calling all pro touring or full race mustangs

Travis77 · Feb 23, 2008

Anyone here have much Nasa, Scca, or Silver State Classic racing experience with their mustangs? This can be anything from rally, autocross, or solo events. I have been doing some searching here but have come up short handed.

So...... any novice or pro racers want to chime in on various topics such as: usable hp, motor choices, preferred trans., suspension, chassis upgrades, brake combos, weight distribution, cooling systems, fuel systems, or anything else related to this thread?

Decurion · Feb 23, 2008

Anything in particular youre looking for? I mean, stock components with shelby drop, roller spring perches, higher rate/lowering springs, and maybe even a roller idler arm, all combined with a good alignment will work wonders for any car with this type of suspension. And not only will it perform on the track, its still totally streetable.
I think what youre asking is maybe a little too general.

Travis77 · Feb 23, 2008

Just thought is might be an interesting topic. We are always talking hp numbers, suspension and brake upgrades, etc., and thought it would be cool to hear from the guys that are putting everything to good use. What you like about your setup and what you would have done differently. There is really no specific response I am looking for.
I just thought there might be others that have considered pushing their cars to it's limits. And others that have. This topic seems to never be mentioned here despite race inspired projects being posted.

I have always been more interested in cornering and braking ability of a car than the straight line performance. With that in mind I have been looking into SCCA and NASA solo events. I have also been looking at the Silver State and Texas Mile. Call me crazy, but shagging a$$ for 90 miles while averageing speeds well over 100mph, sounds fun.

Bullitt · Feb 23, 2008

Travis77, I've autocrossed my '67 extensively. They're a lot of fun, but take a ton of money/parts to be class winners (CP is about your only choice and that's full-on race). I did have an absolute blast though playing around on street tires and DRs. ~385 HP, 5spd, 4-wheel discs, 1960s suspension mods (4.5 leafs, shelby underriders, shelby drop, 620 coils, 1 1/8" bar, KYB shocks), TCP manual rack, and subframe connectors. It's a workout muscling one of those cars around with a manual rack!

I've got a friend who's done the Big Bend Open Road Race twice now. Won class once and second place the second time (faster class). Sounds like fun, but from what he's said its mostly straight road with just a few turns that aren't taken flat out. He said the hardest part was keeping his Camaro from overheating ('02 Camaro with lid, cutout, and speedlimiter removed) as there was extended time at ~170 mph in 5th which is buzzing the LS1 pretty good! Said the lower classes (like 120mph average which is the fastest a "novice" can do) are a cake walk and it's hard to not exceed your index speed. The 140mph class is pretty crazy though as you really have to run flat out to hit your index. At least flat out in a mostly stock car...

Z06killinSBF · Feb 23, 2008

I think what your looking for is over at www.pro-touring.com or at www.lateral-g.net

I have a lot of the typical upgrade i.e. rack&pinion, high rate springs, shelby drop, sub connectors, roll bar, sway bars, disk brakes,.....

65 fastback · Feb 23, 2008

I autocross and open track my '65 and am going to enter a Time Trails event this Spring. It's a lot of fun and you can really feel the changes that you make to your car this way. I would suggest that anyone interested start with autocross, it is a great way to sort out your car and get it set up well.

Most tracks offer High Performace Driver Education (HPDE) classes where you can take your car to the track and get full instruction. Be warned though, one hit from this crack pipe and your hooked.

If your interested the VMF has a forum dedicated to autocross, opentracking road racing and drag racing vintage Mustangs - http://forums.vintage-mustang.com/showforum.php?fid/12/

Autocross

Open Track Event at Summit Point - http://www.summitpoint-raceway.com/

Travis77 · Feb 24, 2008

Has anyone been racing using a newer style front coil over set like global west or tcp. Also what about tcp power r&p. Do you guys think running these two in conjunction would make for a better than average entry level racing package. And as far as brakes are concerned. Do you guys think that cobra brakes equipped with hydroboost would be up to the abuse?

Bullitt · Feb 24, 2008

All the parts you mentioned are fine, some people get away with a lot less (Opentracker for one). If you don't mind cutting up the body and losing some streetability you can get even better than those options by going the custom route.

If you want it to be truly effective and competitive, you need to pick a class / series / etc and build it for that. Otherwise you'll be making a lot of sacrifices to stay within the rules.

Travis77 · Feb 24, 2008

I am finding that out.
I had the car mini tubbed when I first got it . It was hacked to hell. Since then, I decided to go with martz 4-link with a whole new rear clip. Then I tied in the front and rear with 2x4 3/16 tubing serving as a backbone for the car. Because of looks and ground clearance, I raised the whole floor of my car while making it flat.
I'm saying all this because all these mods including my modified firewall are going to make it tuff to run in a street car class. I am just wondering if I can get some seat time, will my car somewhat be able to compete in the unlimited class(if ever graduated from solo racing)? But who knows, I may only decide to do an occasional time trial event.
Which brings me to another question regarding cages vs bars. The best overall style to go with (for me) is an 8pt with removable cross bar. I just need to decide on what to do with the door bars. A lot of folks discourage the idea of using swing out bars. Anyone want to comment on that. Thanks for the replies

I post over at lat-g and pro touring as well. I was just thinking this thread might be beneficiary to others that have similar mustangs getting built.

bnickel · Feb 24, 2008

you could also run an open track event where you don't have to fit into a particular class, just you and the clock basically, and whatever traffic you pass on the way. since your in Baytown you're not too terribly far from Texas World Speedway or the Motorsports Ranch facility (those may actually be the same place, i'm too far away to know the diff) and i'm sure they run these types of events pretty regularly.

you can get a lot of info from www.corner-carvers.com as well. just be careful to read to read the posting rules before you even think about posting, i'd recommend lurking for a month or two to get a feel for the forum, actually

69gmachine · Feb 24, 2008

Travis77 said:
I am finding that out.
I had the car mini tubbed when I first got it . It was hacked to hell. Since then, I decided to go with martz 4-link with a whole new rear clip. Then I tied in the front and rear with 2x4 3/16 tubing serving as a backbone for the car. Because of looks and ground clearance, I raised the whole floor of my car while making it flat.
I'm saying all this because all these mods including my modified firewall are going to make it tuff to run in a street car class. I am just wondering if I can get some seat time, will my car somewhat be able to compete in the unlimited class(if ever graduated from solo racing)? But who knows, I may only decide to do an occasional time trial event.
Which brings me to another question regarding cages vs bars. The best overall style to go with (for me) is an 8pt with removable cross bar. I just need to decide on what to do with the door bars. A lot of folks discourage the idea of using swing out bars. Anyone want to comment on that. Thanks for the replies

.

With major mods to the floorpan and firewall, you're not going to be legal for any of the major series such as NASA or SCCA. You can do open track events or time trials, but with a 4 link and mini tubs it sounds like you're more set up for drag racing.

I've made a lot of mods to my steering, suspension, brakes and drivetrain (all NASA legal, none SCCA legal). It's made a huge improvement all around, but I don't have enough track experience to push it anywhere near it's limit. I grenaded the valvetrain the last time I took it to the track making a pass, and it's taken over a year to rebuild the engine and get it back in the car.

My car is too nice to turn into a gutted race car. They get really competitive in NASA. They swap paint and knock each other around on occasion. You need a purpose built race car and a whole lot of money.

As Bullitt mentioned, the first thing you need to decide is what direction you're going. If you want to compete in a sanctioning body, get a copy of the rulebook before making any mods to your car. An NHRA legal drag race cage might not satisfy either SCCA or NASA.

Z06killinSBF · Feb 24, 2008

You might be able to run in "C-modified" class in Solo 2. I cant remember one rule but your car is simular to a Camaro my dad ran back i the early 90's.

68FBJJZ109 · Feb 24, 2008

Travis77 said:
I am finding that out.
I had the car mini tubbed when I first got it . It was hacked to hell. Since then, I decided to go with martz 4-link with a whole new rear clip. .

Have you installed your 4 link yet? When I had the cage put in my car, we looked through the SCCA rule book, and just built it to exceed there standards.

gsxrken · Feb 24, 2008

Many of the others have made alot of sense. I will point out one thing regarding final drive ratios. When I track my car, it tops out 4th at around 130 due to 3.73 ring gear and 25.5" tires. Shifting the TKO 600 into 5th really drops the revs and hurts torque multiplication, as my box has the .64 overdrive. If you intend to spend any amount of time at tracks where you can really wind 'em out, I'd say go with a smaller rear end gear than me and/or go with a .82 overdrive unit instead of the .64

I'm staying with my setup b/c I'm leaning towards slower technical tracks and autocross anyway these days... I have no business going as fast I have already without a cage, and I want to keep this a street car with a functional back seat.

The other thing I learned is that you can get a stock disc/drum car to hang all day at a track event if you have the right pads bedded in and a good bleed on the system.

Travis77 · Feb 24, 2008

Yes I have installed it but have not fully welded it into place. Kind of made a goof on the axle measurement. Did the rear mock up before the front GW stuff was installed. Thought I would/could end up with a much lower ride height than original overall. Therfore, when I measured for my housing I allowed for enough room so that the outside of the tire would tuck inside of the swell of the quarter. This was a big mistake. My ride height is not going to be as low as I was thinking. And the rear tire should have been just inside of the non rolled lip of the quarter. Both rear quarters and tubs are just tacked in place because I was needing a rear valence to get the repop quarters in the correct position. Needless to say I said F*** it and went hunting 4 months ago and just now starting to look at it again.

As far as rear gears in relation to tire size and final drive ratios. Martz talked me into going with 3:89 instead of 3:55. That seems pretty low, but I still may be okay with my near 26in tire. I've got a Richmond six speed with ratios of 3.28, 2.22, 1.57, 1.24, 1.0, and .80. If I need to change the rear gear, that would probably be the cheapest made up to this part. I'll just change it out later if need be.

iapexl8r · Feb 25, 2008

nasa has time trials, there perfect for your set up. They have this "modification" sheet that you fill out basicly list all the mods to your car; tires engine hp suspension mods ect then they do some math magic and awala you are out on the track racing (you have to complete hpde 1 through 4 with an instructor first)it is time trials but with open passing http://www.nasa-tt.com/. You may even fit into the american iron series.http://www.americanironracing.com/

Racin is fun chris

68FBJJZ109 · Feb 25, 2008

Yeah that will do it, I fortunately had a 59 Ford 9, which is very narrow to begin with, and between that and 12sec67 set up i decided what i needed for axle length when i ordered my rear from Martz, there good guys there and very helpfull.

Bullitt · Feb 25, 2008

bnickel said:
you could also run an open track event where you don't have to fit into a particular class, just you and the clock basically, and whatever traffic you pass on the way. since your in Baytown you're not too terribly far from Texas World Speedway or the Motorsports Ranch facility (those may actually be the same place, i'm too far away to know the diff) and i'm sure they run these types of events pretty regularly.

There are 2 other road race tracks in Houston itself now. There's a track down off of 45 near Texas City at the Old Blimp Base that I've autocrossed at before (now called Grandsport Speedway). Also, MSR Houston is excellent from everything I've head which is on the southside of town.

As far as the modifications you've made to your car, you'd bumped out of C-Prepared which is where most pony cars end up due to the extensive floor pan/firewall mods. You are legal to run in E-modified though which some of the CP field has gone to recently since you get to play with the car more.

Before you decide on gears you need to think about your engine RPM and powerband. My Camaro, built for CP, has an 8k redline, so we used 5.33 gears for autocrossing (stay in 2nd the whole time) and 27" tall tires. Of course for a lower redline you should use less gear. If you want to start out on the autocross side, gear the car for a speed of like 80mph in second gear. That's safe for most events in Texas. If you run in College Station you might get into 3rd on occasion... For comparison sake my '67 consistenly ran out of 2nd gear with 3.73s in the rear (6500 RPM redline) on street tires, would have needed 3rd a lot more too if it had been on race tires!

Anyways, there is a Houston Region SCCA autocross on March 2nd. http://www.houscca.com/ If you want to come out and see what it is all about, come on out. I'll be out there, but won't have either the Mustang or the Camaro unfortunately (engine blown in the Camaro...). Shoot me a PM if you plan on heading out.

bnickel · Feb 26, 2008

Bullitt said:
There are 2 other road race tracks in Houston itself now. There's a track down off of 45 near Texas City at the Old Blimp Base that I've autocrossed at before (now called Grandsport Speedway). Also, MSR Houston is excellent from everything I've head which is on the southside of town.

As far as the modifications you've made to your car, you'd bumped out of C-Prepared which is where most pony cars end up due to the extensive floor pan/firewall mods. You are legal to run in E-modified though which some of the CP field has gone to recently since you get to play with the car more.

Before you decide on gears you need to think about your engine RPM and powerband. My Camaro, built for CP, has an 8k redline, so we used 5.33 gears for autocrossing (stay in 2nd the whole time) and 27" tall tires. Of course for a lower redline you should use less gear. If you want to start out on the autocross side, gear the car for a speed of like 80mph in second gear. That's safe for most events in Texas. If you run in College Station you might get into 3rd on occasion... For comparison sake my '67 consistenly ran out of 2nd gear with 3.73s in the rear (6500 RPM redline) on street tires, would have needed 3rd a lot more too if it had been on race tires!

Anyways, there is a Houston Region SCCA autocross on March 2nd. http://www.houscca.com/ If you want to come out and see what it is all about, come on out. I'll be out there, but won't have either the Mustang or the Camaro unfortunately (engine blown in the Camaro...). Shoot me a PM if you plan on heading out.

man i wish i still lived in Austin, i'd be so much closer to all the fun stuff. all we have here in the dust bowl is a couple of drag strips or we can drive 2 hours to Amarillo and drive fast through parking lots.....it sucks, there aren't even any good twisty roads to play on just straight flat expanses of asphalt as far as the eye can see and further betond that.

Travis77 · Feb 26, 2008

Thanks for the info.. I do plan to make the trip mainly to speak with tech guys about what I need to do about my cage/or bar. Don't want to cross the line yet and go full NHRA cage if not necessary. Especially since I'm not 100% certain that I will even want to stick with it. Like I said, this will be an entry level race car, but could scare the piss out of ya on the street. If I do get into racing more, I've got an $800 69 fastback that I plan to build specifially for racing. Thanks guys.

Anyone catch one of the road racing mustang episodes on Muscle Car TV? That thing looks pretty amazing. Really dig the quick change rear end and 3-link that were installed.

calling all pro touring or full race mustangs

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