Illegal immigration petition

Well, the thread is pretty political.

The situation is so complicated. Simply stoping amnesty is not the answer. I will agree that there needs to be a solution though. I'm sure that any business owner that profits from the cheap labor that illegals provide will be signing your petition. Also, were you aware that the latest propositions for amnesty included people having to pay back-taxes and penalties? These people work hard, make americans money, take their below minimum wage salaries to their families and don't pay taxes on it. See, the whole situation is messed up. Simply kicking people out or other extreme solutions just will not work.
Of course, amnesty will bring in a ton of more tax money...will this mean relief for you and me? probably not, but it gets people on the books. So, maybe read up some more and form your own educated opinion on the subject - not everything you hear on the news, e-amils, or from politicians is accurate.

I might be a little biased though. My wife is Mexican. She was born here, but her parents were not. Her parents were granted a type of amnesty almost 30 years ago and they are the hardest working people I know - they don't take a cent from the government..in fact, I would be willing to bet that her parents have more in the bank in liquid money than most of our homes are worth...did I mention they own their home free and clear? This is all from typical manual labor and not wasting money.

So, sure, there will be some deadbeats that eat away at the system (that happens right now regardless) but there will be more hard-working, tax-paying americans after all of this is said and done. My in-laws are great americans and I'm sure others would like to be too.

stangonline said:

Well, the thread is pretty political.

The situation is so complicated. Simply stoping amnesty is not the answer. I will agree that there needs to be a solution though. I'm sure that any business owner that profits from the cheap labor that illegals provide will be signing your petition. Also, were you aware that the latest propositions for amnesty included people having to pay back-taxes and penalties? These people work hard, make americans money, take their below minimum wage salaries to their families and don't pay taxes on it. See, the whole situation is messed up. Simply kicking people out or other extreme solutions just will not work.
Of course, amnesty will bring in a ton of more tax money...will this mean relief for you and me? probably not, but it gets people on the books. So, maybe read up some more and form your own educated opinion on the subject - not everything you hear on the news, e-amils, or from politicians is accurate.

I might be a little biased though. My wife is Mexican. She was born here, but her parents were not. Her parents were granted a type of amnesty almost 30 years ago and they are the hardest working people I know - they don't take a cent from the government..in fact, I would be willing to bet that her parents have more in the bank in liquid money than most of our homes are worth...did I mention they own their home free and clear? This is all from typical manual labor and not wasting money.

So, sure, there will be some deadbeats that eat away at the system (that happens right now regardless) but there will be more hard-working, tax-paying americans after all of this is said and done. My in-laws are great americans and I'm sure others would like to be too.

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great post. to bad so many people are so closed minded they dont see or care to see whats really going on.

stangonline said:

Well, the thread is pretty political.

The situation is so complicated. Simply stoping amnesty is not the answer. I will agree that there needs to be a solution though. I'm sure that any business owner that profits from the cheap labor that illegals provide will be signing your petition. Also, were you aware that the latest propositions for amnesty included people having to pay back-taxes and penalties? These people work hard, make americans money, take their below minimum wage salaries to their families and don't pay taxes on it. See, the whole situation is messed up. Simply kicking people out or other extreme solutions just will not work.
Of course, amnesty will bring in a ton of more tax money...will this mean relief for you and me? probably not, but it gets people on the books. So, maybe read up some more and form your own educated opinion on the subject - not everything you hear on the news, e-amils, or from politicians is accurate.

I might be a little biased though. My wife is Mexican. She was born here, but her parents were not. Her parents were granted a type of amnesty almost 30 years ago and they are the hardest working people I know - they don't take a cent from the government..in fact, I would be willing to bet that her parents have more in the bank in liquid money than most of our homes are worth...did I mention they own their home free and clear? This is all from typical manual labor and not wasting money.

So, sure, there will be some deadbeats that eat away at the system (that happens right now regardless) but there will be more hard-working, tax-paying americans after all of this is said and done. My in-laws are great americans and I'm sure others would like to be too.

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Very well put and well balanced. I am an Hispanic and it is also very complicated for me to sort out. I feel for both causes and at times I feel guilty for not being more biased towards Mexicans, but I guess that is because I am an American first and foremost. Whatever is decided should be best for our countrys overall interest, not just for Mexicans.

I live in southern california it makes me sad to see that a lot of good jobs go to illegal aliens. The ones that people say americans won't or can't do. I see good jobs like carpenters and electricians all done by illegal aliens. That is not bad labor but jobs americans use to do all the time and the money made off of these jobs stayed in america and did not go to mexico. I am a native american but I would always put america first over my nationality!

Just to show the other end of the spectrum....
My friends father is from Syria, legally, and works as a civil engineer. They have a friend of the family, who is from Syria illegaly. His plan (And his fathers before him) is to work as much as possible, get all his health/dentistry taken care of, get some credit cards, max them out, and then return to Syria (relatively rich by the standards of Syria). And that just pisses me off. And granted, its not always like that. Someone I used to work with at Dunkin Donuts was an illegal immigrant from Turkey, who worked hard and is now a manager who is still working hard. Gotta be tough sleeping at night, knowing that if you slip and someone gets pissed, your going home....
Unless your Fool Blooded "Indian/Native American/First People/Whatever is politically correct at this point", someone in your family came to this country. from somewhere else.
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And as for Online E-Petitions, they tend to be disregarded. Politicians believe they are fleeting whims, as it takes about 30 seconds to sign an online petition, where as it takes more effort to physically sign, or even better, to write a letter.

My parents immigrated here as well. They worked hard, and legally went through the processes necessary to come here. They had nothing but after a lot of hard work and schooling they are now banking it and living a very very high quality life. The problem is most of the money earned in the mexican immigrant situation goes back to Mexico, which does not benefit our economy in fact it can hurt. I am not against immigration, because we all know there is some guy with a camaro sitting in his trailer right now using his welfare money to pay for his beer (Sorry chevy guys but you know it to be true), but it needs to be done properly. They need to speak OUR language, pay OUR taxes (it isn't fair that they are using our roads, schools, welfare (because they will have many kids here when illegal that will be US citizens), and our soldiers are dying to protect their freedom for free), and put money back into OUR society. America comes first, we can't be catering our nation to serve the problems of others. They can get an education, work hard, and legally come to our nation. I personally don't want someone to come into my nation not speak the language, barely scrape a living, then have 10 kids that will have to be supported by my taxes, and then have any money made sent out, then when they get deported I have to worry about increased crime and drugs because their kids weren't raised properly. It just isn't fair, we have standards if you don't meet them then sorry. I am sorry if this sounds harsh but this is the honest and logical truth.

69Rcode_Mach1 said:

I am sorry if this sounds harsh but this is the honest and logical truth.

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No, it's your honest opinion, which you are entitled to. The honest truth is that it's all kinds of screwed up from years of mistakes - and there will be no simple solution. People like "simple solutions", which is why you will see a bunch of these petitions floating around that propose a seemingly quick-fix - sure, sounds simple enough, so it must be easy to do, right?

What you have described is a worse cas scenario, a scenario that is carried out each and every day by millions of "Americans".

Part of me says to send the ones that are here illegally home because they broke the law..well it's the politicians fault that the law and the borders have been so lacking over the years, and now it's come to a head, where it is simply impossible to enforce the current laws...so what to do? I don't know, but I can almost 100% guarantee it is going to include allowing illegals that match certain criteria to stay here in the US - doesn't seem quite fair, but logically, the US has no choice.

Jeff

I say send them back to Mexico unless they can mod and or do repairs on my classic Mustang cheaper than my mechanic.

Just kidding.
I was trying to find some way of tieing this thread to the forum in which it is posted.
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cliff88145 said:

I live in southern california it makes me sad to see that a lot of good jobs go to illegal aliens. The ones that people say americans won't or can't do. I see good jobs like carpenters and electricians all done by illegal aliens. That is not bad labor but jobs americans use to do all the time and the money made off of these jobs stayed in america and did not go to mexico. I am a native american but I would always put america first over my nationality!

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Right on. To be an american citizen is to put your country before your nationality. Be proud of your heritage, but if you are an american citizen then your allegiance is to the USA.

Wait!! I have an idea! Let's just take over Mexico and make it the 53rd state. Then they'll all be tax paying citizens without having to leave their homes.

Yeah, Let's send them all back. I'm sure there are thousands of US citizens waiting in line to pick lettuce for $10 a day.

(StDr climbs up on his soapbox and pushes [Rant Mode="ON"]

69Rcode_Mach1 said:

My parents immigrated here as well. They worked hard, and legally went through the processes necessary to come here. They had nothing but after a lot of hard work and schooling they are now banking it and living a very very high quality life.

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Amen, brother! My great, great grandfather came over with parents, brothers, sisters, cousins, etc to escape from poverty and hunger (it was called "The Great Potato Famine" as well as try to improve their families' lives over the Irish sharecropper lifestyle they were living "back home". My great-grandfather was born on Ellis Island while they were waiting to be cleared into the immigration system. Similarly, my wife's grandparents immigrated from Hungary in the 30's, bringing along their 3 young boys. While they were going through the legal immigration process, my wife's grandmother gave birth to her last child - my father-in-law. The major difference between our ancestors and many of the protestors of today is that our families worked within the legal immigration system (then had multiple generations serving in the Armed Services to protect our American way of life); so that today's protestors can sneak in illegally, effectively thmbing their noses at millions of immigrants who thought it was worth jumping through the legal hoops! What a bi***-slap in the legal immigrants' faces!
Frankly, that just pi$$es me off enough that I get emotional (some say "reactionary", "pig-headed" or even "bigoted") about the whole subject. But it even gets better.....

They need to speak OUR language, pay OUR taxes (it isn't fair that they are using our roads, schools, welfare (because they will have many kids here when illegal that will be US citizens), and our soldiers are dying to protect their freedom for free), and put money back into OUR society.

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Absolutely! 8 years ago; I was working in the Engineering Dept of our local hospital. The long-running joke was that one of our crew would make the daily trip to the Nursery window to try and spot any babies that by chance might not be first generation citizens. It was a mean statement to make; but, a very sadly accurate one! Because of my wife's job at the hospital, she's privy to some sad facts. For years, it's been absolutely IL-legal to record any of this kind of data; but unofficial surveys back in the early 90's indicated that children born to non-citizens represented 75-80% percent of the Hospital's Nursery patients - every other kid had parents either living illegally in the United States or parents who drove up while Momma was in labor, just so they could collect welfare in the name of their newborn citizen. This was only from information freely given - bragged about- by Mom's and Dad's
Since one of the local OB's opened a clinic in San Luis, AZ; the rate has dropped to around 60%. Wow, what progress! Maybe I can hope to see the day my annual checks to IRS and the AZ Dept of Revenue will be a little smaller than the ones sitting on my desk as I type this?

Look back at those numbers again.... we've increased all the way up to 40% the number of babies in our Nursery born to US citizens; those who pay the taxes and send our children off to the military to defend this country and this lifestyle we love to have. Anybody care to debate that last point with me?

Sure, "It's complicated"; especially if you're an apologist for this reality (NOT an "opinion", stangonline!). Your "shades of gray" seem a little more black-and-white to me!

[Rant Mode="OFF"]

Unfortunately I don't see this issue getting resolved without some sort of violence. I hate to say that, but people will respond differently and it will get out of hand. I do not like where I see it going. The other problem is that no matter how logical we can make our argument sound Stangdreamin, the libs will always pull out the race card and make us look like racists. These are facts, that I have experienced in my life, I don't get on here and just make up facts that sound good to me. I try to give the most educated responses I can. It all comes down to how hard people are willing to work for it, if they aren't willing to sit down and learn our language, understand our bill of rights and constitution, understand our law system, and pay our taxes the same way every legal immigrant does these things, then I have no sympathy for them whatsoever because they don't want it that bad. It proves my case furthermore when I see them protesting and what not about their situation, and the whole time they are carrying the MEXICAN flag. THIS IS AMERICA!!!! Again it makes me lose more respect for their situation. Anyone can think what they want, but with a logical understanding these facts I am presenting are undisputable.

Thank you StangDreamin I was worried that people would take my responses the wrong way. I am glad that there is someone else with enough understanding to see what I am talking about.

stangonline said:

Part of me says to send the ones that are here illegally home because they broke the law..well it's the politicians fault that the law and the borders have been so lacking over the years, and now it's come to a head, where it is simply impossible to enforce the current laws...so what to do?

Jeff

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It is not the politicians fault or the border patrols. They are doing there job and they are only fixing the problem by deporting them. This whole situation is an attempt to fix the problem if the liberals will allow it. Yes I think that consequences need to be stepped up, and maybe better precautions taken, but our borders will never be impenetrable.

StangDreamin' said:

they were going through the legal immigration process, my wife's grandmother gave birth to her last child - my father-in-law. The major difference between our ancestors and many of the protestors of today is that our families worked within the legal immigration system

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That is the biggest issue that stands out to me. If someone immigrates legally, great. That means they are obligated to pay the same dues and be subjected to the same burdens I am as an American citizen(I said obligated, not forced. I could be leech on the system if I wanted). All these protesters want the world handed to them. How about the thing on the news about the LAU highschool district being pressured to make(I forget what day) a holiday so students can protest without being truant?

I could keep going, but this is a real sore subject with me.

Using prior immigrants as an example of how things should be done just doesn't cut it. Were you aware that like 1/2 of 1 percent of people who went through Ellis Island were sent back to the old world? Don't you think that if you offered those odds of legal immigration today, people would take it?? You bet!

I'm far from sympathetic - I'm a realist.

Stangdreamin' - THe things you mention do happen, and it sucks, but to think that "Americans" don't cheat and take advantage of the system at LEAST as often or to the extent of illegals, costing us $$ would be a mistake.

Ever been to the projects? Kids (paychecks) running around everywhere. SO many people are lazy in this country - and it costs us money...period.

I maintain that it is simply a complicated problem - one which many people would like to make SOUND simple. Try to look at all of the factors involved.


69 - It's not the govts fault? Funny, I learned recently that spending on border patrols (government resposibility) has increased a huge percentage in the last 40 years....which happened to be the exact same percentage of inflation, lol. I dont remember the exact numbers, but basically they said that we are spending now exactly what we were spending 40 years ago to patrol the borders. Who's fault is that?

65ShelbyClone - Yeah, I've been seeing that same crap on the news too. There are always extreme requests in situations like this - really pisses me off. It's counter productive, turning the attention from the real important issues to human greed.

Like I said before, I'm a realist. I agree with every one of your examples of how illegals cost us money - it does happen. All I am saying is that you should open your eyes to all aspects of what is going on. If you make a point with the above examples, you also have to realize that there is at least an equal number of legal citizen who do the exact same thing, and worse. Who do you point the finger at in humanity??..the ones who haven't been offered freedom in the US but try to cheat the system to get it - or the ones who have been offered every opportunity to better themselves, but would rather live off the governments generosity? I'll trade a lazy, living off the system "American" for a hard working illegal any day.

Jeff

Yes I agree with you Stangonline there are plenty of lazy people here, which I also believe that welfare needs to be reformed greatly or dropped altogether but that is another issue (by allowing illegals we will only add to the problem). The point of the matter is that they are ILLEGAL, we have laws and they broke them. And given that they are proven guilty of being illegal they shouldn't even have a say in the matter. They knew what they were doing and they did it anyway, which means they need to accept the consequences of their actions. If I murder someone I can't plead with the judge to let me go because some people have done it and gotten away with it, it doesn't work that way. Same thing here, if anything they put themselves at the mercy of our laws by doing this sort of thing, which in turn is what they deserve, our borders are open to people willing to meet a certain criteria, if they aren't willing to meet that criteria (ie: at the very least speak our freaking language) then they are welcome to come. If not then they need to stay the hell out or suffer the consequences. On top of that people who hire these illegals contribute to the problem as well, and I think that some much stricter consequences are in order for them, and need to be enforced. Stangonline I am not taking hits at you, I love to debate and learn from other people's points of view. If I seem a bit harsh it is because it is hard to articulate this sort of thing properly without sounding like a redneck racist. This is just a very touchy subject and has been bothering me for the 19 years that I have been alive since I was born in the wonderful nation. On top of that I have friends fighting to protect it and am currently training to do so myself and it pisses me off when people side with the opposite side, rather than their nation.

Giving amnesty to illegal aliens will only invite more to unlawfully cross our borders since we will be sending a message to them that if they persist in this illegal activity that they will not be punished but rewarded. What a shame.

69Rcode_Mach1 said:

Yes I agree with you Stangonline there are plenty of lazy people here, which I also believe that welfare needs to be reformed greatly or dropped altogether but that is another issue (by allowing illegals we will only add to the problem). The point of the matter is that they are ILLEGAL, we have laws and they broke them. And given that they are proven guilty of being illegal they shouldn't even have a say in the matter. They knew what they were doing and they did it anyway, which means they need to accept the consequences of their actions. If I murder someone I can't plead with the judge to let me go because some people have done it and gotten away with it, it doesn't work that way. Same thing here, if anything they put themselves at the mercy of our laws by doing this sort of thing, which in turn is what they deserve, our borders are open to people willing to meet a certain criteria, if they aren't willing to meet that criteria (ie: at the very least speak our freaking language) then they are welcome to come. If not then they need to stay the hell out or suffer the consequences. On top of that people who hire these illegals contribute to the problem as well, and I think that some much stricter consequences are in order for them, and need to be enforced. Stangonline I am not taking hits at you, I love to debate and learn from other people's points of view. If I seem a bit harsh it is because it is hard to articulate this sort of thing properly without sounding like a redneck racist. This is just a very touchy subject and has been bothering me for the 19 years that I have been alive since I was born in the wonderful nation. On top of that I have friends fighting to protect it and am currently training to do so myself and it pisses me off when people side with the opposite side, rather than their nation.

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I understand and I really do agree with you. I just see that there are other problems with the situation. Who is going to fill all of these jobs if illegals leave? The unemployment rate is pretty low right now, regardless, most people would make more staying up and living of the government than many illegals make each day. Not to mention costing people a lot more to hire legally - which translates to higher consumer costs on many items. I am not saying "HIRE ILLEGALS, THEY WORK CHEAP", I agree that it is wrong, but simply removing them causes a ton of economic problems.

I didn't mean to sound like I condone breaking the law - I think it sucks, but it's the situation we are in and the longer you look at it, the more you realize what a fix it is.

Cannoball888 said:

Giving amnesty to illegal aliens will only invite more to unlawfully cross our borders since we will be sending a message to them that if they persist in this illegal activity that they will not be punished but rewarded. What a shame.

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I agree, but I bet it will happen. ANY amnesty granted on this scale would absolutely require locking down the borders because of this.

On the flip-side..what if we grant amnesty...do they REALLY want it? It's going to require paying back-taxes and at the wages of most laborers, I doubt they have much left at the end of the month. WHO is really going to sign on to this plan? Hopefully it will weed out the dirt balls from the ones who know how to save a few buck and could actually become productive members of society? Who knows.