CCRM, PCM, or something else?

mjcarguy

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Hello - First time posting. I need help with my '00 v6. some background: I started having some trouble with starting it last fall ( having to let it crank a few times before it it would start). I put it away for the winter, putting a battery tender on to keep it from going dead.

Fast forward to a few weeks ago, I went to try and start it, and all it would do is crank but never turn over. I know that you need fuel, oxygen, and a spark to get an engine going, I now i was getting air, and the starter seemed fine, so i checked the fuel. I replaced the fuel pump and fuel filter, went to start it up again, and... you guessed it, wouldn't start. (Before you hassle me for diagnosis by swapping parts, I checked with a few neighbors that are mechanics we checked the fuel pressure prior and there was none).

In addition to the car not turning over, the fan runs constantly, the odometer reads dashes, Check engine light is on and theft light is fast blinking. I have a OBD reader (autel MD802) but it says it can't connect. I have read other posts on the forum, so I started checking all the fuses (engine and under dash) I tested for power at F2.2, F2.8 & F2.34. Those all have power with Key on.

I checked the CCRM, I have power at pin 12, 24, 10, but not on pin 8. I have voltage at the Inertia switch as well

I have checked the grounds to see if they are loose - The one by the battery, the one by the radiator/ air intake, the one by the under dash fuse box, the one in the trunk, and the one by the PCM.

what else am I missing?
 
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wmburns

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You have covered way more of the bases than the average bear. Good work!

If this were my car I would check power(s) and ground(s) at the PCM. Starting with a through visual inspection looking for evidence of water or rodent activity. Especially in the area around the PCM.
 
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mjcarguy

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You have covered way more of the bases than the average bear. Good work!

If this were my car I would check power(s) and ground(s) at the PCM. Starting with a through visual inspection looking for evidence of water or rodent activity. Especially in the area around the PCM.

Thanks, I got a lot from posts you have made , which has been a big help on narrowing down things. I did pull the pcm out of the little plastic mount to see it better. I did notice that below where the pcm is mounted, there was what appeared to be some grass seed, and also possibly rodent droppings. I couldn’t see any actual damage though, but I will look again tomorrow. It would help too if I had a good diagram of what pins are what on the pcm that I could test with the voltmeter.

is there a reason that the ccrm doesn’t have power when key is on?
 
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wmburns

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is there a reason that the ccrm doesn’t have power when key is on?
That's not what your opening post says. Power for fuses F2.2 and F2.8 comes from the CCRM. Further you stated there voltage at the trunk IFS switch which also comes through the CCRM.

Therefore there has to be power into and out of the CCRM at least for Motor functions.

At the MAF red wire is the key on +12 volts? What about at each COP and fuel injector? If there is key on +12 volts there, that also "proves" the CCRM is working.

Based upon everything above it seems likely to me that the PCM has many of the normal external signals that it needs. But yet it's still not showing signs of life. That's why I suggested performing a though visual inspection as well as confirming power and grounds directly at the PCM.
 
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mjcarguy

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Sorry I meant no power at ccrm pin 8 when key on

I looked again at the wiring by the pcm,I don’t see any sign of a rodent feast.

I disconnected the pcm (first disconnecting the battery, then reconnecting after the pcm was off) then with key on tested pin 71 and 97 for power both had over 12 volts. I also tested pin 80 (which I believe is the fuel pump pin) that only had 5 volts

Forgive me, I am not familiar with what a COP is (other than the guys that pull you over for speeding!)
 

wmburns

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I'm very confused about the base symptoms. Do you have CONFIRMED key on power into and out of fuses F2.2 and F2.8?

What about at the TPS sensor RED wire? Do you have +12 volts key on power there?

What about key on power at the CCRM Pin #24 (RD) wire? Because IF this is true, THEN the CCRM is working. Your problem is external to the CCRM.

FYI COP stands for Coil on Plug. But since this is a V6 you have a coil pack application. There is still a power line to the coil pack to test.

With regards to the PCM.

PCM C294 Power
#56 RD/WH (keep alive). Note, I could see a case where a missing keep alive could cause your symptoms. Check fuse F2.21
#71 RD
#97 RD

Grounds
#25 BK
#51, 76, 77, 103 BK/WH

Test grounds with a test light that will "load" the circuit. Test using a known good ground.

If interested in getting a full copy of the Ford service manual with wiring diagrams I maybe able to help. PM if interested.

1999-2004 MY fuse panel schedule:
 
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mjcarguy

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I'm very confused about the base symptoms. Do you have CONFIRMED key on power into and out of fuses F2.2 and F2.8?

Sorry if I haven't made sense - Yes I have power in and out on F2.2 and F2.8 12.78 volts on both, in and out.

TPS sensor had 5.05 volts on the black/white wire ( the bottom of the 3 wires)

I have Key on power at ccrm pin #24

Coil on plug, got it thank you! I found the coil pack, there are 4 wires, 2 red, 1 reddish/pink with a white stripe, and a black. The 3 non-black wires had 12.56 volts

The PCM had over 12 volts on #56, 71, & 97 Fuse 2.21 had power key on ( I tested the voltage on the PCM harness with the PCM not on to make sure I didnt break it)

I checked the grounds on #25, 51,76,77, & 103, and all looked good ( I have a probe from harbor freight - https://www.harborfreight.com/computer-safe-automotive-logic-probe-63597.html) it attaches right to the battery. It that the correct way to test?
 

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wmburns

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If asking for my opinion I would prefer that a higher current draw test light be used. Typically LED based test lights are very low draw (computer safe). Better to use a incandescent automotive test light that draws more current for ground testing. Here's some more information that may help. Note the use of very high amp test lights to test very high current draw grounding and power circuits.

Howto perform charging system voltage drop test

In addition to the car not turning over, the fan runs constantly, the odometer reads dashes, Check engine light is on and theft light is fast blinking. I have a OBD reader (autel MD802) but it says it can't connect
^^^^The above symptom is a dead give away that the PCM isn't functioning. The key is to figure out WHY. IE is it because the PCM itself is bad or there's something that the PCM needs to function that's not there (power and ground). You are quickly getting to the point where a bad PCM is the only reasonable conclusion. So unless there's a weak power or ground that is good enough to light a computer safe test light but not good enough to power the PCM.

ForScan ODB2 scanner w ELM327 USB

Check out the above link. There's some information on how to re-purpose a salvage yard PCM. Consider checking car-part.com to see some sample prices for used PCM's. Note, a salvage yard PCM won't work without programming but it might give you a way to double check the work. IE, if the ODB2 scan tool is able communicate with the PCM this will prove that everything needed by a PCM to come alive is present.

Is it possible that during the work being done that the battery (or jumped) backwards?
 

mjcarguy

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Check out the above link. There's some information on how to re-purpose a salvage yard PCM. Consider checking car-part.com to see some sample prices for used PCM's. Note, a salvage yard PCM won't work without programming but it might give you a way to double check the work. IE, if the ODB2 scan tool is able communicate with the PCM this will prove that everything needed by a PCM to come alive is present.

Is it possible that during the work being done that the battery (or jumped) backwards?

Not sure what you mead about backward on the battery

I did a voltage drop test on the PCM harness ground wires - 25, 51,76,77, & 103. I took my multimeter, put the red lead on the back probe pin (used a T-pin) and the black probe on a copper wire that I attached to the negative battery terminal. Hope that was an acceptable way to do it

They were all 3.2 milivolts, which I am guessing is ok? I dont need to try and put the car in run to test do I?

Also, I took the case off the PCM, doesnt look like any visible signs of being fried, but I suppose that it could be and just not show any visible damage

Is there anything else to try? Otherwise, my assumption is I have 2 options: 1) try and find a re-manufactured PCM, or 2) take it to the mechanic and let them test.

I found this site, are they any good? They said they will program it Flagship one 2000 Ford mustang ECU my part number is XR3F-12A650-JC
 

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wmburns

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They were all 3.2 milivolts, which I am guessing is ok? I dont need to try and put the car in run to test do I?
Voltage drop testing with a VOM requires current flow to make the test work. The test doesn't tell anything useful if no current is flowing. So if you want to measure voltage drop with a VOM the test has to be done on a working circuit with all devices connected.

To test an inactive (or open wire circuit) requires external power and load (think test light). The incandescent test light acts as a current limiting load as well as a visual indication of current flow.

Going with a re-man unit is likely a good idea as any salvage yard unit needs to be re-programmed. So unless you have someone that can re-program the $ spent for a salvage yard PCM is mainly going to double check the rest of the car.

Note to anyone else reading this thread. IF going the salvage yard route and it's possible to purchase a matching cluster from the SAME salvage yard car, it is possible to re-program PATS keys using the ForScan software (note ForScan is not able to re-program a cluster that is not already married to the PCM).
 
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mjcarguy

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Ok i re-did the voltage drop test, this time with the Key on. PCM connected,

#25 = 53.8 mv
#51 = 78.2 mv
#76 = 78.5 mv
#77 = 78.6 mv
#103 = 78.6 mv

does that change your thoughts on the PCM being bad vs a bad ground?
 

wmburns

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From the voltage drop test the generally accepted limit is 250 mv. All of your readings are much lower than this limit. So based upon your measurements the grounds appear more than good enough.

IMO it's important to double check the work to make sure that nothing is being overlooked. Replacing a PCM is a big deal. This goes double if the repair does not resolve the problem. The costs of a mistake (or wrong test result) go up from this point forward.

Your opening posts stated that the check engine light is on. Does the check engine light go out during cranking? If it does this indicates that the PCM is receiving a CKP signal. This is signs of life in the PCM.

Does the cooling fan still run all the time at key on?

If this were my car, I would also prefer to test to see IF an ODB2 scanner will also communicate with the Cluster (IC). What this would do is check the car's communication network for basic operation. I believe that you have a high end scanner so talking to other modules should be within it's capabilities.

Note, the ForScan software can also talk to other modules such as the cluster and ABS module.
 

mjcarguy

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Your opening posts stated that the check engine light is on. Does the check engine light go out during cranking? If it does this indicates that the PCM is receiving a CKP signal. This is signs of life in the PCM.

Does the cooling fan still run all the time at key on?

If this were my car, I would also prefer to test to see IF an ODB2 scanner will also communicate with the Cluster (IC). What this would do is check the car's communication network for basic operation. I believe that you have a high end scanner so talking to other modules should be within it's capabilities.

Note, the ForScan software can also talk to other modules such as the cluster and ABS module.

The check engine light goes off when I crank the engine, the cooling fan runs continuously when Key is in on position.
I was able to use the scanner and communicate with the ABS module. I could access the ABS module, but didnt see anything for the Cluster (instrument cluster correct)

I did manage to get a code when I tried scanning (I can either do OBDII or Scan) with my reader

It gave me a U1 262 SCP data link fault error :shrug:


I didnt mention it before, as I didnt think it was related, but before putting the car away last fall, Sometimes when using the wipers, they would just stop half-way while driving.
 

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wmburns

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The U1262 DTC code is huge. It points to a problem with the SCP communications network. Remember that the PCM and the cluster must exchange information at initial key on. Without this exchange the anti-theft (PATS) system will never "prove out".

I now believe that the PCM is actually alive. This is based upon the fact that all powers and grounds are good. And the fact that the check engine light comes on at key on and goes out during cranking. Plus the presence of the 5 volt reference voltage at the TPS which comes from the PCM.

Has key on power been confirmed at fuse F2.31?

The PCM, RCM, IC, GEM, and ABS are all on the SCP network. IF one of these devices has malfunctioned in such a way as to block SCP communications I could see this creating the reported symptoms.

How to trouble shoot? IMO this can be a very difficult problem to trouble shoot. There are a whole series of pin point tests in the Ford service manual to trouble shoot the car's communication network. The tests are somewhat involved and very detailed. IMO if I were doing this work, I would lean heavily on the visual inspection method before resorted to a ton of labor intensive. To me that fact this problem started after a long storage period should not be over looked. Think water or rodent activity.

If this were my car, one of the next things to do is to disconnect each of the modules using the SCP network and see if this will make the U1262 DTC code go away. The idea here is if disconnecting one module makes the U1262 go away that gives a module to focus trouble shooting towards. Likely I would start with the ABS module as it's usually easy to reach.

Fasten your seat belts. The good news is that $$ wasn't spent on a PCM that may not solve the problem (note it could still turn out to be the PCM).
 

mjcarguy

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The U1262 DTC code is huge. It points to a problem with the SCP communications network. Remember that the PCM and the cluster must exchange information at initial key on. Without this exchange the anti-theft (PATS) system will never "prove out".

I now believe that the PCM is actually alive. This is based upon the fact that all powers and grounds are good. And the fact that the check engine light comes on at key on and goes out during cranking. Plus the presence of the 5 volt reference voltage at the TPS which comes from the PCM.

Has key on power been confirmed at fuse F2.31?

Key on power at F2.31 is 12.76 volts. I went back through the wiring and found this (see photo) its the body wiring harness that goes to the CCRM harness, the a/c motor, a few other stops in the area, and then I think ultimately into the PCM. Looks like the shielding got stripped, and probably some rust/water damage. Looks like the #6 spot on the harness ( not sure about the main color but looks like an orange stripe)

I think there is enough wire that I could repair it, would a butt connector work? Dorman conduct-tite connector

I am going to keep looking for anything else, and also try your suggestion of disconnecting the modules.
 

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wmburns

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I think there is enough wire that I could repair it
From the picture it appears that only the insulation is damaged. If so, the only repair needed is to wrap with electrically tape or use liquid electrical tape.

If you are going to repair using a butt connector, use the water proof version.

Or learn how to solder. But again I wouldn't hesitate to simply repair just the insulation.

Since you have reported a problem with the wipers, consider the wiper delay is a feature of the GEM. Don't over look the possibility of water/rodent damage behind the dash.
 

arctic beast

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Hello - First time posting. I need help with my '00 v6. some background: I started having some trouble with starting it last fall ( having to let it crank a few times before it it would start). I put it away for the winter, putting a battery tender on to keep it from going dead.

Fast forward to a few weeks ago, I went to try and start it, and all it would do is crank but never turn over. I know that you need fuel, oxygen, and a spark to get an engine going, I now i was getting air, and the starter seemed fine, so i checked the fuel. I replaced the fuel pump and fuel filter, went to start it up again, and... you guessed it, wouldn't start. (Before you hassle me for diagnosis by swapping parts, I checked with a few neighbors that are mechanics we checked the fuel pressure prior and there was none).

In addition to the car not turning over, the fan runs constantly, the odometer reads dashes, Check engine light is on and theft light is fast blinking. I have a OBD reader (autel MD802) but it says it can't connect. I have read other posts on the forum, so I started checking all the fuses (engine and under dash) I tested for power at F2.2, F2.8 & F2.34. Those all have power with Key on.

I checked the CCRM, I have power at pin 12, 24, 10, but not on pin 8. I have voltage at the Inertia switch as well

I have checked the grounds to see if they are loose - The one by the battery, the one by the radiator/ air intake, the one by the under dash fuse box, the one in the trunk, and the one by the PCM.

what else am I missing?
Usually it is CCRM, very typically, or could be crank sensor!! replace crank/ cam sensors??
 

wmburns

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Usually it is CCRM, very typically, or could be crank sensor!! replace crank/ cam sensors??
Just wondering. Have you even read this thread before posting? Are you thinking just because the solution to YOUR problem as a new CCRM that it's the solution to everyone else's problem?

This problem is not the CCRM as all of the outputs of the CCRM have been confirmed with real tests (power into fuses F2.2 and F2.8 and at the PCM power pins).

In the same manner this isn't a CKP sensor problem as the PCM is able to "see" a signal from the CKP sensor (check engine light goes out during cranking).

Telling someone to replace a part because it follows a perceived "pattern failure" (on a guess) is just another facet of "parts changing" towards a solution. Don't change parts on a guess. Test!