Progress Thread Grover: Window motor replacement & OEM rebuild
- Thread starter FastDriver
- Start date
It was pretty nasty out when he drove from Pasco, where he lives, to Joe's place out in Idaho.
Ford, who is essentially my brother, rented an open trailer, because that's what made the most sense in this situation, and went to pick up the car to save me about 5 hours driving time. Then, before I got there with my own enclosed trailer, which is pictured earlier in this thread, he washed it up for me. You know, that first impression of the car is important. There is no perfect foxbody, aside from maybe a few that have been vacuum sealed in a warehouse with less than 500 miles on them, or something. But, I was awestruck with the condition of this car when I picked it up. No, it isn't absolutely perfect, but it's even better than I expected and I expected a lot. This is the first time I ever bought a car sight unseen, which speaks to my confidence in Joe and in the car, and yet it exceeded those expectations.
Ford, who is essentially my brother, rented an open trailer, because that's what made the most sense in this situation, and went to pick up the car to save me about 5 hours driving time. Then, before I got there with my own enclosed trailer, which is pictured earlier in this thread, he washed it up for me. You know, that first impression of the car is important. There is no perfect foxbody, aside from maybe a few that have been vacuum sealed in a warehouse with less than 500 miles on them, or something. But, I was awestruck with the condition of this car when I picked it up. No, it isn't absolutely perfect, but it's even better than I expected and I expected a lot. This is the first time I ever bought a car sight unseen, which speaks to my confidence in Joe and in the car, and yet it exceeded those expectations.
We get real winter up here in North Idaho.
And I was a bit concerned about Chris buying it without seeing it in YEARS. Expectations vary between people as to what is expected from a fairly high end and well modified car, not to mention it was a sizable amount of money involved.
And I was a bit concerned about Chris buying it without seeing it in YEARS. Expectations vary between people as to what is expected from a fairly high end and well modified car, not to mention it was a sizable amount of money involved.
Update: This thread started as a hunt across the fox market that led to an amazing fox. I really like the search & story, and I'm going to keep it going as the progress thread.
So, I can't begin to describe how much fun I've had with the ol' '93 over the last months. It's been out and about in the Monterey area, and it's getting attention! Just today, I went to pick up some parts from the store driving my Saturn, and when the guy at the counter asked for the model, he asked to see a picture. He recognized it immediately and said he'd seen me around before. Another time, a guy started telling me about this beautiful blue fox he'd seen around with True Forged wheels, and I got excited because, lol, I didn't realize he was talking about my car. I finally figured it out and when he said he hadn't met the guy yet, I shook his hand and introduced myself
. At a fun ford weekend at Sacramento Raceway Park, --> Link <-- at least 2 guys asked me if the car came out of Idaho without being prompted! Wow! They'd known the car and Joe long before and recognized it clearly.
Now, I never was big on taking pics of the old black '91, but then it's just not as photogenic as the '93. I've taken a few. Here's my favorite one of the car since I've had it:
The car has gone to a dragstrip once to a fun ford weekend event in Sacremento where it ran a best of [email protected] mph @ 12-13psi. It doesn't 60' well, but 29mph in the back half ain't too bad! The 60' might come down a bit with seat time and when I replace these pretty old (I gather) ET Street SS tires with a fresh set (soon). It also outran a powershifted hellcat challenger from a roll on a highway. If you'd like to read about a little action, you can check that out over on the SVT forums. I'll post links, but will also remove them if this is a TOS violation; apologies if so: Blown S197 & Several others.
Now as far as progress goes, I haven't had to do too much, though tuning's been a bear. I've easily spent 80+ hours tuning, learning to tune, coding a program in python to tune, adjusting, tweeking, etc... but I've thoroughly enjoyed that part.
Primarily I've learned a ton about tuning, thanks a bunch to Steve @a91what and have gotten the car running pretty nicely on 91 octane, whereas it was previously running on E85. Now, I'm not a pro and there are still some things I wish I could figure out. For example, I don't like how it spikes lean between gears, but they are so sharp and by the time I'm back in gear AFR is back where it should be. Cold idle is stable, but a bit finicky. I'm playing some tricks to keep the car from stumbling on initial acceleration. But, all in all, I think most people would be pretty thrilled with its driveability on the street, especially considering what it is. When it's warm, it feels/drives almost stock.
Today, I wanted to add a couple of recent adjustments. I've had an issue with belt squeal. The old alternator bracket was the sliding bolt kind:
And, perhaps there's a straight forward way to ensure good tension, but I found belt adjustments to be a 2-man job. So, I swapped over to an adjustment rod setup that makes doing it alone a lot easier and I can progressively increase or decrease tension if there's still squeal:
I also went to a Continental 4060457 45.7" belt that has the same design as the old goodyear gatorback belts:
Right before these adjustments (after I'd ordered the parts), a powersteering pump bolt backed out to the point that it hit the pulley, and I hope that explains why I lost the outer most (radiator side) rib on the original belt. There's still a bit of squeal when I rev the engine and it's still cold, but I hope it's just a matter of increasing tension.
I've also noticed some inconsistency in boost pressure. It seemed to spike early and drop off significantly. I've seriously noticed it jump on initial spool as high as 14 psi and drop off to less than 8 by the end of the run on my datalogs. Also, when I adjusted the Eboost2's set point, it took huge changes to get modest differences until suddenly going from 72 to 73 resultsd in overboost at 16+ psi. That's scary on 91 octane, but I'd tuned 8* safety timing and very rich on fuel if I ever went higher than 15. I started thinking that the spring in my wastegate was too light @ perhaps 6-7 psi, plus it didn't quite look right to me. I thought maybe it was one of my old BOV springs or something. So, I bought a complete set of Tial Wastegate springs and popped a 10 psi spring in today. On the first drive with the Eboost2 set to 0, I mashed it, and got out of it as I heard it spool... F#%$! 16.7 psi! Wow. I'm glad I got out of that immediately. I pulled out the manual and found that the wastegate solenoid was plumbed to the wrong ports! whew. That's a relief. I re-plumbed it, and on the next drive, boost shot to 11.4 psi and then settled in the 10.4-ish range dropping no lower than 10.1. Much better! Hopefully, I'll see similarly smooth levels as I adjust the EBC. I plan to run a 12psi setting and a 14psi setting for 93 octane. I'll go beyond those on race fuel, of course. New plumbing job pics in next post:
So, I can't begin to describe how much fun I've had with the ol' '93 over the last months. It's been out and about in the Monterey area, and it's getting attention! Just today, I went to pick up some parts from the store driving my Saturn, and when the guy at the counter asked for the model, he asked to see a picture. He recognized it immediately and said he'd seen me around before. Another time, a guy started telling me about this beautiful blue fox he'd seen around with True Forged wheels, and I got excited because, lol, I didn't realize he was talking about my car. I finally figured it out and when he said he hadn't met the guy yet, I shook his hand and introduced myself
. At a fun ford weekend at Sacramento Raceway Park, --> Link <-- at least 2 guys asked me if the car came out of Idaho without being prompted! Wow! They'd known the car and Joe long before and recognized it clearly.Now, I never was big on taking pics of the old black '91, but then it's just not as photogenic as the '93. I've taken a few. Here's my favorite one of the car since I've had it:
The car has gone to a dragstrip once to a fun ford weekend event in Sacremento where it ran a best of [email protected] mph @ 12-13psi. It doesn't 60' well, but 29mph in the back half ain't too bad! The 60' might come down a bit with seat time and when I replace these pretty old (I gather) ET Street SS tires with a fresh set (soon). It also outran a powershifted hellcat challenger from a roll on a highway. If you'd like to read about a little action, you can check that out over on the SVT forums. I'll post links, but will also remove them if this is a TOS violation; apologies if so: Blown S197 & Several others.
Now as far as progress goes, I haven't had to do too much, though tuning's been a bear. I've easily spent 80+ hours tuning, learning to tune, coding a program in python to tune, adjusting, tweeking, etc... but I've thoroughly enjoyed that part.
Primarily I've learned a ton about tuning, thanks a bunch to Steve @a91what and have gotten the car running pretty nicely on 91 octane, whereas it was previously running on E85. Now, I'm not a pro and there are still some things I wish I could figure out. For example, I don't like how it spikes lean between gears, but they are so sharp and by the time I'm back in gear AFR is back where it should be. Cold idle is stable, but a bit finicky. I'm playing some tricks to keep the car from stumbling on initial acceleration. But, all in all, I think most people would be pretty thrilled with its driveability on the street, especially considering what it is. When it's warm, it feels/drives almost stock.
Today, I wanted to add a couple of recent adjustments. I've had an issue with belt squeal. The old alternator bracket was the sliding bolt kind:
And, perhaps there's a straight forward way to ensure good tension, but I found belt adjustments to be a 2-man job. So, I swapped over to an adjustment rod setup that makes doing it alone a lot easier and I can progressively increase or decrease tension if there's still squeal:
I also went to a Continental 4060457 45.7" belt that has the same design as the old goodyear gatorback belts:
Right before these adjustments (after I'd ordered the parts), a powersteering pump bolt backed out to the point that it hit the pulley, and I hope that explains why I lost the outer most (radiator side) rib on the original belt. There's still a bit of squeal when I rev the engine and it's still cold, but I hope it's just a matter of increasing tension.
I've also noticed some inconsistency in boost pressure. It seemed to spike early and drop off significantly. I've seriously noticed it jump on initial spool as high as 14 psi and drop off to less than 8 by the end of the run on my datalogs. Also, when I adjusted the Eboost2's set point, it took huge changes to get modest differences until suddenly going from 72 to 73 resultsd in overboost at 16+ psi. That's scary on 91 octane, but I'd tuned 8* safety timing and very rich on fuel if I ever went higher than 15. I started thinking that the spring in my wastegate was too light @ perhaps 6-7 psi, plus it didn't quite look right to me. I thought maybe it was one of my old BOV springs or something. So, I bought a complete set of Tial Wastegate springs and popped a 10 psi spring in today. On the first drive with the Eboost2 set to 0, I mashed it, and got out of it as I heard it spool... F#%$! 16.7 psi! Wow. I'm glad I got out of that immediately. I pulled out the manual and found that the wastegate solenoid was plumbed to the wrong ports! whew. That's a relief. I re-plumbed it, and on the next drive, boost shot to 11.4 psi and then settled in the 10.4-ish range dropping no lower than 10.1. Much better! Hopefully, I'll see similarly smooth levels as I adjust the EBC. I plan to run a 12psi setting and a 14psi setting for 93 octane. I'll go beyond those on race fuel, of course. New plumbing job pics in next post:
Last edited:
Wastegate plumbing:
Old: Source to port 2, bottom WG to port 3, top WG to port 1.
New: Compressor/source runs to tee and then to lower WG & Port 1 (right side solenoid from front of car). Top WG to Port 2 (left side from front of car) Port 3 (top of solenoid) open to atmosphere. Read this from manual & confirmed on my '91.
Future plans:
I had an issue on one of my 2nd gear burnouts where the clutch slipped instead of the tires. I got out of it within about 2 seconds, because something seemed odd, and the clutch has not slipped since. However, I definitely prefer the McLeod Original Street Twin in my '91 to the Spec 3+ in this car. So, I've got a Twin Disc, trans spacer, adjustable pivot ball, and the bearings ready to go in. I plan to let Advanced Auto Electric in San Ramon do the job, because they did well on the '91 installation correcting previous installations from other shops and dealing with run-around from McLeod. I'm not happy to be putting money back in McLeod's pockets, but I do like the product once it's working.
I've also bought an HVC II coil for installation, which I plan to install eventually when I upgrade the ignition system from the current TFI to a crank trigger. I had a TFI module go out on me a couple weeks after I picked up the car, which was no issue, because Joe sent me spare TFI modules and even a spare distributor. I decided at that point that I just love the crank trigger's timing stability and like getting rid of the TFI altogether. So, that's on the docket, but as things are running well right now, it might be a while for that.
I've swapped the oil once. How often would you guys recommend changing oil on turbo cars? I'm thinking 2k miles max... maybe 1k. I've adopted Joe's Rotella T6 precedent with this car. If it ran fine on it before, it'll be fine now. Plus, it's conveniently what I already run in my '00 F250 Powerstroke.
The speedometer reads ~5mph while stopped. I'm planning to get into the gauge and reset the needle. And, though D&D told me most viper transmissions were 7-tooth speedo drive gears, I used the correct speedo gear for that and it goes from 5mph fast at 0 to even at 40mph and reads lower at speeds over that. I think the speedo drive gear is actually a 6 tooth, which he said actual vipers and old aftermarket units had. I guess this is an older unit. So, I'll have that gear dropped in when I get the twin-disc installed.
It's about time to order some tires. I have to say that I like the ET Street SS tires a lot. The ET Street R might be a better drag tire, but I really like the stability of the SS. So, within the next couple months, I'll have a new set sent out.
Alright! I guess I'm done with the novel for now. I'll try to keep the updates smaller and more frequent in the future.
Chris
Old: Source to port 2, bottom WG to port 3, top WG to port 1.
New: Compressor/source runs to tee and then to lower WG & Port 1 (right side solenoid from front of car). Top WG to Port 2 (left side from front of car) Port 3 (top of solenoid) open to atmosphere. Read this from manual & confirmed on my '91.
Future plans:
I had an issue on one of my 2nd gear burnouts where the clutch slipped instead of the tires. I got out of it within about 2 seconds, because something seemed odd, and the clutch has not slipped since. However, I definitely prefer the McLeod Original Street Twin in my '91 to the Spec 3+ in this car. So, I've got a Twin Disc, trans spacer, adjustable pivot ball, and the bearings ready to go in. I plan to let Advanced Auto Electric in San Ramon do the job, because they did well on the '91 installation correcting previous installations from other shops and dealing with run-around from McLeod. I'm not happy to be putting money back in McLeod's pockets, but I do like the product once it's working.
I've also bought an HVC II coil for installation, which I plan to install eventually when I upgrade the ignition system from the current TFI to a crank trigger. I had a TFI module go out on me a couple weeks after I picked up the car, which was no issue, because Joe sent me spare TFI modules and even a spare distributor. I decided at that point that I just love the crank trigger's timing stability and like getting rid of the TFI altogether. So, that's on the docket, but as things are running well right now, it might be a while for that.
I've swapped the oil once. How often would you guys recommend changing oil on turbo cars? I'm thinking 2k miles max... maybe 1k. I've adopted Joe's Rotella T6 precedent with this car. If it ran fine on it before, it'll be fine now. Plus, it's conveniently what I already run in my '00 F250 Powerstroke.
The speedometer reads ~5mph while stopped. I'm planning to get into the gauge and reset the needle. And, though D&D told me most viper transmissions were 7-tooth speedo drive gears, I used the correct speedo gear for that and it goes from 5mph fast at 0 to even at 40mph and reads lower at speeds over that. I think the speedo drive gear is actually a 6 tooth, which he said actual vipers and old aftermarket units had. I guess this is an older unit. So, I'll have that gear dropped in when I get the twin-disc installed.
It's about time to order some tires. I have to say that I like the ET Street SS tires a lot. The ET Street R might be a better drag tire, but I really like the stability of the SS. So, within the next couple months, I'll have a new set sent out.
Alright! I guess I'm done with the novel for now. I'll try to keep the updates smaller and more frequent in the future.
Chris
Last edited:
I bet that car is a blast Chris.
I was stationed at Ord back in the early eighties. I could imagine cruising down by Big Sur is about as fun as it gets.
I was stationed at Ord back in the early eighties. I could imagine cruising down by Big Sur is about as fun as it gets.
I love seeing this car being the topic of discussion again. As youve stated, its a well known car with a great history, and many folks' dream fox. Keep up the perfecting of it!
Thanks, guys. Dave, ord is a couple miles from my house. The barracks are run down and a college campus took over a major part of it.
cute car, will it do a burnout ?
It is really awesome you are dialing it in and making it yours, I like the idea of the twin disk, I never really liked the SPEC in it.
It is really awesome you are dialing it in and making it yours, I like the idea of the twin disk, I never really liked the SPEC in it.
I've been debating going to a mcloed or centerforce dfx. The heavy on or off clutch I have right now is a deterrent to drive the car. If I don't drive the car for a while, the first time I do, my leg muscles gets sore.
If McLeod's support isn't great as you suggest, I may lean towards the DFX.
I've always had good luck with centerforce, the first time I drove one after having some other clutch, I damn near drove my leg through the floor it was so light.
If McLeod's support isn't great as you suggest, I may lean towards the DFX.
I've always had good luck with centerforce, the first time I drove one after having some other clutch, I damn near drove my leg through the floor it was so light.
I got the impression there that centerforce had a twin-disc product I had missed somehow. So, I looked up the DFX and landed on this page: http://www.centerforce.com/products/dfx-clutch-series
It says that due to materials used the DFX is more aggressive with less dampening. This can cause drivetrain noise and chatter.
So, what I'm guessing is that they're using ceramic discs (metallic as opposed to organic) friction material. It sounds comparable to spec's approach. The weights on the pressure plate look like a different setup than I've ever seen, though. So, I'd be interested in trying one just to feel the difference.
So, from what I gather in the world of clutches, is that if you want a higher capacity clutch, it comes down to surface area (multi-disc), clamp load (increased pedal effort), or material (ceramic instead of organic). Pick your poison. The last two have driveability issues that I'm hoping to avoid with the twin-disc. I don't have a lot of time with the twin disc in my black car, but I really liked its pedal effort, smooth engagement (lack of chatter), and capacity.
The only other twin disc I'm aware of for our cars is spec, but it's more expensive, and I've never had a spec that didn't chatter.
Last, before recommending a clutch change, no insult intended, but I just wanna make sure you've got a steeda or MM clutch cable and a good quadrant.
ty cables gave me some of the worst experiences driving a fox I've ever had. I sincerely considered getting away from the fox platform in 2005 if I couldn't resolve the stiff pedal and stretching cables. After the swap to OEM/MM/Steeda cables, I've never had the same problem. 2nd, I like a bigger quadrant with a lot of range, especially for a twin disc, because it helps ensure a full release and full engagement, but they also stiffen the pedal. With a single disc, I noticed that my old UPR triple hook quadrant lightened the pedal and I could adjust the clutch to release fully with a single disc. I'd say it lightened the pedal by 15-20%.
Chris
It says that due to materials used the DFX is more aggressive with less dampening. This can cause drivetrain noise and chatter.
So, what I'm guessing is that they're using ceramic discs (metallic as opposed to organic) friction material. It sounds comparable to spec's approach. The weights on the pressure plate look like a different setup than I've ever seen, though. So, I'd be interested in trying one just to feel the difference.
So, from what I gather in the world of clutches, is that if you want a higher capacity clutch, it comes down to surface area (multi-disc), clamp load (increased pedal effort), or material (ceramic instead of organic). Pick your poison. The last two have driveability issues that I'm hoping to avoid with the twin-disc. I don't have a lot of time with the twin disc in my black car, but I really liked its pedal effort, smooth engagement (lack of chatter), and capacity.
The only other twin disc I'm aware of for our cars is spec, but it's more expensive, and I've never had a spec that didn't chatter.
Last, before recommending a clutch change, no insult intended, but I just wanna make sure you've got a steeda or MM clutch cable and a good quadrant.
ty cables gave me some of the worst experiences driving a fox I've ever had. I sincerely considered getting away from the fox platform in 2005 if I couldn't resolve the stiff pedal and stretching cables. After the swap to OEM/MM/Steeda cables, I've never had the same problem. 2nd, I like a bigger quadrant with a lot of range, especially for a twin disc, because it helps ensure a full release and full engagement, but they also stiffen the pedal. With a single disc, I noticed that my old UPR triple hook quadrant lightened the pedal and I could adjust the clutch to release fully with a single disc. I'd say it lightened the pedal by 15-20%.Chris
I have whatever quadrant kit and cable came with the promotion setup I have.
http://promotionpowertrain.com/ford-clutch-related.html
It's pretty much the one on that page, except red.
Personally, I liked the stock setup, but one day it got stuck.
A lot of the 03 cobra guys use the dfx, seems to be the goto clutch for those guys.
Since I have a tko600 with 26 spline shaft and a flywheel drilled for both 10.5 and 11 (I think those are the two sizes), I can use pretty much anything I want as a clutch.
I think my issue is more the chatter and the effort combined. I may be willing to deal with a little chatter, but not the effort, although the cobra guys don't seem to complain about it chatter.
I really wanted to do a hydraulic conversion, but dohc cars (any other them, not just my car) don't have the clearance necessary because of the heads.
I think the front control arms are literally the last changeable original style parts left on my car.
Gotta remember, I've had this car since 93.
http://promotionpowertrain.com/ford-clutch-related.html
It's pretty much the one on that page, except red.
Personally, I liked the stock setup, but one day it got stuck.
A lot of the 03 cobra guys use the dfx, seems to be the goto clutch for those guys.
Since I have a tko600 with 26 spline shaft and a flywheel drilled for both 10.5 and 11 (I think those are the two sizes), I can use pretty much anything I want as a clutch.
I think my issue is more the chatter and the effort combined. I may be willing to deal with a little chatter, but not the effort, although the cobra guys don't seem to complain about it chatter.
I really wanted to do a hydraulic conversion, but dohc cars (any other them, not just my car) don't have the clearance necessary because of the heads.
I think the front control arms are literally the last changeable original style parts left on my car.
Gotta remember, I've had this car since 93.
Walt says that cable is from the same source that Steeda uses. So, should be good. I use their double hook quadrant. High ramp rate makes a tougher pedal, though. So, based on what you're saying, I agree with your direction, even without any experience with that specific clutch. would be interested to hear what you think. Also, do you plan to use the 11"? It effectively adds mass but also surface area.
I'm not really sure which size i'll go with.
With 500ftlbs pretty much available from like 2500rpm 6500rpm, i'm not really sure mass matters much.
With the current clutch I've never had any grip issues and I know that's a 10.5, since I used it when I had a pushrod engine.
At most the car would ever see is a whipple and 600rwhp and even that is a long shot. Would have to be a killer deal (which sometimes happens with a friend owning mustang shop).
The car is already a low rpm handful on drag radials. I just don't see the need for more, but I've said that before and done it anyway...
Edit: For the record, I have a history of looking at a cheaper item (like the dfx) and then worrying about buyers remorse of not buying the best available, changing my mind and going with the more expensive option.
I feel like if the buy a cheaper item, i'll always wonder what the better one is like, if I just skip to the best, I never have to wonder.
Last edited:
Mass is a bad thing. The main issue is the shock to your transmission on launch and on hard shifts. The lower the rotating mass, the less likely you are to tear up your trans. Though, the TKO is a pretty stout setup that would probably be ok, regardless.
I dunno, man. If I were in your shoes, I'd probably go for the RST, based on the power you're talking about, but I admit I'm intrigued by the DFX. I hope to get to try one out one day. Wish you were in this area. I'd let you get a feel for a twin disk setup.
I dunno, man. If I were in your shoes, I'd probably go for the RST, based on the power you're talking about, but I admit I'm intrigued by the DFX. I hope to get to try one out one day. Wish you were in this area. I'd let you get a feel for a twin disk setup.
RXT and RST have, I believe, the same clamp load. The RST is organic, whereas the RXT is ceramic. It's capable of holding a lot more power, but should have more chatter and shock the drivetrain a bit more. On the bright side, ceramic handles heat a lot better, which is more appropriate for burnouts and slipping the clutch on the launch. The RST is rated at 800 hp, the RXT is rated to 1000.
