Fuel, Spark,and No START!!

Drews93fox · Jun 30, 2010

So i'm having a prob;em when my car is warm after driving, It will not start. I pulled a plug and have very good spark. I took off the hose that runs to the front of the car from the tank, lots of fuel. The motor turns over like a champ so im thinking that it is some sensor. The car has a twin turbo set up on it and it has alot of heat on top, I ordered some turbo covers for them so i also think that it could be vapor lock? Its a 93' LX with 30lb injectors, 255lph fuel pump, 75mm throttle body and mass air meter, and msd ignition 6al box and coil. Please help it really sucks when i can only drive it once in a night.

Also when it is completely cold it starts right up not a problem at all, so im really sure that it has something to do with the heat. Thanks everyone

Strype · Jun 30, 2010

Drews93fox said:
So i'm having a prob;em when my car is warm after driving, It will not start. I pulled a plug and have very good spark. I took off the hose that runs to the front of the car from the tank, lots of fuel. The motor turns over like a champ so im thinking that it is some sensor. The car has a twin turbo set up on it and it has alot of heat on top, I ordered some turbo covers for them so i also think that it could be vapor lock? Its a 93' LX with 30lb injectors, 255lph fuel pump, 75mm throttle body and mass air meter, and msd ignition 6al box and coil. Please help it really sucks when i can only drive it once in a night.

Also when it is completely cold it starts right up not a problem at all, so im really sure that it has something to do with the heat. Thanks everyone

Vapor lock could happen with all of that turbo heat, but from what I understand about vapor lock, the car would start to run badly when it heated up.

However, in my humble opinion, I could see that happening with your mustang. Speculating, but after you kill the car the fuel starts to flow back slowly and pressure decreases at the motor. As pressure decreases the likelyhood of that gas turning to vapor in the rails would increase. So if you have hot rails with vapor in them, it would take time for the turbos and rails to cool down.

Just my 2 cents, but if you have fuel, air and spark... And twin turbos create an enormous amount of heat.

Drews93fox · Jun 30, 2010

Strype said:
Vapor lock could happen with all of that turbo heat, but from what I understand about vapor lock, the car would start to run badly when it heated up.

However, in my humble opinion, I could see that happening with your mustang. Speculating, but after you kill the car the fuel starts to flow back slowly and pressure decreases at the motor. As pressure decreases the likelyhood of that gas turning to vapor in the rails would increase. So if you have hot rails with vapor in them, it would take time for the turbos and rails to cool down.

Just my 2 cents, but if you have fuel, air and spark... And twin turbos create an enormous amount of heat.

I agree with that completely thats the only thing that i can thing of. Is there any way to take apart the stock rails to see if i have fuel in them. Ok what else can i do to test the rails? Thanks

HISSIN50 · Jun 30, 2010

If you floor the gas pedal while and only while cranking, does it start when hot? You might have too much cranking fuel for a hot motor.

Drews93fox · Jun 30, 2010

Ok i will give this a try when I get off work tonight and hopefully respond how it goes tonight or tomorrow. Thanks for the suggestion

Haus · Jun 30, 2010

If it does start when you floor it while cranking, look into the ECT. When you floor the pedal it shuts off the injectors. You may also notice a big bunch of black smoke too.

Good Luck

Drews93fox · Jun 30, 2010

Can you please define what you mean by "looking into the ECT". I assume ur talking about the engine coolant temp sensor right? Thanks

Haus · Jun 30, 2010

Yes!! Possibally a faulty Engine Coolant Temp Sensor IF your car starts by pressing the pedal to the floor while cranking when your car is warm/hot

The ECT is along the black coolant tube between the passenger side valve cover and the upper intake towards the front

Have you checked for codes?

Drews93fox · Jun 30, 2010

Ok i will look for it but im kinda confused because I have a mechanical gauge? And no im still trying to find the right connector to wire in to get codes the previous owner is a jack*** and tried to clean up the wiring and cut that port off and then gave me a box with all the stuff he cut off lol As soon as i get the conn back on i will pull codes

Thanks for the help

Kdubslugga · Jun 30, 2010

I had this same exact problem. What fixed mine was an extra ground wire from the starter to the body. Of course its worth nothing this happened soon after i did a battery relocation to the trunk.

Drews93fox · Jun 30, 2010

I did a battery relocate too and this has happened since. I didnt think anything of it because I figured it had something to do with the turbos. I will also look into this. I think that i do have some battery cable lieing around. Thanks

HISSIN50 · Jun 30, 2010

If the engine cranks strong, the starter should be sufficiently grounded already.

Drews93fox · Jun 30, 2010

ok so I warmed up my car and shut it off At 160* and 190* and it started back up so then i let it run for awhile and it would not start again. It coughed for a second then nothing. I also floored the petal and nothing, it turned over great but nothing.

I let it cool down to 165* and it started, i let it go to 190* and shut it off and tried to start again and it would not start

I know that this is confusing but i tried to explain everything

And i looked for the wires to pull codes and couldnt find anything. It is on the drivers side by the firewall right?

Thanks for staying with me guys

HISSIN50 · Jun 30, 2010

To confirm, you tested for spark when it would not actually catch, correct?

jrichker · Jul 1, 2010

Possible PIP sensor or TFI that quits when it gets hot. Did you check for spark when it get hot?

Drews93fox · Jul 1, 2010

Yes i did check spark when it would not start.I did get a heat sink for my TFI and moved it to the drivers side firewall out of the heat and still nothing.

I have not done anything with the pip or stator, I figured that i still have spark when it will not start those parts are working correctly. Thanks for the help

Is it possible that my timing is off for some reason when i gets warmed up? Just trying to think of different things Thanks

jrichker · Jul 1, 2010

I recommend that you follow the links to the Wells site and read the tech notes there...

PIP problems & diagnostic info
Spark with the SPOUT out, but not with the SPOUT in suggests a PIP problem. The PIP signal level needs to be above 6.5 volts to trigger the computer, but only needs to be 5.75 volts to trigger the TFI module. Hence with a weak PIP signal, you could get spark but no injector pulse. You will need an oscilloscope or graphing DVM to measure the output voltage since it is not a straight DC voltage.

See http://www.wellsmfgcorp.com/pdf/counterp_v8_i2_2004.pdf and http://www.wellsmfgcorp.com/pdf/counterp_v8_i3_2004.pdf for verification of this little detail from Wells, a manufacturer of TFI modules and ignition system products.

Drews93fox · Jul 2, 2010

Thanks for the links I just printed them off and going to read and see what happens.

As soon as I find something out I will post back up on here thanks for all the help.

Drews93fox · Jul 2, 2010

wow good article!! Well i wont be able to check voltage until i get off work but i did buy a new pip/ hall affect switch. I work for advance auto parts so i got a good one for just over $20. I will put it in and see if it changes anything. I will keep posting my progress

Thanks for the help

jrichker · Jul 2, 2010

Guess I should have posted the other part of the tech note... Sorry, but better late than never...

The PIP is a Hall Effect magnetic sensor that triggers the TFI and injectors. There is a shutter wheel alternately covers and uncovers a fixed magnet as it rotates. The change in the magnetic field triggers the sensor. A failing PIP sensor will often set code 14 in the computer. They are often heat sensitive, increasing the failure rate as the temperature increases.

The PIP sensor is mounted in the bottom of the distributor under the shutter wheel. In stock Ford distributors, you have to press the gear off the distributor shaft to get access to it to replace it.

To remove the gear, first you drive out the roll pin that secures the gear to the shaft. Then you get to press the gear off with a hydraulic press or puller. When you go to press the gear back on, it has to be perfectly lined up with the hole in the gear and shaft. I have been told that the hole for the pin is offset slightly from center and may require some extra examination to get it lined up correctly.

Most guys just end up replacing the distributor with a remanufactured unit for about $75 exchange

Fuel, Spark,and No START!!

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