degreeing cams?

DropTopPony said:

the bolts loosen up and the center walks causing ptv etc...my builder steenracing won't use them unless you insist. It is a flawed design...modcamponents makes a far superior product.

http://fidanza-is-crap.com/

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'01 Steed said:

Yep, Fidanza gears simply do not cut it. The fasteners used to secure the adjustment simply do not have enough bearing area and do not provide enough clamp force to do the job. I have no idea why they didn't use a larger fastener head. It looks to me like there's plenty of room for it.
This is a design flaw.

BTW, you can grind off the key on your stock gears and adjust from there. The key is only used for assembly aid at Romeo/Windsor. After the bolt is tightened, the key serves no purpose. It is NOT a stop. The monsterous bolt and washer provide all the clamp load needed to hold the gear in place.


LaserRed01GT knows what he's talking about!

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LaserRed01GT said:

My God there is some misinformation on this website. You guys are confusing degreeing a camshaft with finitely adjusting a camshaft after it has been degreed. Make no mistake about it, a camshaft MUST BE DEGREED! It's not an option, it's not if you feel like it or not, it's not "well a couple of guys said they don't degree their cams.", it's an absoltute necessity. BTW, if you guys have actually talked to people that have installed camshafts in motors without degreeing them, do not EVER take their advice on cars or engines ever ever again.

Crane Cam's explantion, and it's a good one:

The term "Degreeing In Your Camshaft" means you are making sure the camshaft's position in the engine coincides with that of the crankshaft, so that their rotation is synchronized. This is the only way you will know if the rise and fall of the pistons properly matches the opening and closing of the valves, so the engine will run properly. A few degrees of misalignment can affect the engine's operation dramatically.

If the circumstances were perfect, one would only need to line up the marks on the timing chain sprockets and the cam would be degreed. In reality, you are dealing with a group of components (the camshaft, crankshaft, timing chain, and sprockets), all with their own standards and tolerances. If these tolerances stack up against you, it could throw you out of alignment. Without degreeing the cam you can never be sure that the parts are in correct position. If you have the tools and expertise, we always recommend that the camshaft's position in the engine be degreed in.

Is There More Than One Way to Degree a Cam, and Which is Better?

Currently there are two popular methods for degreeing a cam: the centerline method, and the duration at .050" lift method. We believe it is far better to degree the camshaft with either method than not to degree the cam at all; but of the two methods, the duration at .050" lift is much more accurate.

The main problem with the centerline method is it has you finding the theoretical centerline of the intake and/or exhaust lobe and line up on it. It makes the basic assumption that the lobe you are checking is symmetrical, with its opening side being the exact same shape and size as the closing side of the lobe. The truth is that most modern lobes are asymmetrical, with the opening side of the lobe being much more aggressive and the closing side being more gentle.

Therefore, when you attempt to locate the middle (or centerline) of the asymmetrical lobe there is an automatic error factor. It could be as little as 2? off or as much as 6?, depending on the exact lobe shape and the procedure used during the degreeing operation. Neither does it verify that the camshaft has been properly ground with the correct duration lobes, which can drastically affect performance. Since the duration at .050" lift method is not affected by the asymmetrical lobe design, we believe it is the more accurate way to degree.

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hotmustang331 said:

With ALL tolerences going to the "advanced" side of the entire engine operation, the engine STILL WILL NOT HAVE PTV CONTACT WITH VT STG 1 CAMS! This isnt just a couple of guys not degreeing their stg 1 cams....this is 95% of them. If you dont skip a tooth and install the cams straight up, you wont have any issues. End of story....you can quote general statements about how things work and put everyone in fear, but in reality its just not going to happen.

Iv had this debate before...guys spent hours searching ALL over the web to find SOMEONE who had PTV contact with properly installed VT's stg 1 cams. Guess what, they couldnt find one....then Scott, co owner of VT engines came in and backed up what I was saying. They recommend degreeing, just as I do...but they admit that there has been 0 cases of properly installed VT stg 1 cams having any issues whatsoever.

Look, I totally understand what your saying....but saying that noone should listen to my advice because I say you dont HAVE to degree the cams on THESE particular cams is rediculous. With all due respect, you have no idea what your talking about when it comes to these cams and their specs.
Iv been around here a while, iv seen nurmous threads accross the web with guys installing them...you have your shop and a few guys you know. You have the correct mentality in the sence that you dont have any experiance with these cams and recommend to degree them...fine.
But dont diss me and the other people like that....you dont have the specific experiance required to make that call. You have your opinion...thats it.

Any other cams and im fully with you....degree them unless you want to run the risk of PTV. With 262s there have been no cases that I know of, but since I dont follow those nor do I have any experiance with them, im not going to say that "you absolutly have 0 chance of PTV wit these cams". Im also not going to diss someone who knows about them and claims that its not required. Ill just stick to my recommendation to degree them . Getting personal is uncalled for and wrong

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hotmustang331 said:

With ALL tolerences going to the "advanced" side of the entire engine operation, the engine STILL WILL NOT HAVE PTV CONTACT WITH VT STG 1 CAMS! This isnt just a couple of guys not degreeing their stg 1 cams....this is 95% of them. If you dont skip a tooth and install the cams straight up, you wont have any issues. End of story....you can quote general statements about how things work and put everyone in fear, but in reality its just not going to happen.

Iv had this debate before...guys spent hours searching ALL over the web to find SOMEONE who had PTV contact with properly installed VT's stg 1 cams. Guess what, they couldnt find one....then Scott, co owner of VT engines came in and backed up what I was saying. They recommend degreeing, just as I do...but they admit that there has been 0 cases of properly installed VT stg 1 cams having any issues whatsoever.

Look, I totally understand what your saying....but saying that noone should listen to my advice because I say you dont HAVE to degree the cams on THESE particular cams is rediculous. With all due respect, you have no idea what your talking about when it comes to these cams and their specs.
Iv been around here a while, iv seen nurmous threads accross the web with guys installing them...you have your shop and a few guys you know. You have the correct mentality in the sence that you dont have any experiance with these cams and recommend to degree them...fine.
But dont diss me and the other people like that....you dont have the specific experiance required to make that call. You have your opinion...thats it.

Any other cams and im fully with you....degree them unless you want to run the risk of PTV. With 262s there have been no cases that I know of, but since I dont follow those nor do I have any experiance with them, im not going to say that "you absolutly have 0 chance of PTV wit these cams". Im also not going to diss someone who knows about them and claims that its not required. Ill just stick to my recommendation to degree them . Getting personal is uncalled for and wrong

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hotmustang331 said:

There we have it Straight from VT .

LOL Saleen...you know me, im the one with the hocky mask .

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04YELLOWGT said:

... He said it is reccomended to get the full benfit of them but not required.

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hotmustang331 said:

There we have it Straight from VT

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LaserRed01GT said:

Wrong. There NEVER was a design problem with Fidanza gears. You can post all the link to threads you want. I have personal experience with installing them and I have never had a problem, nor has any shop I know that has correctly installed them. I've talked to Fidanza and they decided to make the cam gears beefier, not because they had to by any means, but because people that shouldn't be anywhere near a motor were putting these on.

You can tell by your pics that the gear was sheared due to incorrect installtion. Did you use blue Loctite like you are supposed to?

You have the same mentality as the people that sue a business because they spilled hot coffee on themselves.

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SaleenGT2001 said:

i wasnt refering to you as the ass hat, lol

i've been looking in al the closets in my house before i go to bed to make sure that nobody is coming to get me while i sleep
i wear this mask to scare away anyone that tries to mess with me
View attachment 410023

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04YELLOWGT said:

I figured that would end this argument. Thanks for the advice though guys. The engine and cams should be here in the next week or two and in my car within another week or two. So Ill have new numbers in about a month.

One question though, should I get like a base/mail order tune for the first 1000 miles I put on it before I get it dyno tuned or will it be alright with the tune thats on it?

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LaserRed01GT said:

Once again, and I'm sure it still won't sink in , degreeing camshafts simply means getting the timing (VE timing) of the camshaft synchronized with the rotation of the crankshaft. You DO NOT have to break out the dial inidicator and degree wheel for that to be considered "degreeing" a cam. You CANNOT just expect the magic camshaft fairy to come down and sprinkle magic dust on the engine so that the cranshaft keyway is at 12 o'clock and that the crank sprocket and timing chain timing marks at least line up.

We put a degree wheel on every single camshaft that we install. People that bring me cars want their motors done right. Degreeing a camshaft with a degree wheel eliminates any tolerance abnomalities or wear in the timing chains, cam gears, tensioaners, and sprockets. Additionally when people have their heads milled (even just .010" on an aluminum mod head) it will place additional slack in the chain. All of this can be especially exacerbated dut to the fact that these have two cams. Additionally degreeing the camshafts optimizes the way they will perform and it makes tuning the motor much more precise and efficient because you I have verfied with a dial indicator the gross lift, IVO point, and IVC point.

hot mustang331, I wasn't aware that you knew Matt or myself personally. How is it that you presume to know what my experience is with these mod motors or motors in general. BTW, what professional technical certifications do you hold, how many times have you installed camshafts in these mod motors, what is the extent of your technical bacground?

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