NPI heads I'll be lucky to see 350RWHP with a simple non-intercooled vortech kit. As much as I'd love to get more power, it just ain't gonna happen... not on my tuner's dyno at least (238 RWHP with my cams... for comparison the same combo runs 275 RWHP on a DynoJet).

With your setup, I'd probably go PD blower all day, every day but I get the part about wanting to buy the blower one time with room to do more "stuff" later on.

For what it's worth, I'd be down with the V3 setup. Can't beat a self-contained system, regardless of what blower you go with. That and the air to air system is why I tend to lean more towards the ATI kits.

N8Dogg98 · Aug 30, 2012

What does my setup have to do with it? (honest question, no troll)... why do you think that?

Thing is PD blowers are EXPENSIVE! I can find 96-98 GT SQ Vortech kits all day on Corral for around $2,000... KB didn't make many PD blowers for the 96-98's and if you can find one it is only the 1.7L with no room to grow above 400RWHP. I like the TorkTech kits, but they're only for PI headed cars and I don't really feel like the hassle of having to source all the random parts necessary to make them work.

At the end of the day, I'd really rather not have to spend 5-8K on a complete engine with PI heads just so I can run an overpriced supercharger like a KB or a TorkTech. OTOH for under $3,000 (including dyno time AND fuel system upgrades) I can have a complete running car with plenty of room to grow in the future.

I really wish I had the funds available for a more entertaining setup like a forged engine, ported PI heads or TFS heads, blower cams, and an intercooled PD blower, but I don't. In fact, I spent 6 hours over the weekend going over the medical bills my family has incurred over the past 3.5 years and put it all on a spreadsheet... I've spent $21,000 in medical bills since June 2009... f**king crazy.... we have an on-going cost of $4,000 per year for my son due to his monthly lab appointments and daily medicine.... anyways, this is why I'm looking at the Vortech as it will provide solid reliable performance and won't break the bank.

Noobz347 · Aug 30, 2012

N8Dogg98 said:
What does my setup have to do with it? (honest question, no troll)... why do you think that?

...because for the most part, NPIs are (comparitively) gutless in the torque generation department. That little 1.7L blower will fill those combustion chambers more completely and for the largest duration of the combustion cycle vs. any other power adder except for maybe a good (well matched) turbo. That said, I agree 100% with everything you posted.

I wouldn't put out the expense for that PD unless it was the only engine mod I had any intention of doing to that motor.

N8Dogg98 · Aug 30, 2012

Noobz347 said:
...because for the most part, NPIs are (comparitively) gutless in the torque generation department. That little 1.7L blower will fill those combustion chambers more completely and for the largest duration of the combustion cycle vs. any other power adder except for maybe a good (well matched) turbo. That said, I agree 100% with everything you posted.

I wouldn't put out the expense for that PD unless it was the only engine mod I had any intention of doing to that motor.

Not true at all, my car will OWN a PI mustang up to 4K RPM. The NPI's had impressive LE torque from the factory and given that I now have the MHS stage 2 NPI N/A cams with the aggressive intake centerline my car comes on very strong from 2K RPM's, flatlines at 4800 RPM's, and drops off very quickly at 5500 RPMs. With a PD blower, I'd probably see a very nice progressive torque curve.

4V cars, especially the 96-98's, definitely lacked in the torque department and would be best served by a PD blower.

N8Dogg98 · Aug 30, 2012

Here is another question. After installation with the bigger injectors, fuel pump, etc... how the f do I get it running well enough to limp it to my tuner?

Noobz347 · Aug 30, 2012

N8Dogg98 said:
Not true at all, my car will OWN a PI mustang up to 4K RPM. The NPI's had impressive LE torque from the factory and given that I now have the MHS stage 2 NPI N/A cams with the aggressive intake centerline my car comes on very strong from 2K RPM's, flatlines at 4800 RPM's, and drops off very quickly at 5500 RPMs. With a PD blower, I'd probably see a very nice progressive torque curve.

4V cars, especially the 96-98's, definitely lacked in the torque department and would be best served by a PD blower.

You know the car better than I do (I've driven maybe half a dozen and never owned one), but I can tell you that there'd be nothing "progressive" about the torque curve... On a dyno, it would look more like vertical cliff with a 90* shelf screwed into the side of it.

N8Dogg98 said:
Here is another question. After installation with the bigger injectors, fuel pump, etc... how the f do I get it running well enough to limp it to my tuner?

You don't unless you're also installing a MAF that is intended to match the injectors you're putting in.

N8Dogg98 · Aug 30, 2012

Noobz347 said:
You know the car better than I do (I've driven maybe half a dozen and never owned one), but I can tell you that there'd be nothing "progressive" about the torque curve... On a dyno, it would look more like vertical cliff with a 90* shelf screwed into the side of it.

Have you driven a cammed NPI car?

Noobz347 said:
You don't unless you're also installing a MAF that is intended to match the injectors you're putting in.

I thought it was different with OBDII cars in that you can set injector pulse based on MAF readings. So it begs the question how do I get to the tuner shop? Can I use my SCT tuner to tell the car what size injectors I'm running and just yltake it easy?

trinity_gt wmburns I know you two have lots of experience ... any help would be appreciated

Winters98GT any info you may have about Vortech units would be helpful, even if it is related to LSx units.

Noobz347 · Aug 30, 2012

N8Dogg98 said:
Have you driven a cammed NPI car?

I thought it was different with OBDII cars in that you can set injector pulse based on MAF readings. So it begs the question how do I get to the tuner shop? Can I use my SCT tuner to tell the car what size injectors I'm running and just yltake it easy?

trinity_gt wmburns I know you two have lots of experience ... any help would be appreciated

You can get an SCT tune and have it ready to install prior to performing the mayhem.

N8Dogg98 · Aug 30, 2012

that's a good plan... I'll see if my tuner can write me a simple canned safe tune that will at least allow the car to idle properly and cruise to his shop 20 miles away.

Thanks Noobz!

The only questions I have left are regarding injector size (I was thinking 42# injectors), whether or not N/A cams will negatively impact performance, and V2 vs. V3 ... anyone with experience using either unit, please chime in.

Noobz347 · Aug 30, 2012

N8Dogg98 said:
that's a good plan... I'll see if my tuner can write me a simple canned safe tune that will at least allow the car to idle properly and cruise to his shop 20 miles away.

Thanks Noobz!

The only questions I have left are regarding injector size (I was thinking 42# injectors), whether or not N/A cams will negatively impact performance, and V2 vs. V3 ... anyone with experience using either unit, please chime in.

I'm not a centrifugal expert but I've not seen an N/A cam yet, that had a NEGATIVE effect on boost. Generally, low(er) compression and cams with a little more duration on the exhaust side, tend to eek the most out of whatever boost you toss at it. All that extra air velocity screaming down that intake should really wake up your mid and upper ranges. You might want to tweak the rev limiter a couple hundred rpm higher too. Your tuner should know what's best.

No matter really... The boost is going to help... without doubt.

fiveohwblow · Aug 30, 2012

I would assume your cams are sill better than stock considering your power goals. It will require less boost. Also, the walbro HIPO 255 is good to 500 rwhp. No need for more, even with returnless. Fwiw on a dyno jet I am chasing 500 rwhp and have more fuel than I need with the walbro 255 and flow matched 42's.

Lastly, you are concerned about looks. The v3 just flat out looks cleaner and that's the single largest benefit. Yes not tapping your oil pan is another as is self contained etc etc but those are obvious. Also less work for installation.

You already have your power/tq curves figured out. You need help up top. Typically for your budget a centri is EXACTLY what you need here, and the lower end PD blowers lose steam up top, comparatively. You're already on the right track.

N8Dogg98 · Aug 30, 2012

fiveohwblow said:
I would assume your cams are sill better than stock considering your power goals. It will require less boost. Also, the walbro HIPO 255 is good to 500 rwhp. No need for more, even with returnless. Fwiw on a dyno jet I am chasing 500 rwhp and have more fuel than I need with the walbro 255 and flow matched 42's.

thanks J, that's helpful

fiveohwblow said:
Lastly, you are concerned about looks. The v3 just flat out looks cleaner and that's the single largest benefit. Yes not tapping your oil pan is another as is self contained etc etc but those are obvious. Also less work for installation.

I am... I like my chit clean only thing is the V3 is relatively new so it may be a challenge to find a deal on a used one. That said, paying a little more for a brand new "clean looking" unit with a warranty certainly isn't a bad idea. Tuner kits seem to cost around $2800 which is quite reasonable.... although I found a relatively new complete V2 SQ on Corral with an intercooler and the fuel system components for only $2300 today.

fiveohwblow said:
You already have your power/tq curves figured out. You need help up top. Typically for your budget a centri is EXACTLY what you need here, and the lower end PD blowers lose steam up top, comparatively. You're already on the right track.

That's what I'm thinking.... plus, I like the ability to upgrade w/o hassle if I ever have a built engine and want to really crank up the boost. If I did do a built engine, I'd get ported heads, cams, and run 10:1 or 10.5:1 compression anyways so low end torque shouldn't be a problem then either.

wht93gtEd · Aug 30, 2012

My 98 has a V1 pushing 11.5lbs boost with stock long block.
60lb injectors, 90mm lightning MAF, walbro in tank 255 and in line vortech t-rex.
Tuned and runs beautifully.

The tune is pretty rich, you don't want to be behind me if it's in boost.

1fun281 · Aug 30, 2012

Do a vortech, PD blowers are very limited and run out of breath down low, nothing but stump pullers! 3.73, vortech, good cams, longtubes, maybe an intake one day if you do heads and it will run hard!

joshjwc9 · Aug 30, 2012

1fun281 said:
Do a vortech, PD blowers are very limited and run out of breath down low, nothing but stump pullers! 3.73, vortech, good cams, longtubes, maybe an intake one day if you do heads and it will run hard!

Yea, I've ridden in extreme versions of both blowers and the centri's are still where the fun is at for me.

I drove my car 18 miles with mismatched MAF and injectors to my tuner, just don't get in boost, it only didnt want to idle at stop lights..but it got there and put down 380/378 non intercooled on a Mustang dyno in 80 degree and 100% humidity weather, in a 132k mile stock motor...

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