engine build dilemma

NIKwoaC · Sep 2, 2010

Let's keep this civil guys.

IBTL

Gearbanger 101 · Sep 2, 2010

NikwoaC said:
IBTL

Don't these LSX swap threads always end up that way?

90lxcoupe · Sep 2, 2010

Gearbanger 101 said:
For anyone who wants to do this swap thinking they’ll make more power for less money and hassle….go right ahead. Just make sure you’ve got a slew of tech oriented buddies to bounce ideas off of when unseen issues arise (and they will). Don’t forget to also go into this with an abundance of patience, plenty of down time...

Ok, so how is this different from any other project? Aside from the johnny bolt ons, if you build something serious its going to take knowledge, expierience, patience, and problem solving skills. How bout when you get that SFI bellhousing that "bolts right on", then you install it, and the car wont shift? Then you take the trans out, and realize the bell is out of tolerance... what do you do then? you fix the problem, on a part that was installed "correctly" and was made for the application. Point being, there are problems with everything, ford parts, chevy parts, aftermarket stuff, when your going fast, nothings a true bolt on. its called hot rodding, been going on for years

Gearbanger 101 said:
...and a lucrative income to work with when you rocket past “low budgets swap” mark you’ve previously establish, because some guy on the internet that’s “e-spending” your money promised you big power levels, for peanuts.

Ok, so what parts are going to require this lucrative income exactly?

Shaolin Crane · Sep 2, 2010

Gearbanger 101 said:
Why would I say that? All someone needs to do is read one of your posts to realize you spend most of your time talking out of your hat and the rest of the time stirring the pot.

Huh? How many cars have you built from nothing? Thats what i thought. I forgot i just pulled all that stuff out of my ass. I'll make sure i keep you on speed dial when i need help with one of my projects

Shaolin Crane · Sep 2, 2010

90lxcoupe said:
Ok, so how is this different from any other project? Aside from the johnny bolt ons, if you build something serious its going to take knowledge, expierience, patience, and problem solving skills. How bout when you get that SFI bellhousing that "bolts right on", then you install it, and the car wont shift? Then you take the trans out, and realize the bell is out of tolerance... what do you do then? you fix the problem, on a part that was installed "correctly" and was made for the application. Point being, there are problems with everything, ford parts, chevy parts, aftermarket stuff, when your going fast, nothings a true bolt on. its called hot rodding, been going on for years

Ok, so what parts are going to require this lucrative income exactly?

That doesny happen in the world of gearbanger, all his projects work perfectly because he used all FORD parts. Everything starts on the first try, bolts dont strip out and his car is always the better for it.

90lxcoupe · Sep 2, 2010

im not tryin to get in a fight here, just trying to get some knowledge out for people who car to have a good read about a sick motor. Im not brand loyal for the simple fact that there cool motors that make great power naturally aspirated without spending 10g's.(if you build a 500+hp windsor you will spend at least that). The LS motor is really like a better verson of a SBF, thats why i think its cool.

NIKwoaC · Sep 2, 2010

90lxcoupe said:
im not tryin to get in a fight here, just trying to get some knowledge out for people who car to have a good read about a sick motor. Im not brand loyal for the simple fact that there cool motors that make great power naturally aspirated without spending 10g's.(if you build a 500+hp windsor you will spend at least that). The LS motor is really like a better verson of a SBF, thats why i think its cool.

It's what the SBF could have been. *sigh*

I'm actually growing more and more curious with the more I learn about the LS engine. I don't know if I'd ever have the heart to do a breed swap, but sometimes I think a F-Body would be fun...

Gearbanger 101 · Sep 2, 2010

90lxcoupe said:
Ok, so how is this different from any other project? Aside from the johnny bolt ons, if you build something serious its going to take knowledge, expierience, patience, and problem solving skills.

You misunderstand….I agree with you completely, it’s no different. This should be your rule of thumb with any involved project. But the fact remains there are still fewer required swap parts (custom or otherwise) needed for a 351W than there are for an LSX. And where the sky is the limit for the availability of swap and custom parts for the Windsor to Fox Body union, your choices are limited for the LSX.

90lxcoupe said:
Ok, so what parts are going to require this lucrative income exactly?

The powertrain, drivetrain, etc. It's funny to hear people quote these junkyard engines for a couple hundred dollars. It may be different where you live, but you're not going to pull a running, low mileage 6.0L truck engine out of an vehicle for less than $2,000-$3,000. Add another $1,000-$3,000 to that price for any late model LSX found in a Camaro/GTO/Corvette, etc simply because it's located between the strut towers of a sports car.

In one breath someone here talks about the 6.0L truck engine being had for peanuts....and in another talks about how if someone is "lucky" they'll pick up an LSX and T65 combo together. Now, I don't know where you're from, but no 6.0L truck I've ever seen was ever mated to a T56. Sure, you could find an old high mileage LS1 engine/trans package from an F-Body, but they're still going to be pricy and your chances of finding something low mileage, that's not run to rat **** at the local pick-n-pull are slim...especially when you consider even the newest LS1 is almost 10-years-old at this point. Which brings up another point....a 10-15 year old engine/trans is going to start to show its age....even if it's just been sitting around. Better make room in that budget for a little TLC....just in case.

And really...how much further ahead are you going to be, doing an engine swap with a 346ci LS1 at this point anyway? For what it would cost you to perform the swap, you could make the same, or more power with a H/C/I 302 and save yourself the swap cost.

I'm sure our definitions of lucrative differ, but in my experience your safest bet when building something "custom" like a LSX swap is to sit down, calculate everything you think you're going to need for a budget down to every little part and then double it. That'll get you in the ball park.

Shaolin Crane said:
Huh? How many cars have you built from nothing? Thats what i thought. I forgot i just pulled all that stuff out of my ass. I'll make sure i keep you on speed dial when i need help with one of my projects

I dunno....half a dozen complete custom build ups and ground up restorations. Add another dozen or so engine R&R's, trans swaps, body/paint work etc, etc to that figure for good measure during the 35-years I've been on this planet. Having a father (now retired) with a background in machine work, tool and dye, Class A mechanic (old license term) who was the head mechanic for a franchise of one of the largest, Nationally recognized transmission chains in North America for 20-years and then the head trans specialist for the local Ford Dealership for another 10 after that….all while running his own home business out of a well stocked garage at home leaves a person with some pretty big shoes to fill. I’m sure he’s forgotten more than I’ll ever know, but you’d be surprised on the knowledge you pick up and the projects you get yourself into alone the way.

...since we’re on the subject, how about yourself? What sort of automotive background have you got, or projects have you accomplished during the 5-years you’ve been out of high school?

Shaolin Crane said:
That doesny happen in the world of gearbanger, all his projects work perfectly because he used all FORD parts. Everything starts on the first try, bolts dont strip out and his car is always the better for it.

Is this sarcastic/pessimistic attitude forever going to be your "go-to" move when painted into a corner, or have you got anything relevant to add? You would be so much more credible sounding if you shelved the attitude once and a while.

But yes, now that you mention it.....most of my projects do turn out well, nearly everything starts on the first try, I rarely cross thread bolts and vehicles are always in better shape after I've worked on them. Thanks for pointing that out.

90lxcoupe said:
im not tryin to get in a fight here, just trying to get some knowledge out for people who car to have a good read about a sick motor. Im not brand loyal for the simple fact that there cool motors that make great power naturally aspirated without spending 10g's.(if you build a 500+hp windsor you will spend at least that). The LS motor is really like a better verson of a SBF, thats why i think its cool.

I take no offence and mean none in return. A good debate is always healthy.

Shaolin Crane · Sep 2, 2010

Gearbanger 101 said:
I dunno....half a dozen complete custom build ups and ground up restorations. Add another dozen or so engine R&R's, trans swaps, body/paint work etc, etc to that figure for good measure during the 35-years I've been on this planet. Having a father (now retired) with a background in machine work, tool and dye, Class A mechanic (old license term) who was the head mechanic for a franchise of one of the largest, Nationally recognized transmission chains in North America for 20-years and then the head trans specialist for the local Ford Dealership for another 10 after that….all while running his own home business out of a well stocked garage at home leaves a person with some pretty big shoes to fill. I’m sure he’s forgotten more than I’ll ever know, but you’d be surprised on the knowledge you pick up and the projects you get yourself into alone the way.

...since we’re on the subject, how about yourself? What sort of automotive background have you got, or projects have you accomplished during the 5-years you’ve been out of high school?

Well if we want to compare what our daddies taught us. My father is a no longer employed Ford Master Tech. (by his own choice to start his business) Worked for the toyota racing team long before it was called TRD. Was a 6 year canmpion of the havasu jetski races(built and tuned ALL his jet skis)
So i would say have done 3 Complete build ups on vehicles, My 2 mustangs, My 89 F150 (an 8.5 truck on 33" AT's) 10-15 Jet Skis all of which made in the the 175-200fwhp range on a 550cc 2 stroke) My 89XR600 that made 60rwhp. All 3 of my gopeds(laugh if you will but i was still on TGN and raced them professionally since age 12) The 2J swap 89 supra. LS1 Swap 240sx. few dozen rifles made from nothing, etc
Not to mention the thousands of projects i have helped my father with(both him teaching and myself)
Other things i have built, no from the ground up but done quite well, my current DD Making 357rwhp with a STOCK turbo.
Damn near rebuilt, minus hull work and paint for the most part, 81 laveycraft with a built 383 stroker And twin banks/rajay turbos
And now my history
Employed as a motorcycle mechanic at age 13 building anything from scooter motors(capable of 50mph+ to stroker cbr1000 motors making excess of 200hp)
Passing all my local engine/mechanical/chassis and automotive classes with a 95% or higher at the local community college BEFORE graduating high school a year early(laugh so i never went to UTI or any other "highly accredited" schools. Didnt have the money in high school. And i doubt i need to go back now.
Second guess what you want but im not taliking out of my ass

And now for the last part, im done, might as well end it before things get ugly and i get banned/warned/sternly talked to etc.

Adams91LX · Sep 2, 2010

I have no clue how to swap an LS motor... or what is needed...

But i ensure you from personal experience... Nothing fits, I had a "Straight forward" 1980 Mustang build... swapping everything from my wrecked 91 to the 80... nothing was perfect... most everything had to be massaged to fit, or something. That was a Ford to Ford, fox to fox, mustang to mustang swap... Anyway... The dash, the windows, the rear end, the brake lines, the parking brake, the cowl vent, the tranny cross-member, the taillights, fuel tank or straps, etc... It took me about six months to go from a completely empty shell, no doors, fenders, seats, carpet, fuel lines, brake lines... empty..

Be prepared to take your time and expect things not to fit...

-Adam

undercnstrction · Sep 3, 2010

in contrast to you guys, i have ABSOLUTELY ZERO experience building anything! ALL of my knowledge comes from what i've learned to this point by taking my GT apart and what people on a number of different websites just like this one are willing to help me with.

regarding the $$ required to build a 302, the farther i got into that research the more money it looked like it was going to take to build some decent power. quite a number of the people on this board said..."if i had to do it again, i'd build a 351. for the same money you get quite a bit more power". so i started to look at that route. the farther i got into that research i came across an article where someone stuffed a GM motor into fox coupe (don't remember if it was an LS1 or something else). they did next to nothing to the motor and it flat RIPPED! that started me on a different path. from what i've read, once again there is a less expensive route to more power. but again, i am basing this COMPLETELY off of what i've read from magaizines and websites.

as far as junkyard parts, if i happen to be there on the right day at the right time i can pull a 6.0 out of a truck and only pay $225 (it may be $250). that's a complete motor minus the wiring harness. i believe it's another $75-$100 with the harness. a trans, should i be lucky enough to find one will also run about $250. will it need some work, quite possibly. do they show up very often, not really. i can also pick up a 351 for the same price. for me, at least in my head, the 351 is at a disadvantage from the beginning. it's starting with roughly 210 rated HP. the 6.0 GM motor is starting with 300-347 HP depending what it came out of. even the 5.3, which are very common, start at 285. will it be an easy swap.....HARDLY.....but would a 351 swap be easy, doubtful. from the threads that i've read, both swaps will require very similar parts to get done (specific headers, intakes, clutches/flywheels/balancers, motor mounts, trans crossmembers, with the 351 a very real possibility of needing an aftermarket hood, etc etc).

i VERY much appreciate the input from EVERYONE that's chimed in here because for someone in my position, it's good to see both sides of the coin. it's good to have someone that doesn't agree with swap and point out the reasons NOT to do it (besides the fact of putting a chevy in a ford). as well as those that DO agree and will of course have their reasons. the only thing i ask is please stop beating up on each other's parents

thanx again for the input!!!!

90lxcoupe · Sep 5, 2010

Gearbanger 101 said:
And really...how much further ahead are you going to be, doing an engine swap with a 346ci LS1 at this point anyway? For what it would cost you to perform the swap, you could make the same, or more power with a H/C/I 302 and save yourself the swap cost.

Theres no way a HCI 302's would keep up with a stock LS1, mabye a stock LS1 in a camaro, but take a stock LS1 mustang, and put it in the same chassis as the HCI 302, and the 302 is gonna lose every time, now im talking about LQ4's which are 364ci, and personally thats what i'd buy cause its cheaper and will make plenty of power to go 9's NA

As far as transmissions go, whether your using ford stuff of chevy stuff, your gonna have to build something, whether its a t-56, turbo400, turbo350, AOD, C-4, C-6. So that cost is gonna be roughly the same for each project.

You would probably need a custom driveshaft for the LS swap, but even on my car which is still a ford based powerplant, i need to have a custom driveshaft made cause mine is too long and hitting the seal on the transmission, so when your building a car, no matter whats in it, **** comes up.

NIKwoaC · Sep 5, 2010

undercnstrction said:
in contrast to you guys, i have ABSOLUTELY ZERO experience building anything!

For this reason, I'd say stick to a H/C/I 302. There is so much documentation and help out there for that, you almost can't go wrong. An LS swap is either going to take a lot of money, a lot of skill, or a LOT of TIME figuring things out as you go along.

Gearbanger 101 · Sep 5, 2010

90lxcoupe said:
Theres no way a HCI 302's would keep up with a stock LS1, mabye a stock LS1 in a camaro, but take a stock LS1 mustang, and put it in the same chassis as the HCI 302, and the 302 is gonna lose every time, now im talking about LQ4's which are 364ci, and personally thats what i'd buy cause its cheaper and will make plenty of power to go 9's NA

Huh??? You don't think a H/C/I Mustang couldn't run with a stock LS1 swapped Mustang? I mean...what's the weight difference between your average F-Body and a Fox...250lbs...350lbs tops? The Smaller 346ci LS1's will run low-13's in the F-Body...and probably consistent high-12's in a Fox body. The larger LQ4 only made 325hp/360tq in stock trim. That can't translate to much better than mid/low-12's….maybe high-11’s at best in a 3,100-,3,300lb Fox body. There are plenty of H/C/I Mustang running those times out there.

Hell, the one my brother just picked up a '92 Coupe that has little more than bottom of the barrel Edelbrock Performers, Cobra intake and very mild CompCams grind in it and it run's high-12's on street tires all day long.

You either misread my statement, or there just aren't a lot of very quick Mustangs at your track?

fiveohwblow · Sep 6, 2010

I'd have to agree with that. I have two friends with lx's with the trick flow top end kit, each putting down 300 and some change atthw rear wheels. One has piloted hers to 12's and the other has yet to get to the track, but the have told me they run side by side.

A stock ls1 has been beaten by both MANY times.

I DESTROYED many stock ls1's with my fox before the blower.

I don't wanna hear the whole it must have been the driver either, cause I'm not a great driver

Shaolin Crane · Sep 6, 2010

fiveohwblow said:
I'd have to agree with that. I have two friends with lx's with the trick flow top end kit, each putting down 300 and some change atthw rear wheels. One has piloted hers to 12's and the other has yet to get to the track, but the have told me they run side by side.

A stock ls1 has been beaten by both MANY times.

I DESTROYED many stock ls1's with my fox before the blower.

I don't wanna hear the whole it must have been the driver either, cause I'm not a great driver

My SS was a 12 second car with just bolt ons.

engine build dilemma

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