help me decide: 302 or 351

Stopsign32v · May 10, 2009

Gonna be another slow 351W car. You guys help him out, I'm gonna go to another thread.

99FiveOh · May 10, 2009

Not everyone has unlimited funds to throw at their cars. I have 3 kids and a wife to take care of so my car has to come second to my family. This means getting things when/if I can. My motor is TIRED and about ready to meet it's maker! This means I have to get moving on something else before it goes.

Since my plan is boost anyway, I can just have a good, stockish and reliable 351W which should be more powerful right out of the box than my tired old 302, do you agree? Then boost it later on. Hell, if my old 95 could handle 15 psi on it's stock motor then a 351 should be able to handle it as well.

At least that's my way of thinking. Right now though I would just like a smooth running engine that's bigger than a 302.

99FiveOh · May 10, 2009

Stopsign32v said:
I say aluminum flywheel. They have weights you can take off and change so you should never have to get another flywheel again unless you change to a different input shaft.

Why not just get a cheap OTS cam now that will give you more power? A cam is CHEAP! Don't be such a cheap ass. It will end up costing you more anyways.

What cam would you suggest then? I'm not interested in switching to a different valve spring so it'll have to play nice with the stock pieces.

Stopsign32v · May 10, 2009

The_Mustang said:
What cam would you suggest then? I'm not interested in switching to a different valve spring so it'll have to play nice with the stock pieces.

A TFS 1 or 2 would be fine. Get you some used TW heads or the new "fast as cast" ones for 1400 with the correct valve springs. You could build your own turbo kit for the car if you know how to. Its not hard. I just think it is dumb doing something twice. THAT is what will end up running you into the ground $$$$ wise. By "tired" what do you mean with your motor now? Will it drive at all? You need to be realistic now about what your goal is and sit down and figure out the best way to get there. The only thing you are doing right, right now is you are going with a 351 over a 302. Other than that I see you unhappy and your wallet lighter in the future.

99FiveOh · May 10, 2009

Here's how I see it:

When you buy your Mustang brand new, it has a wimpy 302 in it already. So you remedy that problem by adding go fast goodies to it as money allows to make it quicker and more fun to drive. Call it a clean slate if you will.

Now think of what I'm doing as simply starting with a "new" clean slate, but with a 351 engine instead of a 302 engine. This way, I'll have a better, stronger foundation for future mods.

By tired I mean the engine feels like it's loose as hell, when you rev it up it feels like it's gonna come apart! I can tell the difference between a motor with a bad vibration and one that's just ready to be retired/rebuilt. My engine has both a brand new flywheel and balancer and still feels like crap. Either way, it has over 160K miles on it so it'll be pointless to start modding it now.

sn-95matt5-0 · May 10, 2009

81-95 HARMONIC BALANCER KIT, 5.0/5.8L, 28oz, POWERFORCE STREET, LIGHTWEIGHT MUSTANG

i just picked one up for my 351w to keep from keeping the stock piece. i only paid 85 tax and all at a local performance shop.

i hear you on the budget thing. i started my motor i was gonna go all out 408w supercharged.had a reality check and thought well i'll just throw on some gt40s and call it a day. now i keep finding good deals on parts. sure i got a pretty pile of go fast goodies but the motor still isnt in the car.

95Vert383AOD · May 10, 2009

Stopsign32v said:
Gonna be another slow 351W car. You guys help him out, I'm gonna go to another thread.

I agree. I actually had someone ask why i was building a 351 based motor. He said 351's are slower than 302 builds

Anyways....don't waste money on the bottom half just yet. Most important thing you need are H/C/I and i mean you need a bare minimum of an AFR 185. AFR 205 optimal. A cam with around a .570-.590 lift and a Trickflow R or some intake that supports a 80-90mm Throttle body. Headers should be 1 3/4 or 1 7/8. 2.5" Exhaust is fine for now. Use an injector no smaller than 36lbs.

If not you will have a Torquey Dog motor. But on the bright side you can get sub frames and a trailer hitch and tow things with a truck motor.

The words "Budget and 351" are cousins of "Truck and Tow".

Chris

99FiveOh · May 10, 2009

What kind of power did the 95 R put down? it was 300 wasn't it? What all parts did it have? I'm sure it wasn't AFR 185's or anything close. What kind of cam and exhaust did it run.. I'm gonna have to do some research.

If memory serves me, the Lightning motor wasn't really anything special either, GT40 heads and intake, correct? I believe the cam controls the power band mostly so if I were to swap the cam I should be fine.

99FiveOh · May 10, 2009

This kind of motor would suit me just fine:

History of the Cobra R

"With the previous R model Ford decided to keep the Cobra's stock 5.0L engine, but this year things would be different. For the first time in two decades the Cobra R was equipped with an EPA approved 351cid (5.8L) Windsor motor that sported cast iron GT40 heads, a roller camshaft, and a specially designed (to fit the 351) lower fuel injected intake manifold mated to a regular Cobra upper intake. All of this resulting in an engine that produced a healthy 300hp and 365lb/ft of torque which according to most sources was slightly under rated. "

1slow95 · May 11, 2009

Stopsign32v said:
Gonna be another slow 351W car. You guys help him out, I'm gonna go to another thread.

Not everybody wants a race car. All the "go big or go home" talk on forums gets kind of irritating after a while. I agree it's better to do it right the first time, but then you run into the problem where your budget of $4000 is now at $8000 and you have to cut corners just to get the car back together.

I say a stock-ish 351W would be a good replacement for a worn out 302. So what if it's a truck motor in a Mustang? The low end torque will make it a hell of a fun street car. Just don't expect great numbers at the drag strip.

I have some experience on both sides here. I got sucked into the "go big or go home" idea and built a monster engine. It's fun to race and screw around with, but daily driving SUCKS! (I'm making some progress on improving that tho ) Then I helped my cousin swap from a stock 4.6 2v to a 5.4 2v w/stage 1 cams and all the bolt on's. Yeah, it only runs 13.9's, but he drives the car any time and any where he wants and it's just plain fun to drive all the time. Yes it would have been faster with 4v, but it would have cost over double what the 2v cost. It's good enough "for now" and can always be upgraded later.

99FiveOh · May 11, 2009

Yes! That's what I'm shooting for, a pretty much stock 351 with good street manners for a later boosted application. I'm going to let boost give me the big HP and not hard parts.

Venom351R · May 11, 2009

the 95 R engine only has 9:0 compression but will still pull north of 300 at the wheels. With H/C/I mine put down 333/338, mods in sig

99FiveOh · May 11, 2009

Redline_351R said:
the 95 R engine only has 9:0 compression but will still pull north of 300 at the wheels. With H/C/I mine put down 333/338, mods in sig

Don't you think those numbers are a little low for your combo? They just seem low to me for having AFR heads and such. I mean, if the stock R 351 will pull over 300 at the tires, are you telling me that AFR 185's are only worth 33 hp over the GT40 heads?

Venom351R · May 11, 2009

The_Mustang said:
Don't you think those numbers are a little low for your combo? They just seem low to me for having AFR heads and such. I mean, if the stock R 351 will pull over 300 at the tires, are you telling me that AFR 185's are only worth 33 hp over the GT40 heads?

It was rated at 300 HP at the flywheel RWHP would be about 15% less then that. There are a few reasons why my numbers are on the lower 300 side, Long Tubes and the SN95 TB set up being one some of them. Whether something is off on my combo or not Im not sure but the numbers are the numbers. They are also not SAE corrected.

99FiveOh · May 11, 2009

Ok, you confused me because in your first post you said: "the 95 R engine only has 9:0 compression but will still pull north of 300 at the wheels"

Venom351R · May 11, 2009

The_Mustang said:
Ok, you confused me because in your first post you said: "the 95 R engine only has 9:0 compression but will still pull north of 300 at the wheels"

yeah, with mods, not stock.

Black95GTS · May 12, 2009

Low-5.0 said:
Not everybody wants a race car. All the "go big or go home" talk on forums gets kind of irritating after a while. I agree it's better to do it right the first time, but then you run into the problem where your budget of $4000 is now at $8000 and you have to cut corners just to get the car back together.

I say a stock-ish 351W would be a good replacement for a worn out 302. So what if it's a truck motor in a Mustang? The low end torque will make it a hell of a fun street car. Just don't expect great numbers at the drag strip.

I have some experience on both sides here. I got sucked into the "go big or go home" idea and built a monster engine. It's fun to race and screw around with, but daily driving SUCKS! (I'm making some progress on improving that tho ) Then I helped my cousin swap from a stock 4.6 2v to a 5.4 2v w/stage 1 cams and all the bolt on's. Yeah, it only runs 13.9's, but he drives the car any time and any where he wants and it's just plain fun to drive all the time. Yes it would have been faster with 4v, but it would have cost over double what the 2v cost. It's good enough "for now" and can always be upgraded later.

I look at your combination and I don't think its a monster at all, I think its very well thought out, makes great power and torque, and uses quality parts. If you're doing an engine build and don't crack the 1rwhp per CI, its not a good build. If I did a 351 build I'd probably copy what you did, excepting I'd throw in a Gforce T5 instead of the TKO600.

Adam

Venom351R · May 12, 2009

Low-5.0 said:
I have some experience on both sides here. I got sucked into the "go big or go home" idea and built a monster engine. It's fun to race and screw around with, but daily driving SUCKS! (I'm making some progress on improving that tho ).

What about the daily driving sucks and what do you think is causing it and what are you doing to fix it? What is your compression ratio?

Im in the process of planing together a 408W and I want it to be street friendly but also rip off 11's at the track. I want in the range of 450 at the wheels

1slow95 · May 12, 2009

Redline_351R said:
What about the daily driving sucks and what do you think is causing it and what are you doing to fix it? What is your compression ratio?

Im in the process of planing together a 408W and I want it to be street friendly but also rip off 11's at the track. I want in the range of 450 at the wheels

Low rpm bucking/surging, and the idle never was steady all the time. Since I installed the AEM EMS and switched from MAF to MAP it's much better, and my tune still needs a ton of work.

My compression should be around 10.5:1 or just a bit higher.

Pokageek · May 12, 2009

Same thing here. LOTS of drive-ability issues that have been a PIA. The car had the best driveability with the XX (not going to say which ones..) heads and shorty headers.

I expect about = 500rwhp out of it this week on the Dyno. We'll see how close I can get.

help me decide: 302 or 351

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