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ignition module, AT vs MT

  • Thread starter Thread starter mob
  • Start date Start date Jun 10, 2011

mob

the guy who hits on his mom
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#1
  • Jun 10, 2011
  • #1
Ok so I am trying to figure out why my car wont start but my main question is what is the difference between a AT and MT module? I went to go buy a module and there are two different ones, I ended up buying a new distributor that comes with the module but it didnt specify AT or MT.

Also can a bad module or pickup sensor cause a car to have spark but not fire the injectors?
 

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  • #2
mob said:
Ok so I am trying to figure out why my car wont start but my main question is what is the difference between a AT and MT module? I went to go buy a module and there are two different ones, I ended up buying a new distributor that comes with the module but it didnt specify AT or MT.

Also can a bad module or pickup sensor cause a car to have spark but not fire the injectors?
Click to expand...

Tech note courtesy of Tmoss
Well, if you include the SN95 style TFI, there are four TFI modules. Two for the distributor mounted style are black and gray and have the pins comming out of the top to plug into the distributor. The SN95 style also has black and gray modules without the pins because they are remotely mounted. The gray modules are "push start" modules.

Ignition dwell with the Push Start (gray module) system is controlled by the TFI module alone, and increases with engine rpm. The Ignition Diagnostic Monitor (IDM) signal on a Push Start TFI system comes from the coil negative circuit and is filtered through a 22k ohm resistor to pin #4 on the EEC-IV computer. The computer monitors this circuit to verify a coil firing for each PIP signal, and sets codes if it sees missing or erratic signals. Another feature that is unique to the Push Start TFI system is the start input on pin #4 of the module connector. This is wired into the starter relay trigger circuit, and signals the TFI module that the engine is cranking. When the module sees battery voltage on this circuit, the SPOUT signal is ignored.

In the early '90s, Ford began using a different TFI system on certain vehicles -- the Computer Controlled Dwell (CCD) TFI system. The TFI module on CCD TFI is always black in color. There are a few major differences between the two systems. As the name implies, with the CCD system, the computer controls primary dwell. The CCD TFI module still ungrounds (fires) the coil at the rising edge of the SPOUT signal, but now the falling edge of the SPOUT signal (which had no meaning to the Push Start TFI module) is used by the CCD TFI module to ground the coil. The PIP signal remains the same 50% duty cycle square wave, but SPOUT signal duty cycle varies according to how much dwell is desired by the computer.

Another major difference between the two systems is the IDM circuit. Pin #4 on the CCD TFI module, which was the start circuit input on the Push Start TFI module, is now the IDM signal, sent directly from the TFI module to pin #4 on the EEC-IV computer. This signal is still a filtered (low voltage) version of the ignition primary waveform, but is filtered internally in the TFI module rather than through an external resistor. There isn't any start circuit input to the CCD TFI module; the module infers engine cranking from a low rpm input from the PIP signal.
Since these two TFI systems are so significantly different, yet so similar in appearance, parts application problems will inevitably occur. A gray Push Start TFI module will plug right into a CCD system, and vice versa. To make matters worse, parts books are often incorrect on TFI module applications! With the incorrect TFI module installed, the vehicle will run, but drivability and MIL (malfunction indicator lamp) problems will result. For instance, if a gray Push Start TFI module is installed in a CCD system, the computer will not be able to control ignition dwell, and the MIL will illuminate with memory codes for the IDM circuit set, as the gray TFI module is incapable of generating an IDM signal to the computer. If a black CCD TFI module is installed in a Push Start system, dwell will remain fixed, since the SPOUT signal duty cycle never changes. If in doubt about which TFI module belongs on a particular vehicle, consult the ignition system-wiring diagram for the vehicle. If the wire going to pin #4 on the EEC-IV computer comes directly from pin #4 of the TFI module, it is a CCD system. If not, it is a Push Start system.

See http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/TFI_5.0_comparison.gif for diagrams of the different TFI modules

End of Tmoss's TFI tech note
__________________


Yes, a bad PIP can make the spark plugs work but not make the computer drive the fuel injectors.

PIP problems & diagnostic info
Spark with the SPOUT out, but not with the SPOUT in suggests a PIP problem. The PIP signal level needs to be above 6.5 volts to trigger the computer, but only needs to be 5.75 volts to trigger the TFI module. Hence with a weak PIP signal, you could get spark but no injector pulse. You will need an oscilloscope or graphing DVM to measure the output voltage since it is not a straight DC voltage.

See http://www.wellsmfgcorp.com/pdf/counterp_v8_i2_2004.pdf and http://www.wellsmfgcorp.com/pdf/counterp_v8_i3_2004.pdf for verification of this little detail from Wells, a manufacturer of TFI modules and ignition system products.
 

mob

the guy who hits on his mom
20+ Year Stangneter
Oct 3, 2003
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#3
  • Jun 10, 2011
  • #3
Thanks Joe, I just ordered a new distributor with everything on it so I hope I get the correct module. But we will see if this fixes the problem.
 
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