How could we keep up with an LS1 with the same power?

Zero Signal · Feb 10, 2006

It seems like the LS1's and even bolt-on LT1 trans-am or camaros run so damn well with the power they have. I don't get how they can so so much better than a Mustang with the same power curve. My only conclusion is that their suspension and drivetrain must be far superior

So then what kind of chassis/suspension/drivetrain mods would we need to keep up with that?

super302 · Feb 10, 2006

they have really high gears (numerically low) and there engine makes great power at nearly ever rpm which translates into:
They pull, and dont quit

There cars are actually very heavy, they do have a better suspension set up than our mustangs, but i believe it is more handling oriented

Yobi1Kanobi · Feb 10, 2006

wow no body bashing yet

i am so proud

SWYZ721 · Feb 10, 2006

They do have .7 more liters, Ford 351Ws seem to match well.

Also, notice how the new 05 3V intakes look exactly like the LS1 intakes, and even the LT1 looks close, I think they have a superior design.

And yes the Camaro may have better handling, but that long low body kills weight transfer.

6-speeds equal staying in the power band with much ease.

They also rev-higher (LS1s)

Dunno, those are my opinions.

Even the 05 3V make more power per lb of boost than the 03 Cobra 4V motors, so maybe the intake design is just that good.

Pokageek · Feb 10, 2006

I owned a Z28 LT1, a 1990 Mustang GT and now a 94gt. I can tell you exactly the difference between the cars. Basically, the 350ci (specifiaclly LT/LS-1's have a Loooonnnnggggerrrr pull.

Even if the 5.0 pulls harder with h/c/i , you have to shift and the LT-1 has not shifted and still pulling hard in its gear. From my personal experience, the 350 has a longer torque curve and HP curve. Even after driving my 5.0 at full throttle (which with my mods hopefully until tuesday only seems to run right at full throttle (in the shop)) with all of its mods, might pull as hard but still not as long across as wide a band as the 350 (LT-1/LS-1). That's from personal experience. Still, given that, I like my 5.0 vert better than my Z28.

EDIT: When I take it to the track, I guess that will tell the true story.

nmcgrawj · Feb 11, 2006

The weight difference is not that big...unless u compare like a lightweight GTS to a vert trans-am. But i think if u take the average mustang...which is what about 3400lbs...the f-body will be in the general neighborhood. Vettes only way what...3100?

The advantages run deeper than the intake. Their head design is also killer. They have 45-46 more cubic inches that the 5.0...which combined with their killer parts gives a un-even match. Even the average run of the mill 351w wont be a direct competitor. Thats why its always funny to hear guys that say "im gonna build a 331 or 347 with AFR185's and go LS1 hunting." I hope they are ALL stock. And this new generation of the GM powerplants is even more insane. They are making tons and tons and tons of power...on motor....ALL emissions legal. Motor for Motor...Ford cant compete. I've heard rumors of Ford going back to the pushrod....not sure how much truth or reality is behind that.

Do you have dyno sheets showing exact curves?

SWYZ721 · Feb 11, 2006

Keep in mind the displacment is now topping 7.0L, I mean yes they do have a great design, but the 5.0 Cammer is still a great comparable engine, OHC is always going to be better. Given all other things equal. Spinning high doesn't hurt either.

nmcgrawj · Feb 11, 2006

SWYZ721 said:
Keep in mind the displacment is now topping 7.0L, I mean yes they do have a great design, but the 5.0 Cammer is still a great comparable engine, OHC is always going to be better. Given all other things equal. Spinning high doesn't hurt either.

What comparable car has the 5.0 cammer? And what about OHC will always make it better?

SeventyMach1 · Feb 11, 2006

SWYZ721 said:
Keep in mind the displacment is now topping 7.0L, I mean yes they do have a great design, but the 5.0 Cammer is still a great comparable engine, OHC is always going to be better. Given all other things equal. Spinning high doesn't hurt either.

I kinda agree. I'm not too sure about OHC always being better ..... but look at what Ford does with the OHC engines. For the amount of displacement, they do good. Look at HP per cubic inch.

SWYZ721 · Feb 11, 2006

nmcgrawj said:
What comparable car has the 5.0 cammer? And what about OHC will always make it better?

It was in reference to engines, not cars.

OHC engines, and expectingly DOHC, can outflow. Include variable valve timing, even better.

nmcgrawj · Feb 11, 2006

SWYZ721 said:
It was in reference to engines, not cars.

OHC engines, and expectingly DOHC, can outflow. Include variable valve timing, even better.

Well....what u say makes "sense" but Ford aint doin it. It doesnt matter what engines you wanna pull out of the top secret lab....what engines are getting put into the cars? What cars are competing against eachother?

Yea, Ford's motors respond very well to boost. But GM's lineup competes with Fords power just in N/A. So then what happends when the GM boys get blown?

final5-0 · Feb 11, 2006

I will get involved in this one

Don't even bring up that mod motor

It ain't apples to apples

We're talkin pushrod motors here

It is all about ...... they've got 50 cubes on us

Larger displacement motors mean more torque
and
More of it everywhere in the rpm range

There are other things that may give them an advantage over us
but
Put a 351 in one of our cars with all other parts of the car and combo on an even steven basis with the bow tie boys and things will be a bit different

One last thing here

I'm not into roundy roundy stuff
but
What kind of motor do the Ford boys use in Nascar

I don't think it is a tiny 302

Grady

SWYZ721 · Feb 11, 2006

nmcgrawj said:
Yea, Ford's motors respond very well to boost. But GM's lineup competes with Fords power just in N/A. So then what happends when the GM boys get blown?

Very true.

I really don't know the ins and outs of R&D and more importantly manufacturing.

I would imagine it is very inexpensive to use multiple variations of the same engine in the lineup of cars, which is what most companies do.

I think there are a TON of factors working into the big equation of PRODUCTION vehicles, many more than we know of, so yes my opions are speculations at best have been based off of the little information I have.

Chevy has held the "power" for a while, but they are STILL putting out cars with the 50yo SBC. Ford incorporating OHC, and more importantly 3V+ per cyl., is going to pay off extremely well in the future. OHC technology is still relatively new and the sooner it is utilized the better. Chevy will be playing catchup.

Factory boosting is still up in the air, obviously there are more moving parts to be coverd by warranty, tuning and engine requirements typically call for a vastly different engine, and mass production is cheaper, not to mention the end users ability to modify much more easily and result in more engine warranties coming from unethical users (I haven't modified anything)

Also this is excluding 42-volt car systems, which will eliminate cams in the first place. In addition to electric motors, which make 100% torque at 0.00 RPM, the exact opposite of engines.

Who knows, ford or chevy (or anyone) could have some crazy electric car on the drawing boards for 2015 for when/if an oil crisis arises. They have to prepare for everything. Research, design, engineering, all take time and money and testing.

SeventyMach1 · Feb 11, 2006

final5-0 said:
What kind of motor do the Ford boys use in Nascar

I don't think it is a tiny 302

Grady

750 HP 358 c.i. N/A .......

I haven't used that little fellow in a while .... ^^^^^

nmcgrawj · Feb 11, 2006

SWYZ721 said:
Very true.

I really don't know the ins and outs of R&D and more importantly manufacturing.

I would imagine it is very inexpensive to use multiple variations of the same engine in the lineup of cars, which is what most companies do.

I think there are a TON of factors working into the big equation of PRODUCTION vehicles, many more than we know of, so yes my opions are speculations at best have been based off of the little information I have.

Chevy has held the "power" for a while, but they are STILL putting out cars with the 50yo SBC. Ford incorporating OHC, and more importantly 3V+ per cyl., is going to pay off extremely well in the future. OHC technology is still relatively new and the sooner it is utilized the better. Chevy will be playing catchup.

Factory boosting is still up in the air, obviously there are more moving parts to be coverd by warranty, tuning and engine requirements typically call for a vastly different engine, and mass production is cheaper, not to mention the end users ability to modify much more easily and result in more engine warranties coming from unethical users (I haven't modified anything)

Also this is excluding 42-volt car systems, which will eliminate cams in the first place. In addition to electric motors, which make 100% torque at 0.00 RPM, the exact opposite of engines.

Who knows, ford or chevy (or anyone) could have some crazy electric car on the drawing boards for 2015 for when/if an oil crisis arises. They have to prepare for everything. Research, design, engineering, all take time and money and testing.

I agree with ya. Only thing though is that yes GM still uses a pushrod motor...but i dont think its the same one from 50yrs ago. The ls1 is different than the lt1 which is different from a straight up Chevy 350 isnt it? I dont know the ins and out of the motors and the exact differences...but i would be willing to bet that the motors are still quite different...although they are the same "design" of using pushrods.

SeventyMach1 · Feb 11, 2006

Yes. The new ones are 345.69 c.i. ..... but they share the same center-to-center bore as the old 350's.

nmcgrawj · Feb 11, 2006

SeventyMach1 said:
Yes. The new ones are 345.69 c.i. ..... but they share the same center-to-center bore as the old 350's.

Well i was referring to the technology that actually goes into the whole motor. Not just the shortblock.

SeventyMach1 · Feb 11, 2006

nmcgrawj said:
Well i was referring to the technology that actually goes into the whole motor. Not just the shortblock.

In that case ..... yes, they are quite different, lol.

nmcgrawj · Feb 11, 2006

SeventyMach1 said:
In that case ..... yes, they are quite different, lol.

Exactly. So their updates to their motor are the right ones...you cant say OHC is the way to go. Because it depends on what your goals are. And we're talking mustangs, camaros, and transams. Not BMW's that practically drive themselves almost

fox racer · Feb 11, 2006

how about an aluminum headed 351 w/ a 6 speed and similar gearing, all in a fox. i think it could take an LS1.

How could we keep up with an LS1 with the same power?

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