Few ??s about Steeda Timing Adjuster vs. Predator

BlueRuckus · Aug 25, 2005

Thinking about getting the Steeda Timing Adjuster.

First question is about timing. I see that the average timing with basic bolt ons is about 14. I know I can run the car and turn it back when I get detonation.
If I run 93 Octane, can I go any higher. In other words, have you guys tried that?

Second, is it useless to have both the Timing Adjuster and a DiabloSport Predator? I also plan on getting the Predator in the near future. Will it do the exact same thing as the T/A, as fas as timing?

Thanks in advance for any advice.

jstreet0204 · Aug 25, 2005

The timing adjuster(TA) changes the base timing. Meaning it adds x degrees to all timing calulations even under idle and part throttle conditions. This can be a good thing in that it can increase your gas mileage some. A tuner can adjust timing in rpm ranges, and I believe only under WOT. So your part throttle timing is not effected. If you get a tuner later on you won't need the TA.

jjtgiants · Aug 25, 2005

In my opinion you don't need a timing adjuster if your going to get a predator. Just use the predator to adjust the timing.

If you do decide to go with a timing adjuster and then use the Predator and install the Diablo tune, which adjusts timing and A/F your engine will probably go BOOOOOM. Now if you just use the the predator to adjust your sensors for an x pipe or gear ratio while keeping the stock tune you might be ok. You should just call Diablo and ask what your options are if you really want to use the timing adjuster.

Torinalth · Aug 25, 2005

TA and diablo making the engine go boom? That is just not correct at all. Jstreet has a very good explanation however. the TA adjust timing across the entire band, at all throttle points, like he said it raises the base. similer idea is that you add exhaust to a 200 HP car and get 220, add it to a 400 hp car and get 420.... its more or less another addition to add to the BASE performance, instaed of a stacking performance like headers stack on X pipe that stack on catback...

I've been toying with this idea for a long time and still have not figured out the best way to get all the performance i want. the TA + the preditor will give you the most timing adjust ment possible (aside from the SCT pro racers package and software, and a custome tune from a shop [which is the same thing, just shop done instead of you]).

In Theory you could get the TA and Preditor, use the TA to raise the timing to the point of detonation at high rpm under WOT, then scale it back on the tuner to eliminate the WOT detonation(OH NO! you cant remove timing, heretic!), the reasoning for this would be to make sure you have the most timing possible on the low end and part throttle applications, then fine tune the WOT with the preditor to get the best possible timing for all conditions and ALL throttle points.

for most people this may be a little much, and most will suggest just going with the hand held tuner, and leave it at WOT tuning and let the stock timing remain stock. you can go either way.... no matter how you look at it, going with one, the other, or both; you will need to have road tests to make sure you are safe AND making power.

If i did not make enough sense, or you want further explanation post up and I, or someone else more qualified, can post in.

Edited to make a lil more sense, and correct a small mistake

Torinalth

BlueRuckus · Aug 25, 2005

- In Theory you could get the TA and Preditor, use the TA to raise the timing to the point of detonation at high rpm under WOT, then scale it back on the tuner to eliminate the WOT detonation(OH NO! you cant remove timing, heretic!), the reasoning for this would be to make sure you have the most timing possible on the low end and part throttle applications, then fine tune the WOT with the preditor to get the best possible timing for all conditions and ALL throttle points.

I pretty much understand that and it makes perfect sense to me.

Question is, has it been done, and how much tinkering involved? While I have no problem doing some simple detonation testing, I would hate for it to be an arduous task. If the tuner makes this easy by giving me currect timing info and variety of options at different throttle points, then it's not such a bad idea.

Thanks for the info. Something to mill over.

Torinalth · Aug 25, 2005

it would be relativly simple, once you have both you can get it near correct in about 30-40 min if you have a place you can redline second (preferably with a hill for more engine load)

I mean, set the TA at 12*, run the hill, come back down, raise it 1 more, run the hill, etc... get detonation, record the RPM, leave the TA alone, and lower the rpm timing (its in +/- values not degree values) on the preditor. run the hill again to make sure its correct... then for grins raise the TA one more and run it. (remember to do both part throttle and WOT), then make alterations to the tune... you know you need to come back on the TA once you get detonation under part throttle. then scale the TA back one, and retune so you are just uder the detonation limit. and use 93 octane.

so, like it said, maybe 30-60 min... keep any necessary tools in the car for the TA adjustment, and just adjust at the top of the hill

I think i am selling myself on going TA and tuner, and a wideband instead of going with the pro racers package from SCT....

EDIT - just noticed the value for "global spark" on the eXcal 2 from SCT... need to see if this goes into efffect only at WOT of if by global it will take the place of the TA...

Torinalth

BlueRuckus · Aug 25, 2005

Thanks for the experimental write up.
Seeing as how i have neither components right now though, I'm gonna print it out and try it if I end up getting both.

I have never put my car on a dyno, so not sure if it's possible, but would you be able to make the redline runs in second while actually on a dyno to test for detonation? If possible, it would be interesting to see results in between adjustments.

hotdog71 · Aug 25, 2005

what is the difference in net gain between the two TA and Predator?
I have the Predator and the perfomance tune feels great but what kind of gain dose this TA get you?

propellerhead · Aug 25, 2005

jstreet0204 said:
...A tuner can adjust timing in rpm ranges, and I believe only under WOT. So your part throttle timing is not effected.

Not quite, sir. The tune that comes with the Predator has the part throttle timing advanced proportionally along the RPM range, much better than a constant x degrees at all RPM points. The only one the user can adjust is the WOT timing.

csledd · Aug 25, 2005

I'd recommend skipping both and going with the SCT Xcal2! lol, but really I'd go with at least the Predator.

Torinalth · Aug 26, 2005

BlueRuckus said:
Thanks for the experimental write up.
Seeing as how i have neither components right now though, I'm gonna print it out and try it if I end up getting both.

I have never put my car on a dyno, so not sure if it's possible, but would you be able to make the redline runs in second while actually on a dyno to test for detonation? If possible, it would be interesting to see results in between adjustments.

If its a dyno jet then no... if it is a mustang dyno (also refered to as a loading dyno) then yes, as it takes the cars weight into acount and puts resistance on the rollers.

what is the difference in net gain between the two TA and Predator?
I have the Predator and the perfomance tune feels great but what kind of gain dose this TA get you?

prolly about the same give or take a bit... the tuner is more capable, thats for certain, so down the line with more mods the tuner wil outshine the TA... but then again for more then double the cost... it better do more.

Not quite, sir. The tune that comes with the Predator has the part throttle timing advanced proportionally along the RPM range, much better than a constant x degrees at all RPM points. The only one the user can adjust is the WOT timing.

you are more or less correct. when you order your preditor, Xcal2, chip, whatever... they create a tune for you based on your mods and what octane fuel you will be using. the reason for the octane determins timing.... HOWEVER they will not be able to maximize total timing potential on their tune... and the rpm range adjustments are strictly at WOT.... I have my question in to SCT to see if the "global spark" is effective at all throttle and RPM or not... i'll repost when i get a definitive.

Torinalth

Torinalth · Aug 26, 2005

ok, found the answer, the global spark effectivly does the exact same thing as the TA, adjusts the total spark from the base under ALL conditions... just like the TA would... so if you are going to get a tuner then you will have no need for the TA (this is in regards to the SCT eXcalibrator 2 tuner, i do not know for certain about the preditor)

Torinalth

BlueRuckus · Aug 26, 2005

Thanks for all the info. After reading here and other info on tuners, I think I will just get the tuner. Much better investment now, and also way down the road with other mods.

Thanks again!!

tomustang · Aug 26, 2005

Atleast get a tuner with good tech support, like SCT.

Torinalth · Aug 26, 2005

i personally will be getting the Xcal2 in 2 months and then follow with the LC1 A/F wideband and digital gague. with that i can get a full rundown when plugged into the Xcal for datalogging. no need for a dyno at that point (for tune purposes)

Torinalth

jasonh_86 · Aug 26, 2005

I've got the Steeda T/A on my car, i used to have it set at 14* but then i turned it down to 10* to use cheaper gas, but the mileage was so bad it wasnt worth it.. so when i turned it back up, i went up to 16* and i use 93 octane. It runs perfectly fine, doesnt miss, ping, detonate or anything. I've even thought of turning it to 17 possibly

BlueRuckus · Aug 26, 2005

jasonh_86 said:
I've got the Steeda T/A on my car, i used to have it set at 14* but then i turned it down to 10* to use cheaper gas, but the mileage was so bad it wasnt worth it.. so when i turned it back up, i went up to 16* and i use 93 octane. It runs perfectly fine, doesnt miss, ping, detonate or anything. I've even thought of turning it to 17 possibly

I'm sure the acceleration was pretty good when you jumped up to 16 from 10.
I use 93, so I just wanted to know how high, I might be able to go.

Thx.

jasonh_86 · Aug 27, 2005

i'm sure u could run 16* no problem with 93 octane.. i mean it wouldnt hurt to try would it?

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