Paint and Body Fox Body Painting 101
- Thread starter Davedacarpainter
- Start date
Normally, I'd address that further,...but Ive already put a penny on the tracks already....I don't wanna take a chance of a multi-car derail here.
Ok Mike, I don't have much experience with the "grocery store" beer.UhhhCouple of questions...
Will beer purchased from the grocery store suffice? The stuff at the liquor store is more expensive,...and you know how I feel about spending good money on something that will essentially render the same result for less.
Do I have to eat "chow" at 10PM, or can I eat at a time closer to the typically designated slot allotted for that purpose?
Just like the paint guns, you can get by with the cheaper stuff, but the pricier liquor store beer is worth its value.
Now let's say that you are buying the beer and will be giving me some of it for free, then I have no problem whatsoever with the cheap beer. Due to the financial arrangement stated above for purchase of said beer, I would even go so far as to say I support this action.
But, do what you want to.....
Something that would help me is a list of the required tool and a list of tools that are not required but help.
I know I'm looking at getting a blocking set, a high speed buffer, I've wondered about powered block sanders.
I know I'm looking at getting a blocking set, a high speed buffer, I've wondered about powered block sanders.
Yeah, I as going to be covering that probably next.
For me, the powered block sanders like a jitterbug are a waste of money.
For bodywork, an airfile is nice, but not really needed.
A good set of blocks is important. They don't even have to be expensive @madmike1157 ! Save your money for the beer.
You will want a good variety of blocks, several flat blocks in varying sizes from 4" to at least a 12" block. Longer than that is ok to use, but they become a little difficult to hold properly for blocking. Blocking bondo and the subsequent primer coat is all about finesse. I'll want to cover that with pictures soon. You will also want a semi-flexible block for going over curved surface. Round blocks even come in handy, but not real often.
Dual action (DA) orbiting sanders really are a need. They will come in different styles that are based upon the size of the little circles the pad will make in use. Two DA's are very helpful. A coarser sanding DA is good for Initial sanding and feathering out chips and the sort. A finishing sander is good for final prep before paint. It can be used for feathering chips like the coarse model, but it takes a lot longer. Plus it will keep the heavier grit sandpaper from really digging in like you want before slinging mud. With its tighter circles it doesn't allow for the heavier grit enough distance in it's little circles to completely score the panel, it kind of makes the sandpaper ride on top of the surface. So, two DA's.
A da was the first thing I got. It's a cheapie so I'm not sure if it's larger or smaller. I know it's a 6" . The air file is what I was looking at. But I'm
Mainly worried about blocking primer and that's overkill right?
Mainly worried about blocking primer and that's overkill right?
They still sell the different types of DA's cheap. The sales help may be a little clueless, just read the boxes.
Don't use an airfile for primer, WAYYYYYY too aggressive. It's best to do it by hand with a block.
If I can interject, I'll add the " hobbiest" perspective to the required tools question:
#1. Adequate compressor
An adequate compressor is the only item in the required tools list that will get used outside of this "once in ten years" adventure that Dave is taking us on. Consequently, it is also the only tool that I'll break my " good enough" quality standard when it comes to buying one. Put the biggest capacity 2stage compressor that you can financially justify in your garage, and it'll be there for life. And,.... Your wife won't btch you out too bad when you forget to turn it off, and it turns on at 3AM because of the slow leak in your cheap assed HF regulator. Try to buy a unit rated at 5hp, w/ a 60-80 gal upright tank like the type sold at HD for about 500.00
2. A good DA sander. Again, you'll use the hell out of one of these, and I find uses for it everywhere on the monster. Since by the very nature of the beast these things move every time you pull the trigger, a better unit will have better internals/bearings and will last longer. Additionally, a better unit will do all of that and consume less air pressure, so your compressor will be less likely to run all the damn time. Price? I got no clue, I've had mine for 20 years, I can't comment on current pricing.
As stated by the increasingly popular painter in chief Dave, Sureform and Durablock make kits that you can buy all of your soft sanders and blocks. I buy these things ala-carte at my body shop supplier. Usually between 15-25.00 each.
As for the required airlines, and regulator/filter/driers... All of that junk can be bought at HF. They do sell a better grade butyl rubber hose similar to shop hoses, and you'll want that. In the pictures I take, you'll see that I can say that from example, as the hose on my reel is not the " good stuff" and you end up with a rigid hose that will not lay out nicely, especially when cold. Again, better quality is usually defined by price here, and HF has both. Spend the extra, and get the good junk as opposed to the bad junk.
Paint guns? I'll not profess to offer an opinion in an experts thread. All I'll say is that there is a plethora of choices out there that dont say devilbiss or sata, or binks on them that will work . How well they work, or for how long,.......you'll have to ask the man.
#1. Adequate compressor
An adequate compressor is the only item in the required tools list that will get used outside of this "once in ten years" adventure that Dave is taking us on. Consequently, it is also the only tool that I'll break my " good enough" quality standard when it comes to buying one. Put the biggest capacity 2stage compressor that you can financially justify in your garage, and it'll be there for life. And,.... Your wife won't btch you out too bad when you forget to turn it off, and it turns on at 3AM because of the slow leak in your cheap assed HF regulator. Try to buy a unit rated at 5hp, w/ a 60-80 gal upright tank like the type sold at HD for about 500.00
2. A good DA sander. Again, you'll use the hell out of one of these, and I find uses for it everywhere on the monster. Since by the very nature of the beast these things move every time you pull the trigger, a better unit will have better internals/bearings and will last longer. Additionally, a better unit will do all of that and consume less air pressure, so your compressor will be less likely to run all the damn time. Price? I got no clue, I've had mine for 20 years, I can't comment on current pricing.
As stated by the increasingly popular painter in chief Dave, Sureform and Durablock make kits that you can buy all of your soft sanders and blocks. I buy these things ala-carte at my body shop supplier. Usually between 15-25.00 each.
As for the required airlines, and regulator/filter/driers... All of that junk can be bought at HF. They do sell a better grade butyl rubber hose similar to shop hoses, and you'll want that. In the pictures I take, you'll see that I can say that from example, as the hose on my reel is not the " good stuff" and you end up with a rigid hose that will not lay out nicely, especially when cold. Again, better quality is usually defined by price here, and HF has both. Spend the extra, and get the good junk as opposed to the bad junk.
Paint guns? I'll not profess to offer an opinion in an experts thread. All I'll say is that there is a plethora of choices out there that dont say devilbiss or sata, or binks on them that will work . How well they work, or for how long,.......you'll have to ask the man.
Craft beer is so worth the extra 2-3 dollars.
Dave I have a rust question-
The entire roof on my father in laws 86 ford truck is covered in surface rust. It's not pitted or rusted through,will It need to sanded to bare metal?
I can take a pic tomorrow if needed
Lots of good info in here-thanks again
The entire roof on my father in laws 86 ford truck is covered in surface rust. It's not pitted or rusted through,will It need to sanded to bare metal?
I can take a pic tomorrow if needed
Lots of good info in here-thanks again
Yep, strip it completely.
If it's just surface rust, it should all sand off.
If it's pitted, it wouldn't hurt to get phosphoric acid and treat it.
Some might suggest muriatic acid for this, don't do that. It will remove the by products of rust (the orange brown stuff, or rust poop), but it starts a chemical reaction that is difficult to stop.
Anywho, yep, strip it, treat it. Primer with an acid etch primer and then follow through with the priming/refinishing process.
@Boosted92LX and I know a guy who SWEARS by that muriatic acid stuff. I think he even sprinkles some in his coffee in the mornings for that extra kick.
*waits under table for verbal lashing*
I know Mike loves it.
While it seems to do the trick, it can have lingering issues. Phosphoric acid does the job as well, albeit it takes a little longer.
Muriatic acid does have a lot of uses though.
In effort to delay or stop a rant by *someone*, Muriatic acid will remove this surface rust, but it has three main problems:
1. It is a diluted hydrochloric acid, diluted doesn't mean it won't eat through your skin. Use thick gloves. Btw, it should be diluted before using it for this purpose, though some thrill seekers might use it full strength. Use where you have ventilation.
2. It will leave behind a chloride residue that you will need to neutralize with a baking soda/water mix. This is about my biggest problem with it's use. Trying to make sure it is neutralized. You will want to make sure it is completely cleaned off. Any left over chlorides left on the bare metal surface will cause a negative chemical reaction with the topcoats of paint. If you get it all off and neutralized, it works fine.
3. You wil need to coat the area as soon as you have the area neutralized and cleaned. Do not leave this bare metal even for a couple days. The chemical reaction from the acid and any left behind chlorides will speed oxidation. Seriously, get it cleaned, dried and at least get an acid etch primer on top. Then you can slow back down and finish preparing the surface for refinishing.
I suggest a phosphate coating for the rust (iron phosphate being the most common and easy to use). This chemical is the main adhesion component in most acid etch based pre coats. You can even use it as a bare metal etch prior to resurfacing. It will also degrease and clean the surface if wiped on and off. It provides the adhesion to the bare metal that etch coatings are used for.
Sand the rusted area as smooth as you can first, then apply this stuff.
It is a coating, let it dry on the metal. Once dry, sand it down and treat it like a bare metal surface again using an acid etch primer, unless the surface is smooth, then this phosphate coating will be the only etch it needs prior to top coating. Just lightly scuff that treated area first to provide the mechanical adhesion the top surface will need for initial bonding to the panel.
1. It is a diluted hydrochloric acid, diluted doesn't mean it won't eat through your skin. Use thick gloves. Btw, it should be diluted before using it for this purpose, though some thrill seekers might use it full strength. Use where you have ventilation.
2. It will leave behind a chloride residue that you will need to neutralize with a baking soda/water mix. This is about my biggest problem with it's use. Trying to make sure it is neutralized. You will want to make sure it is completely cleaned off. Any left over chlorides left on the bare metal surface will cause a negative chemical reaction with the topcoats of paint. If you get it all off and neutralized, it works fine.
3. You wil need to coat the area as soon as you have the area neutralized and cleaned. Do not leave this bare metal even for a couple days. The chemical reaction from the acid and any left behind chlorides will speed oxidation. Seriously, get it cleaned, dried and at least get an acid etch primer on top. Then you can slow back down and finish preparing the surface for refinishing.
I suggest a phosphate coating for the rust (iron phosphate being the most common and easy to use). This chemical is the main adhesion component in most acid etch based pre coats. You can even use it as a bare metal etch prior to resurfacing. It will also degrease and clean the surface if wiped on and off. It provides the adhesion to the bare metal that etch coatings are used for.
Sand the rusted area as smooth as you can first, then apply this stuff.
It is a coating, let it dry on the metal. Once dry, sand it down and treat it like a bare metal surface again using an acid etch primer, unless the surface is smooth, then this phosphate coating will be the only etch it needs prior to top coating. Just lightly scuff that treated area first to provide the mechanical adhesion the top surface will need for initial bonding to the panel.
Look,....you guys use what you use, and I'll use what I use.
To put that in another context,...You guys walk to China, and I'll take the plane.
I've always said that Muriatic Acid has a few "issues" with regard to it's usage, most notably the likelihood that you'll end up mustard gassing yourself while using it. (clearly, it's not for the down-windwardly challenged).
Since we are dogging my caustic chemical of choice, It'll also completely eliminate the factory galvanizing used full strength. So in instances of it's use on a piece of sheet metal that used to be a fender/door/hood/roof,.......I might think twice. Like my new cyber drinkin buddy Dave has already pointed out,...muriatic acid will need to be neutralized, and the part immediately primed in etching primer as it seems to rust with a vengeance after getting its bath in fresh water.
But,....
For the guy that has some rusted assed bumper brackets, snag-u-lated looking door hinges, hood latches, blah, blah, blah,....there isn't a better gallon of stuff anywhere to render those problems solved in 5 minutes or less.
Or conversely, you can buy that evap-o-rust junk, and wait.
and wait,
and wait.
(I can keep doing this for the next 24 hours to drive home my point, which coincidentally is how long it takes that crap to render the same result,...but...........I think you get the idea.)
Tomorrow is Mikes day off. Mike has a pair of rusted assed bumper brackets. Mike has a gallon of heavily used M/A. Tommorrow, we'll have a demonstration of just how long it takes, using Mikes Iphone in timer mode to render a completely raw metal finish that for all practical purposes can only be compared to having it sand blasted.
So,.....
I prefer this one....
To put that in another context,...You guys walk to China, and I'll take the plane.
I've always said that Muriatic Acid has a few "issues" with regard to it's usage, most notably the likelihood that you'll end up mustard gassing yourself while using it. (clearly, it's not for the down-windwardly challenged).
Since we are dogging my caustic chemical of choice, It'll also completely eliminate the factory galvanizing used full strength. So in instances of it's use on a piece of sheet metal that used to be a fender/door/hood/roof,.......I might think twice. Like my new cyber drinkin buddy Dave has already pointed out,...muriatic acid will need to be neutralized, and the part immediately primed in etching primer as it seems to rust with a vengeance after getting its bath in fresh water.
But,....
For the guy that has some rusted assed bumper brackets, snag-u-lated looking door hinges, hood latches, blah, blah, blah,....there isn't a better gallon of stuff anywhere to render those problems solved in 5 minutes or less.
Or conversely, you can buy that evap-o-rust junk, and wait.
and wait,
and wait.
(I can keep doing this for the next 24 hours to drive home my point, which coincidentally is how long it takes that crap to render the same result,...but...........I think you get the idea.)
Tomorrow is Mikes day off. Mike has a pair of rusted assed bumper brackets. Mike has a gallon of heavily used M/A. Tommorrow, we'll have a demonstration of just how long it takes, using Mikes Iphone in timer mode to render a completely raw metal finish that for all practical purposes can only be compared to having it sand blasted.
So,.....
I prefer this one....
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I'm not knocking muriatic acid Mike.
You know what you are doing with it and have experience using it. It does work well, but with some conditions.
I got to go searching for some new emojis......
You know what you are doing with it and have experience using it. It does work well, but with some conditions.
I got to go searching for some new emojis......
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