Cold Air vs. More Air

01mgvert · Aug 10, 2004

I know that there is a lot of debate about the air silencer, whether to remove it, keep it, or shorten it. How about removing the air box? Rather than worry about grabbing air that is a few degrees cooler, allow the air filter to have access to more air. For example, the Steeda High Flow Air kit is largely open, except for a metal plate protecting the air filter from the heat of the engine. Has anyone tried to run with an open air filter? What were the results?

dromeda · Aug 10, 2004

You could always take it out and see if you notice any difference...

01mgvert · Aug 10, 2004

dromeda said:
You could always take it out and see if you notice any difference...

That's the plan but I wondered if anyone else had done it.

Gearbanger 101 · Aug 10, 2004

Ehhh, spend the extra money and feed it into the fender well. Cool air carries more oxygen molecules within the same volume than warm air, which in turn makes more power. You won't see a huge jump in power, but why sell yourself short?

twogts4us · Aug 10, 2004

Unless your forcing air into the engine (via a turbo or sc), you'd want it to be freely able to suck air. Part of the purpose of the air box is to promote that ability and to cut down on turbulence. IMO, these heat shields really don't do much more than shine.
It is for these reasons that, just last night, I put the air box back on my 02. The shorten silencer is still off of it, but it'll will likely be going back on as well. The reason? - If there is some cooler air to be had, it will be in the fender.
What you really don't want is an "in the fender" CAI. (an "in the fender MAF" is the exception, since the airflow thru the MAF is not 'misdirected' by plumbing.) When you start routing the channel of the air then slam it into the MAF at varying angles depending on how you twist the MAF (yeah, some people do this) to screw with the computer, you're just asking for trouble. If you know what you're doing and have access to a dyno and have the money to get a custom tune, then more power to ya.
Some of the fastest cars are running the simplest setups.
Incidently, if you do want to try running an open filter, you'll need to make a spacer to take up the space that the box lip occupied (so the clamp is still able to clamp the air filter to the MAF). I made a simple one out of cardboard, cut out in a donut shape, and electrical tape to clean up the ragged edges. I know, sounds kinda lame, but it was just a spacer and was completely hidden anyway. Plus it was what I had on hand!

NicksBullitt · Aug 10, 2004

Hmmmm.......or you could make sure, when you purchase a CAI, that you purchase a MAF that is calibrated to compensate for the different angle and volume of airflow. No doubt there is cooler air in the fenderwell, but if you feed the MAF with different air flow characteristics then it will in turn tell the computer to make the incorrect adjustments.

My .02.........Modifying the sock air box, silencer, or whatever is going to give the stock MAF a reading that is out of optimum range, because you have changed the air delivery. Buy a MAF with whatever pre-MAF airflow adjustments you make, so that the MAF reads the increased volume of cooler, faster, and more turbulent air correctly.

BTW......I recommend Densecharger, Full CAI kit up to the throttle body with 95mm MAF bench flow tested and calibrated for the setup, Noticeable SOTP improvement.

Craig Mack · Aug 10, 2004

My Anderson CAI relocates the MAF into the fenderwell. Gives me mAAhd Hp yO!!!!!!!!!!1111111111111 CeRaMiC cOaTeD plAYA.

Gearbanger 101 · Aug 10, 2004

NicksBullitt said:
No doubt there is cooler air in the fenderwell, but if you feed the MAF with different air flow characteristics then it will in turn tell the computer to make the incorrect adjustments.

This statement seems very contradicting to me

? How would the computer be making incorrect adjustment based on reading cooler air from inside the fender? That's the purpose of a Mass Airflow meter. It’s not like it’s getting cooler air from the inner fender, then changing after it enters the engine compartment. There's no real trick behind it. Cooler denser air carries more oxygen, which in turn causes the MAF meter to signal the computer to increase fuel delivery, resulting in...............more power! Pretty Basic.

01mgvert · Aug 10, 2004

I drove my car tonight with the open air filter (minus the air box). It ran fine but I could not tell if it had any more power. It's interesting that the better aftermarket MAFs, like Pro-M and Granatelli, use open air filters. On the other hand, it is hard to argue with basic chemistry: cold air is more dense with oxygen molecules (previous post). But, I wonder how much colder is the air in the fenderwell: 5 degrees, 10 degrees?

ADRENLN · Aug 11, 2004

that would be fine ifthe air in the fender was def. cooler, but i think it is prob. only a few degrees cooler. after driving for a while there is probably not much difference at all.

GinoGT · Aug 11, 2004

For the most part, all this cold air crap and wasting time wondering what to do with the air filter is just You can sit and analyze all you want, if you feel better that you're getting 3 more oxygen molecules than stock, go for it.

As I see it: just put a K&N in there and be done with it. There's bigger fish to fry like headers, cams, gears, etc. than to screw around with an air filter.

As for those systems that put a bend in front of the MAF: just don't do it. The MAF won't work properly like that. (And to open a whole other can of beans: the MAF is a sensor, not a performance part. Replace it when you peg the stock ones, not before that. Most gains shown by aftermarket meters are from how they trick the computer into running lean.)

twogts4us · Aug 11, 2004

GinoGT said:
For the most part, all this cold air crap and wasting time wondering what to do with the air filter is just You can sit and analyze all you want, if you feel better that you're getting 3 more oxygen molecules than stock, go for it.

As I see it: just put a K&N in there and be done with it. There's bigger fish to fry like headers, cams, gears, etc. than to screw around with an air filter.

As for those systems that put a bend in front of the MAF: just don't do it. The MAF won't work properly like that. (And to open a whole other can of beans: the MAF is a sensor, not a performance part. Replace it when you peg the stock ones, not before that. Most gains shown by aftermarket meters are from how they trick the computer into running lean.)

GinoGT, what the hell are you talking about? I don't know what you got, but I dynoed with 5 more oxygen molecules than stock.

Seriously guys, GinoGT is right on here. Learn from what he said above or learn from my mistakes (see my 02's sig below - "85mm C&L MAF removed").

GinoGT · Aug 11, 2004

twogts4us said:
GinoGT, what the hell are you talking about? I don't know what you got, but I dynoed with 5 more oxygen molecules than stock.

Seriously guys, GinoGT is right on here. Learn from what he said above or learn from my mistakes (see my 02's sig below - "85mm C&L MAF removed").

Damn, I bet you could feel those 5 molecules too!

I had a MAC cold air intake (even a MAC 70mm TB).....what I learned: MAC's quality on the TB sucks, and screwing around with that stuff is just a waste of time.

You want to play with stuff in front of your throttle body? Then make it a turbo, supercharger, or a nitrous jet. Otherwise, move along.

chile02 · Aug 11, 2004

cool air

I have a 2002 GT, IM in the military, when I lived in new york I noticed my engine ran a little nicer with the cold air going in and seem to me to pick up as soon as I punched it, I also got alot nicer gas mixture when I moved to West Texas and have the hot desert air it doent feel the same, I also have the K&N air charger kit,, kep it as cool as possible

damacman · Aug 11, 2004

Although I would also concur with Gino, most folks look at a Cold Air Intake because it is relatively inexpensive and can give a little bang for the buck. I also have a MAC CAI, but I'm still using mine.

After reading on this board (and others) how useless the kits were, and how the bend in front of the MAF caused the motor to run rich, I began to do a little investigating. Yep, running a finger inside the exhaust pipe revealed a black sooty deposit as was reported - proof that the motor was indeed running rich.

First thing I did was to remove the front part of the intake pipe and cut the bend off entirely. I then affixed the air filter directly in front of the MAF and called it good. As it was spring time, the car ran WAY MO' BETTER! But, the moment it got over 90 degrees, I could tell the car was more sluggish. More research -- OK, now I'm pulling REALLY hot air from the engine compartment into the intake. Not good for making power . . .

The next thing I did was to a little research on the fabled DarkWolf Mod - hey let me find the elbow I cut off so I can try this! I bought a second silicone rubber dealy and clamped it so that the MAF is rotated 90 degrees towards the motor. This worked equally as well as did the open element under the hood, but performs the same no matter what the heat. Now, this is the way it has been ever since.

Had I known what I know about this know, I would've spent alot less time jacking with this silly thing and moved onto something far more important though!

Gearbanger 101 · Aug 11, 2004

As far as the bend in the pipe in front of the MAF meter....if it's such a big concern, why don't you just rotate the meter so that the sample tube is in line with the outside edge of the bend, where the high airflow point would be, just like the big boys do.....problem solved.

It’s nothing I have to worry about since my car is still Speed Density.

I’ll take my smooth bend homemade 3” inner fender well and 9” conical K&N over the stock accordion shaped inlet tube and puny flat panel filter any day!

mogs01gt · Aug 11, 2004

I will take Velocity over more air and cold air any day of the week.

Velocity meaning the speed at which the air enters my intake.

01mgvert · Aug 11, 2004

Anyone else remove the airbox? My car seems to be running fine. It has been cold here in Minnesota though so its hard to tell if the heated air in the engine bay will hurt performance. I like that fact that my engine has access to more air but I suppose that could cause it to run leaner. I guess there is no perfect solution, short of forced air induction.

jmichalicek · Aug 11, 2004

01mgvert said:
I drove my car tonight with the open air filter (minus the air box). It ran fine but I could not tell if it had any more power. It's interesting that the better aftermarket MAFs, like Pro-M and Granatelli, use open air filters. On the other hand, it is hard to argue with basic chemistry: cold air is more dense with oxygen molecules (previous post). But, I wonder how much colder is the air in the fenderwell: 5 degrees, 10 degrees?

There was a thread awhile back where someone actually tested this. There was like a 7-10 degree difference in temps at idle. At 15mph it was only like 3 deg difference. I know I have always heard you gain about 1hp at the motor for each 10 deg drop in air temp. So assuming that's close to accurate, you gain between 1 and 1/3 hp at the motor.

GinoGT · Aug 11, 2004

The best setup to have is an open air filter (in the stock location) with the passenger headlight removed. The top 2V N/A drag racers have proven to pick up as much as 1mph through the traps.

Of course, that's only legit at the track.

Cold Air vs. More Air

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