The reason i brought all this up is that the dyno cant anticipate what the car will experience on the road. Maybe WOT performance...but not every part throttle experience. Thats why i said a tweecer/pms is a good thing to have because you can see what happends while you are driving....make changes...and be on your way. But then again, i guess someone with enough experience can tune it well enough to get around that, too bad everyone doesnt have someone "good enough" to always get that done.
Well a PMSTweecer can't anticipate part throttle situations which shows why grn92lx is going by the SOTP. If you wanted to (technically) on the dyno you could do some part throttle pulls to simulate and get your a/f ratio on it...so the dyno could still "anticipate"...and I'm sure that would be thrown into the mix of a tuner/tunie.
Well on the "having someone good enough" topic...does that mean all the PMS tuners or Tweecer users are "good enough"...but you can't find a "good enough" on the dyno all the time...I think not It goes both ways in THIS case...
nmcgrawj said:
Well i understand where you are coming from. Like i said its not our battle but your battle with others. People have had bad luck with chips, pms's, tweecer's, but the question is whether the bad luck was because of the actual product or the person using the product. With the knowledge each product can be just as good as any other, but like i said above, not everyone has a person "good enough" to get the job done right the first time. Thats why i like the PMS because its the "easiest" to tune with...and unless you have an extreme combo, i cant see any tuning combo being difficult to get done.
Exactly...it isn't our battle...but on the tuning issue here...the PMS may not be the easiest to everybody (this is like a vicious cycle)...a professional tuner may have it easier for the owner and himself if he does it by chip (or vice versa). Not everyone with a PMS in the palm of their hand is going to be "good enough" either...
nmcgrawj said:
This is another arguement in itself....but IMO thats a complete waste of time. The older computers will need a tune at one point or another so why go back in the future only to have to tune it? When you tune our computers, they are fine and will be just as good as the Fox computer tuned.
If you keep it stock with no other tuning device than yea, the older one is better. But if you are modding it...then u will need a tune at some point or another on ANY computer for maximum performance, safety, efficiency, etc.
The whole point of me bringing that up is how the older ones are more conversant with aftermarket parts which is why I was saying if your going to add a blower/h/c/i to those sn95 cars mys'well replace the ECU with something set for the product instead of "working thru" it with a PMS...and you still have to BUY the software program and a laptop (portable computer) if you don't already have one to work with it properly.
You may need a tune on ANY computer with mods later sometime...but some need it less...
You don't need a laptop to use the Tweecer. I've used my 5 year old computer with the software. And I don't see a need for replacing the chip either. Unless you want to spend another 500+ on replacing the hardware again at a later date, or you don't plan to tune it again, getting the PMS, the Tweecer, or any other piggyback system is advantageous because you can use them to change all of the parameters than an aftermarket chip will, but you can continue to change them with new modifications or if you just feel like tweaking the parameters.
Another cool aspect with the tweecer is that you can set differing tunes that can be toggled with the flip of a switch to account for running nitrous, n/a, valet switch etc...
You don't need a laptop to use the Tweecer. I've used my 5 year old computer with the software. And I don't see a need for replacing the chip either. Unless you want to spend another 500+ on replacing the hardware again at a later date, or you don't plan to tune it again, getting the PMS, the Tweecer, or any other piggyback system is advantageous because you can use them to change all of the parameters than an aftermarket chip will, but you can continue to change them with new modifications or if you just feel like tweaking the parameters.
Another cool aspect with the tweecer is that you can set differing tunes that can be toggled with the flip of a switch to account for running nitrous, n/a, valet switch etc...
I should have rephrased what I put...I meant you need a computer...but MANY use the laptops for portability at the track. Kind of hard to hook up a 19" screen (deep) computer in your car...
You still have to go on the dyno to get real gains figures...so why not get the chip...your going to spend $500 bucks either way (even more for the Tweecer setup)...and once you get the chip if you were to "retune" it...most of your places don't charge that much because the parameters usually being changed is very little and and cost efficeint. You don't spend $500 bucks at the dyno each time...
I should have rephrased what I put...I meant you need a computer...but MANY use the laptops for portability at the track. Kind of hard to hook up a 19" screen (deep) computer in your car...
You still have to go on the dyno to get real gains figures...so why not get the chip...your going to spend $500 bucks either way (even more for the Tweecer setup)...and once you get the chip if you were to "retune" it...most of your places don't charge that much because the parameters usually being changed is very little and and cost efficeint. You don't spend $500 bucks at the dyno each time...
Everything you've said is true, but when you can get a/f runs for free from a friend like I can, the tweecer becomes much more cost effective. Even without free runs, it doesn't take much to optimize a tune once you're close. Just a run or two on a wideband dyno will tell you what you need to know to make the necessary adjustments. If you can get free retunes with a chip and all you have to pay for is dyno time and you trust someone else to tune your car for you, then an aftermarket chip may be the way to go. A/F ratio and timing adjustments generally only need a different multiplier to shift the curve across the entire powerband.
Oh BTW, I've got the old tweecer. I think it cost me right at 250 bux to purchase. I hear that the newer tweecer R/T (?) gives you instant feedback (datalogging) from your computer - a very nice little amenity that you do not get from an aftermarket chip and which can help tremendously with tuning. I'm not familiar with other brands like the EEC-tuner, PMS, or the more expensive pro tuners.
Everything you've said is true, but when you can get a/f runs for free from a friend like I can, the tweecer becomes much more cost effective. Even without free runs, it doesn't take much to optimize a tune once you're close. Just a run or two on a wideband dyno will tell you what you need to know to make the necessary adjustments. If you can get free retunes with a chip and all you have to pay for is dyno time and you trust someone else to tune your car for you, then an aftermarket chip may be the way to go. A/F ratio and timing adjustments generally only need a different multiplier to shift the curve across the entire powerband.
Oh BTW, I've got the old tweecer. I think it cost me right at 250 bux to purchase. I hear that the newer tweecer R/T (?) gives you instant feedback (datalogging) from your computer - a very nice little amenity that you do not get from an aftermarket chip and which can help tremendously with tuning. I'm not familiar with other brands like the EEC-tuner, PMS, or the more expensive pro tuners.