Frankenstang- The Tuning [M112 Eaton custom blower build]

5.0Thunder

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#21
closer to 15% for me in those higher temp areas. seems like a lot but it works well for me.
 
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Blown88GT

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#22
Comparing your tune with mine:
AFR Table Load - mine is MAP, yours is MAF
EAE Curve Load - mine is MAF, yours is MAP

At 5.0V, your MAF curve ends at 455 g/sec, mine gets almost to 600.
Where did you get the curve data from?

Looks like you're still using the default injector DT & BCV.
Input real data for your injectors.
I have calculated the data for the FRP 47's; haven't installed them yet.
DT = 0.901
BCV = 0.129

Idle Advance Settings
Idle Advance On - mine is RPM, yours is adaptive
Apply As - mine is set value, yours is adder.

Your 3 tables have difference max kPa, should be the same for all.
I let VEAL trim the VE table, did you?

Questions:
MAF draw through or blow through?
IC or no IC? Air-to-air Intercooler keeps IAT very constant.
You sig says you are using a Mini Cooper Bypass; bypass or blow-off?
Is it capable of bypassing or blowing off 100% or something less. Mine is only about half which makes some of the VE cells higher than expected (150). Since supercharger decreases pumping losses, volumetric efficiency increases. Mine is a mechanical vacuum operated BOV, about 1 inch diameter on a 2.5 in pipe between the SC outlet & the IC inlet. MAF is at the IC outlet, inside the fender.
 
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a91what

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#23
Comparing your tune with mine:
AFR Table Load - mine is MAP, yours is MAF
EAE Curve Load - mine is MAF, yours is MAP
AFR Table Load - I originally had the car running with this set to MAP i used the histogram to generate a load table for this based on MAF rather than MAP. The same way i create load tables to alter ITB tunes when someone decides to add a turbo to the mix. To do this i loaded 10 datalogs at the same time by holding the ctrl key and used 3 hrs of driving data to do so.

At 5.0V, your MAF curve ends at 455 g/sec, mine gets almost to 600.
Where did you get the curve data from?
Another member @stanglx2002 was kind enough to give me the data for the 90mm lightning maf. You will find the file below.

Looks like you're still using the default injector DT & BCV.
Input real data for your injectors.
I have calculated the data for the FRP 47's; haven't installed them yet.
DT = 0.901
BCV = 0.129
I did use real data for the injectors, i am not using the default DT = 1 and BCV = .1
My calculated DT= .896 BCV= .128 using the excel spreadsheet you generously posted in the tuner-studio tech thread. my adjusted spreadsheet i have been using for more than a year below. *NOTE i have used 39PSI rather than 40 as a base setting measured at the rail vacuum removed stock FPR.

Idle Advance Settings
Idle Advance On - mine is RPM, yours is adaptive
Apply As - mine is set value, yours is adder.
I run full closed loop idle, AC electric fans ect. My idle advance is set to target the CL idle RPM = Adaptive; it works in conjunction with the CL idle rather than fighting it.
Adder= add this delta value to the spark table during CL idle; once the car is in CL idle and the adaptive idle is within setpoint the timing is adder=0 if it wanders above 50rpm over setpoint the adder linearly increases from 0 to -5* at 200rpm delta above setpoint. It works conversly in the opposite direction, as the rpm wanders below the CL idle target setpoint by -50rpm the adder = 2*-5* by -200rpm delta.
This way the CL idle and the idle advance are both working to target the same rpm. It works very well i will post a datalog of todays drive for review. Keeping in mind i have 2 ECU inside one case so some of the parameters can be found under tiny. location in the datalog.


Your 3 tables have difference max kPa, should be the same for all.
I let VEAL trim the VE table, did you?
AFR and VE are in MAFload and do not directly correlate to KPA values, at a MAFload of 90 I am seeing 1-2 psi and at MAFload of 150 i am at 10 psi. These tables do not need to directly correlate as anything above 150 MAFload will target the AFR value in the highest row
The IGN table is still referencing MAP so i have to use a number at least to 180 KPA for the 11+ psi i see with no belt slip.
I to used to think they all HAD to match but after tuning 30+ MS cars now some with very wild combinations [ like mikes ITB inline 6 with turbo ] this is moot as long as the table has the resolution needed.


Questions:
MAF draw through or blow through?
Draw through
IC or no IC? Air-to-air Intercooler keeps IAT very constant.
No room for one I spray W/Meth under the blower to control temps under boost
You sig says you are using a Mini Cooper Bypass; bypass or blow-off?
Is it capable of bypassing or blowing off 100% or something less. Mine is only about half which makes some of the VE cells higher than expected (150). Since supercharger decreases pumping losses, volumetric efficiency increases. Mine is a mechanical vacuum operated BOV, about 1 inch diameter on a 2.5 in pipe between the SC outlet & the IC inlet. MAF is at the IC outlet, inside the fender.
Bypass from the inlet to the plenum under the blower. vacuum actuated maybe 1.25 inch diameter.
 

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Blown88GT

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Nov 13, 1999
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#25
My old Excel program says 90mm Lightening MAF Transfer Curve.xls is unrecognized format.
I read somewhere about the 90mm Lightning MAF, different versions & different flow curves.

Looks like this is where @stanglx2002 got your data from.
https://www.efidynotuning.com/maf.htm

I do know that my flow curve has a higher upper end because C&L had the flow bench to test more than MAF's. He also tested rocket engine nozzles for NASA. I spoke to "L" several times, since we were both "rocket scientists".
I acquired all his original flow curves & some how he was able to take flow measurements above what the sensor could output (4.3v out of 5.0v). The old sensors did have a voltage limit.

Thanks for all the good info. You clearly have more experience with more vehicles. I only have one, mine. Finally got cold idle & warm idle to stabilize with one setting, which you also have set like mine. Closed loop idle settings-->Use last value or table-->Use Initial Value table.

It's running so well, am reluctant to even install the 47's in place of the 30's. I only bought the 47's because they came with the adapters (which are no longer available) & the 30's would be at 100% duty cycle at full boost (13 lbs), which I never do. I can get 2 lbs boost in 5th gear at 2k rpm at WOT. Probably need a better sensor than the old Ford one. It would have to have the same end dimensions to retain the existing hose adapters.

Drive train & me are too old to do any heavy mechanical work. The car is now just an antique cruiser.
 

a91what

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#26
My old Excel program says 90mm Lightening MAF Transfer Curve.xls is unrecognized format.
I read somewhere about the 90mm Lightning MAF, different versions & different flow curves.

Looks like this is where @stanglx2002 got your data from.
https://www.efidynotuning.com/maf.htm

I do know that my flow curve has a higher upper end because C&L had the flow bench to test more than MAF's. He also tested rocket engine nozzles for NASA. I spoke to "L" several times, since we were both "rocket scientists".
I acquired all his original flow curves & some how he was able to take flow measurements above what the sensor could output (4.3v out of 5.0v). The old sensors did have a voltage limit.

Thanks for all the good info. You clearly have more experience with more vehicles. I only have one, mine. Finally got cold idle & warm idle to stabilize with one setting, which you also have set like mine. Closed loop idle settings-->Use last value or table-->Use Initial Value table.

It's running so well, am reluctant to even install the 47's in place of the 30's. I only bought the 47's because they came with the adapters (which are no longer available) & the 30's would be at 100% duty cycle at full boost (13 lbs), which I never do. I can get 2 lbs boost in 5th gear at 2k rpm at WOT. Probably need a better sensor than the old Ford one. It would have to have the same end dimensions to retain the existing hose adapters.

Drive train & me are too old to do any heavy mechanical work. The car is now just an antique cruiser.
Thats cool I am talking to a rocket scientist! what a field of work that must be... I just train people on the basics of electrical theory and how to become a decent inside wireman [electrician].. such is life.
The idle settings took alot of playing with before i found the settings that worked best for this combo, when i do remote tunes i usually get the car to idle well the 'easy' way and then attempt to emulate these settings, sometimes it is a flop.
I am limited at around 11PSI on this build do to pulley combinations but it will make boost right off idle, the bypass valve was necessary to mitigate compressor surge and lower intake temps.
 

Blown88GT

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#27
Thats cool I am talking to a rocket scientist! what a field of work that must be... I just train people on the basics of electrical theory and how to become a decent inside wireman [electrician].. such is life.
The idle settings took alot of playing with before i found the settings that worked best for this combo, when i do remote tunes i usually get the car to idle well the 'easy' way and then attempt to emulate these settings, sometimes it is a flop.
I am limited at around 11PSI on this build do to pulley combinations but it will make boost right off idle, the bypass valve was necessary to mitigate compressor surge and lower intake temps.
Actually, I was an electrical controls engineer, but worked for a while in a building called Rocket Support. Tested all our equipment on unused rocket engine test stands. I figure that makes me a rocket scientist.
All your issues mostly the same for me.
1. idle settings took a lot of playing with. Took me longer than you, but I only have a 6 month window, too hot in summer.
2. I am limited at around 11PSI on this build do to pulley combinations. Same for me but maybe an additional 2 psi.
3. it will make boost right off idle. Ditto.
4. the bypass valve was necessary to mitigate compressor surge. Ditto. I re-engineered all the plumbing since ATI didn't know what they were doing back then. What sold me on the Procharger was the intercooler, when Vortech & all the others had none. The straight cut gears are noisy but strong. So used to the noise, it would sound strange without it.
 

a91what

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#28
So today i drove the car to work datalogging with ego correction disabled, the idea was to get a clean datalog to build a histogram with. This will be to tackle the MAT correction issues i have been facing, If you are wondering what i am talking about the idea is to build a table to reference load vs mat vs AFR error%.

AFR error% is not a standard MLV parameter so we have to build a custom channel for it, AFR Error% = [field. AFR]/[AFR target 1] * 100

now that we have that built we need to build the histogram.
NOTE: i altered the cold filter temperature to cut out anything below 192*= my thermostat temp
NOTE: i altered the table to only show MAF load in the idle range of the tune file, not sure how this will affect the cruising conditions in the tune. I also considered fuel standoff in the runners at idle, this can cause a swing in idle AFR with an open plenum short runner design with port injection.
MAF MAT correction.PNG


This gives me a basic idea but i dont think i have quite enough data yet to correctly plot this trim table, I will need to get around an hour of drive data with varying conditions and ambient temperatures to properly plot the curve in.

A step in the right direction i think.
 
Jan 31, 2018
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#29
This is a much more extensive approach than I used, and in the end, it's only going to give you a "good guess" of how to plot the one correction curve, right?

Why not just let the engine get hot at idle and drag the datapoints in the curve to whatever values give you the best AFR? I mentioned this above and it took like 5mins to get it done. Maybe I'm missing some of what you're gaining with this approach but from my perspective it looks like a lot of overthinking. :oops:
 

a91what

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#30
This is a much more extensive approach than I used, and in the end, it's only going to give you a "good guess" of how to plot the one correction curve, right?

Why not just let the engine get hot at idle and drag the datapoints in the curve to whatever values give you the best AFR? I mentioned this above and it took like 5mins to get it done. Maybe I'm missing some of what you're gaining with this approach but from my perspective it looks like a lot of overthinking. :oops:
Well I like to take a scientific approach to my tuning methods, it is also an excersice in learning. I use tables like these to troubleshoot tune anomalies all the time, I figured I would just share a use for them with an example.
And when I have this table built with enough data points it wont be a 'best guess' it will be THE curve needed. Cant argue with plotted data my friend.
 

a91what

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#31
UPDATE: after I compiled the drive data from yesterday and this morning i have come to the conclusion that MAT temperatures in my particular build have no direct correlation to the AFR swing I am experiencing. One would expect a linear [or somewhat linear] curve to show itself in the data. This has not happened, I also dont believe that the curve can go rich and then lean within a 5* MAT difference. I will chalk this one up to lambda delay and runner fuel propagation/standoff. I can provide the datalogs from the drives for review if someone wants to see them.
 
Jan 31, 2018
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#32
I appreciate the scientific approach as an Engineer myself but that darned "diminishing returns" thing also tends to affect my decision making. :p It would be neat to see if you can generate the table, plot your curve, and it be dead nuts correct.
 
Jan 31, 2018
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#33
UPDATE: after I compiled the drive data from yesterday and this morning i have come to the conclusion that MAT temperatures in my particular build have no direct correlation to the AFR swing I am experiencing. One would expect a linear [or somewhat linear] curve to show itself in the data. This has not happened, I also dont believe that the curve can go rich and then lean within a 5* MAT difference. I will chalk this one up to lambda delay and runner fuel propagation/standoff. I can provide the datalogs from the drives for review if someone wants to see them.
Ahh, this makes things interesting. So say you're driving stop light to stop light. It might be rich at idle for a couple stop lights then it'll be lean for a few, then rich again? All the while MAT is somewhat steady?
 

a91what

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#34
Ahh, this makes things interesting. So say you're driving stop light to stop light. It might be rich at idle for a couple stop lights then it'll be lean for a few, then rich again? All the while MAT is somewhat steady?
that is correct. ; I also disabled all ego feedback to run only on the VE table
 

Blown88GT

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#35
1. ...i have come to the conclusion that MAT temperatures in my particular build have no direct correlation to the AFR swing I am experiencing.
One would expect a linear [or somewhat linear] curve to show itself in the data. This has not happened, I also dont believe that the curve can go rich and then lean within a 5* MAT difference. I will chalk this one up to lambda delay and runner fuel propagation/standoff. I can provide the datalogs from the drives for review if someone wants to see them.
2. Ahh, this makes things interesting. So say you're driving stop light to stop light. It might be rich at idle for a couple stop lights then it'll be lean for a few, then rich again? All the while MAT is somewhat steady?
3. that is correct. ; I also disabled all ego feedback to run only on the VE table
1. I would have guessed that.
2. I have seen this, too. I don't worry about AFR at idle.
3. Looking at your trim table, it seems very low in the low load cells. Supercharger should increase VE significantly. Is your BOV close point set too high? Completely closed at 0-10in-Hg is about right. You want it to be fully open at high vacuum & fully closed at no vacuum.

BTW, just because you take a scientific approach to this doesn't mean that you're analyzing facts; you could be analyzing fiction, which is, what I think, you have found out.

Relatively speaking, the MS2 cpu isn't all that fast, but the larger issue is, what is the value in seconds of the real-time control loop? I'm not sure, but I suspect he has to continuously loop through the firmware for data acquisition & control. The cpu is a 16-bit micro controller, Motorola (now Freescale) MC9S12C, with 128kB of flash memory. The firmware is a simple ASCII file, not compiled or machine language, so there must be a lot of overhead in interpreting it in something close to real-time. It's also very possible that the firmware doesn't take advantage of all the features that the micro controller has available.
 

a91what

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#36
Responding to point 3, The supercharger is after the throttle body so it will still see a restricted flow just like an NA engine. The bypass valve is set to close at 5"hg until this point the air bypasses the supercharger and it is essentially free wheeling.
VE vs inHG.PNG

Here is a histogram showing VE based on engine inHG vs RPM you can see the VE increases right where the bypass valve begins to close. now up at the top above 5psi you will see the VE around 100 or lower, this is because I am pulling fuel to compensate for the watermethonal spraying. I am spraying quite a bit to mitigate intake temperatures almost 10gph at 10psi/5000 rpm.

This histogram is why i came to the conclusion i did it is the culmination of 3 commutes worth of data.
MAF MAT correction2.PNG

notice the AFR error % is within a reasonable margin of error across the entire temp range. This was the evidence i was looking for.


As far as the firmware is concerned i am no computer language expert so i cannot put my opinion in. It does what it can well and thats all i can ask, I do want to upgrade to the MS3 at some future time.
 
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Blown88GT

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#37
How can 1.25" BOV, bypass or vent 100%, even at idle?

I haven't hit all the cells I would like, too much traffic & road construction all the time.
Fuel VE Table.jpg
 
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a91what

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#38
Very simple, it's the same size that ford has built in to the m112 on all cobra/lightning engines with the "same" blower configuration. Jaguar as well along with mini cooper. Oh and on the SuperCoupes.