Dr_elusives Swap Question and Progress Thread V 2.0

Mike SVOR · Apr 14, 2005

gio_momma said:
Yeah...that would be laughable if I had said it. I never said anything about the quality of the wires.

gio_momma said:
All the stock grounding stuff works just fine for a battery in the stock place.

The stock stuff as it came from the factory is more than adequate...
....If you have good factory cables, that's more than adequate.

Yeah...just forget what Ford says...they don't know what they're talking about either....

never say never......

gio_momma · Apr 14, 2005

Mike SVOR said:
Saying dumb statements like "oh, the factory didn't use high quality wires" is in it's face laughable.

I never said this^^^^

I never directly referred to the "quality" of the factory wire, let alone say that it wasn't high-quality. Some is, some isn't.

I said that if the factory wiring is in good shape, it's more than adequate. It is.

I said that if the battery isn't relocated to the rear of the car, the factory ground configuration is more than adequate. It is.

Mike SVOR · Apr 14, 2005

gio_momma said:
And here's a hint just for you Mike...accesories run by the ECU, like solenoids, injectors or relays (any ECU) are "pull to ground". They get B+ through the switch (race deal) or relay (street stuff) and the ground side is switched by the ECU, via the case ground.

Are you saying that the injector harness doesn't have a ground wire hanging off of it near the #4 injector?

gio_momma · Apr 14, 2005

Mike SVOR said:
Are you saying that the injector harness doesn't have a ground wire hanging off of it near the #4 injector?

Cars have all kinds of ground wires Mike...turbos don't have them for any year...give me a year and model and I'll tell you what it's for.

gio_momma · Apr 14, 2005

Tough question?

I gotta go do grown-up stuff...post it here and I'll research it for you when I get back.

Mike SVOR · Apr 14, 2005

gio_momma said:
I never said this^^^^

ok,ok. You never said it word for word, but I forgot to put the "~" sign in front of it.
How's this: ~If the factory cables weren't sufficient, do you think that Ford would've used them?

Or how bout this: ~If the intercooler wasn't sufficient, do you think that Ford would've used it?

Or this: ~If the factory injectors weren't sufficient, do you think that Ford would've used them?

Let me give ya a little tip Joe, It's called Hot Rodding. Improving the performance of a vehicle by finding better quality parts.

Sure 4 gauge works. But I know for a fact that welding cable works better.
Hell, I use a 4 gauge welding cable for my supercharged 90's alternator. I saw a huge difference in charging when I was running my twin electric fans.
I've seen the conversion done on a 13.8:1 compression chevy 350 and it started way better.
Try starting a 13:1 compression big block on 4 gauge wires. Let me know what you smell when you crank on it. lol. [is that smoke?] hehe

zero gauge is an awesome performance mod for anyone's starting system.

If you don't like it, that's fine with me, but don't act like everyone is retarded because they use it.

If everyone had solid motor mounts, they wouldn't need grounds. Which is the same reason you can get away with such small wiring to your motor.

Mike SVOR · Apr 14, 2005

gio_momma said:
Tough question?

I gotta go do grown-up stuff...post it here and I'll research it for you when I get back.

lol, Joe, I already know where it goes. See, I don't have to research this. I built the car myself remember? I went to the library and scanned the book, brought it home and wired the car up.

Don't bother researching something I already know the answer to.

Maybe you need a picture?
Or should I just call Painless Wiring and have them send me a new harness?
lol

gio_momma · Apr 14, 2005

EEC-IV doesn't ground to the motor. They ground directly to the battery and/or the body. Tear into a few dozen of them and pin them out...maybe crack a book or something...seriously dude...put down the beer and actually go DO something and you'll (hopefully) understand what I've been trying to tell you.

What you're looking at is most likely a guage ground.

Retarded for using 0 gauge on a four banger? Not really...a little silly and a little too subject to the nonsense you hear from complete wanker like you...maybe. I used to use 0 on the Pinto before I actually learned how that stuff worked...took it out and replaced it with 2 guage.

I said the wagon had solid mounts already. That said (already)...that has nothing at all to do with whether I can "get away" with only running a 2 ga starter cable. If there was going to be a (resistance) problem, it would happen at the point of highest resistance...not the lowest one. Running a HUGE ground (like the whole frame) would/could only cause the positive cable to smoke...if the ground was too small for whatever draw was on the positive cable (say grounding the starter with a 10 guage wire for example), the 10 guage would smoke, not the positive 2 guage wire.

If you don't understand that, then you're even more lost than I already thought you were. You seem to like arguing rather incontrovertible facts.

Wire needs only to be as big as it needs to be to carry the load...nothing bigger. Once it's big enough, then you can go 100X larger and you won't get one more volt or one more amp out of it.

You'd probably get more performance from joining AA.

Mike SVOR · Apr 14, 2005

Like I said,
Don't listen to Joe here.

Just use the zero gauge wire method and you'll be fine.

gio_momma · Apr 14, 2005

Mike SVOR said:
Like I said,
Don't listen to Joe here.

Just use the zero gauge wire method and you'll be fine.

Yeah, especially if you need to add ballast anyways...LOL

Mike SVOR · Apr 14, 2005

See Joe, People here actually drive their cars on the road. We're not talking about some trailer queen that makes a pass and then gets shut down. Street cars actually experience Heat Soak.

Try holding a 4 gauge starter wire while the motor is being cranked after making a long trip.
It's worthless.
I thought they taught everyone that in 9th grade auto mechanics class. You must've missed that day.

Guess what gauge LIGENFELTER uses on their kits?
I guess he's drunk and an Ahole too?

Get a grip man.

16vstang · Apr 14, 2005

Just to put my two cents in on the hole grounding debate here, I think that with thease cars the grounding makes a huge differance. I just had a very weird problem with my 91 notch, It would at random times just lose spark to #1 and 4 or 2 and 3. So put in new coils, module wires ground wire from batt ect.. Went away for a wile and then boom started agian. So took some advice from a friend and got some wire grounded the injectors, ignition module, coils, starter, and tranny. And WOW what a differance.

gio_momma · Apr 14, 2005

16vstang said:
Just to put my two cents in on the hole grounding debate here, I think that with thease cars the grounding makes a huge differance. I just had a very weird problem with my 91 notch, It would at random times just lose spark to #1 and 4 or 2 and 3. So put in new coils, module wires ground wire from batt ect.. Went away for a wile and then boom started agian. So took some advice from a friend and got some wire grounded the injectors, ignition module, coils, starter, and tranny. And WOW what a differance.

A small amount of goat's blood would have given you the same result.

I should elaborate...I think what you did was an example of the "fallacy of causality" if remember the name correctly. Two things are happen at or near the same time, the first one must have caused the second one.

The ground for the injectors goes directly through pins 20, 40 and 60, same for the ignition ground. There's no electrical connection whatsoever between the injectors, ignition and the engine...the injectors and or ignition will operate exactly the same laying on the garage floor. The metal-to-metal contact between a TFI and a distributor is there purely as a heatsink. They work just fine hanging in mid-air...same for a DIS module.

gio_momma · Apr 14, 2005

Mike SVOR said:
See Joe, People here actually drive their cars on the road. We're not talking about some trailer queen that makes a pass and then gets shut down. Street cars actually experience Heat Soak.

Try holding a 4 gauge starter wire while the motor is being cranked after making a long trip.
It's worthless.
I thought they taught everyone that in 9th grade auto mechanics class. You must've missed that day.

Guess what gauge LIGENFELTER uses on their kits?
I guess he's drunk and an Ahole too?

Get a grip man.

Didn't know him...I know he wasn't a very good driver and he was a cheater. The former cost him his life, the latter cost him respect. That guy crossed the line on his roof more often than on his tires. He's "lucky" he didn't kill more people than just himself...they should have pulled his license after the first number of crashes and he'd still be around.

You can talk all the trash you want about me and Ohm...I'll just keep refuting you with plain and simple facts. 4 guage is plenty for a short cable, 2 is fine for a long one. I suppose if you had a 600+ inch Hemi, you'd need 0 cable...oh yeah, no we don't...LOL...I just got done wiring one...just click on the little dude below to see it.

Cool car, fires right up. They've been driving the wheels off it (fully registered and insured) since last weekend. The guy doesn't even own a trailer.

Mike SVOR · Apr 15, 2005

gio_momma said:
Didn't know him...I know he wasn't a very good driver and he was a cheater. The former cost him his life, the latter cost him respect. That guy crossed the line on his roof more often than on his tires. He's "lucky" he didn't kill more people than just himself...they should have pulled his license after the first number of crashes and he'd still be around.

You can talk all the trash you want about me and Ohm...I'll just keep refuting you with plain and simple facts. 4 guage is plenty for a short cable, 2 is fine for a long one. I suppose if you had a 600+ inch Hemi, you'd need 0 cable...oh yeah, no we don't...LOL...I just got done wiring one...just click on the little dude below to see it.

Cool car, fires right up. They've been driving the wheels off it (fully registered and insured) since last weekend. The guy doesn't even own a trailer.

Your the reason people have problems with their cars down the road.
2 gauge for a long cable? LMAO, Yea, if you think so. lol, Not!
2 gauge is what Walmart sells in their battery section for replacement cables.

Here's a perfect example: http://www.jegs.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prrfnbr=146672&prmenbr=361

This kit is the lowest quality kit that I would ever suggest to someone.
Notice the gauge cable used?
Now notice the amperage recommendation.
If you have a car with headlights, stereo, A/C, or any other voltage draining source, This cable wouldn't meet the requirements of the starter.
Ever hear of voltage drop Joe?
Maybe if you opened a book, you'd know about some of this stuff.
A wire can only pass it's given amount of amps to a destination. If you don't have the capacity to carry the amps through the wire, you will have voltage drop.
This causes dimming headlights, hot wires, burned starters.....

Obviously you have no clue as to what wire diameter passes which amount of amperage through it.

Once again,
Zero Gauge Welding Cable will get the job done.

lol, I can't believe your bitching about it weighing more.
Would you not buy a 100mm turbo because it weighs too much?

Seriously people, if you have questions about how to do the zero gauge welding cable upgrade, just Email me or PM me. Joe is being a hard-on lately and is seeming to destroy threads cause people won't do it his way all the time.

Later.....

Turbopit · Apr 15, 2005

Mike, I think you seriously need to crack open some books or SOMETHING to learn about how elec works. I could have one of the EE's in my office get on here and explain some of this stuff to you guys, but I just don't think it would be worth their time.

Do you understand that the Jeg's kit is one size "fits all"? If they bothered to figure out what size the cable actually needs to be, the customers who think bigger is better, would think it was sized to small and never buy their kit. Marketing, dude...

Mike SVOR · Apr 15, 2005

Turbopit said:
Mike, I think you seriously need to crack open some books or SOMETHING to learn about how elec works. I could have one of the EE's in my office get on here and explain some of this stuff to you guys, but I just don't think it would be worth their time.

Do you understand that the Jeg's kit is one size "fits all"? If they bothered to figure out what size the cable actually needs to be, the customers who think bigger is better, would think it was sized to small and never buy their kit. Marketing, dude...

Mike, It's called real world experience.
I have redone so many charging and starting systems I can't remember them all. ALL of them have seen improved starting and charging from going to my recommendations.

Here's a link to show how 4 gauge wire has More Than Double the voltage drop than zero gauge wire in a 6 or 10 foot config. http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm
Eg. Voltage drop of .4 compared to 1.1

I'm not pulling this stuff out of a hat here.

I've seen countless people go to a 1000 cca battery and show very little starting power gain. The problem is in the wire's capability to transfer the amperage to the starter.
Zero gauge welding cable all the way.

It's been PROVEN to start better. No mathematical calculation needed.

Mike SVOR · Apr 15, 2005

I guess these guys are wrong too?
http://www.racewiring.com/InstallPics.html

Picture perfect examples.
Professional wiring, done right the first time, and it will last for YEARS.

Turbopit · Apr 15, 2005

I see why some hang out at Stangnet where there's no one to "challenge" what you are preaching.

Are you familiar with the term "overkill"? Just because someone (anyone) uses "x" size wire, doesn't mean "x" sized wire is what EVERYONE needs or that isn’t big time overkill. When you are a relatively "large" company, you tend to oversize things like wire. This is because it usually isn't gonna hurt anything.

Why not just go ahead and run a 000 gauge cable from the + to everything on the car needing 12 volts and a 000 gauge gable from – to everything that needs a ground. Sensors, lighs, etc… Bigger is better, right? While your at it, go ahead and throw in a dual quad high rise Holly 1250 double pumper while your at it? Oh, and I’ll take a nice side of Mullet with my order please, thank you!

You only NEED as much “size” as you need. It’s SIMPLE. I’m not even sure what the argument is in this thread anymore.

Next someone will be saying “Well I have a 10,000 watt stereo, 6 batteries, and 4 alternators, so are you still gonna tell me to use small wire?”

No one is saying don’t use the proper sized wire, but some are getting a little carried away with bigger wire than they actually need. Then there is the whole grounding deal.

This paragraph is just flat out laughable.  I’m still trying to figure out how he “grounded” the injectors and what he thinks it actually did.

I just had a very weird problem with my 91 notch, It would at random times just lose spark to #1 and 4 or 2 and 3. So put in new coils, module wires ground wire from batt ect.. Went away for a wile and then boom started again. So took some advice from a friend and got some wire grounded the injectors, ignition module, coils, starter, and tranny. And WOW what a differance.

Do we need to get an EE who actually worked with the EEC to get in here an explain this? Again, I doubt he wants to waist his time either.

OK, back to doing the ELECTRICAL design for a large hospital, have fun in fantasy land, I here it’s nice this time of year.

Turbopit · Apr 15, 2005

Just to "lighten" things up a bit here's somehting form another forum I thought was funny.

The question (well, part of it):

In physics today, we were talking about how in parallel wiring, each device gets the total amount of power of the source. Does that hold true for car audio? So are my subs getting 1200 watts each or 600 watts each? Thanks.

and one of the responses:

no no, this is car audio electro physics. it's different from home and real world physics. you have to divide by two, then add 2/3 of the original wattage. each sub will then get double that power assuming you're running at a constant 17 volts with no added resistance and assuming there aren't capacitors wired inline. if that's not the case, the numbers get all screwed up, and it'll take you a month to get all the calculus figured out.

it's really just a big pain in the ass.

Dr_elusives Swap Question and Progress Thread V 2.0

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