I'm now doubting the Kenne

Shaolin Crane · Aug 7, 2009

Notchbck93 said:
I'm with you on the added nose weight.

Here's the bottom line bragging that you hang at 9" doesn't mean squat if you can't use it for getting down to business.

A dedicated road coarse car; if it were mine, would have the biggest brakes I could squeeze on the front and rear of it with adjustability, full suspension work with all urethane CC plates, most-likely all coilovers, major chassis stiffening/bracing both front and rear towers... Moly full cage with non removable side bars and goes through the firewall to the front towers, overkill for a cooling system, torque box kit, a baffled fuel tank/cell, best rubber on the lightest forged rims I could buy and then after all of this, I would look into building some power. Don't forget the lightweight seats with current 5 point harness.

Foxes are nose heavy. Manual rack, manual brakes, K member and a-arms, alum heads electic pump, fans, high rev clutch, quick release quad, TKO, alum shaft with two safety loops, and build an engine that will be in the 3500-7500 power range and tune an exhaust to compliment it.

There's plenty that I have left off, but all the power in the world won't compliment a poor chassis on a road course.

So I guess the real question is, do you want to brag about big hp, or respectable lap times?

i would say with my car i hit a very large amount of those, true i dont have a cage yet but i want the car to be closer to finished so i dont have to contort around a cage, i have the largest brakes i could possibly fit on the front, many guys have tried to fit the larger 14" brake packages with the 6.48" backspaced rims and they dont fit, i do have some brake ideas in the works but currently do not have them installed on the car, dont need a torque box kit as the torque boxes are no longer used with the 3 link, hoosier road racing 275's sit on all corners, i disagree with the manual rack (sorry my preference) also have coil overs and subframes PHB, STB, K-member, basically if MM made it its on my car, now we are getting down to the engine, im not sure if your post was idrected to everyone, Chris or myself but i think so far im on the right track

srtthis · Aug 7, 2009

what size KB are you running? id give jim@kb a call and see if there is a way to run one of the 2.8H's on your blower set up...

Shaolin Crane · Aug 7, 2009

srtthis said:
what size KB are you running? id give jim@kb a call and see if there is a way to run one of the 2.8H's on your blower set up...

not running anything yet, this is all precognitive work towards building my beast of an engine

NIKwoaC · Aug 7, 2009

90lxcoupe said:
because race fuel burns slower than normal fuel, and so does methanol. and too cool of an intake charge is not neccesarily a good thing. You can only run so much timing in a motor. There was an article i was reading in MM&FF a while back and when they switched to an air to air intercooler they were having preignition problems because the air temps were too low

theres no need on that setup to run race gas and methanol, if the motor was 11:1 compression running boost i could see mabye doing it, but this is nothing crazy, either a mix of pump/meth, or just straight race gas would work just fine

Yea, I'd like to see this article too. By that logic, a car that was on the ragged edge in summer when ambient is 80-90 degrees would be having detonation problems in the fall when ambient air temps are down to 50-60 degrees. Seems counter intuitive, and it also seems that too much timing was the culprit, not necessarily too cold of intake air temps.

BTW, preignition isn't the same as detonation.

rbonella · Aug 7, 2009

sounds like you have it all figured out, what's the thread for?

Shaolin Crane · Aug 7, 2009

rbonella said:
sounds like you have it all figured out, what's the thread for?

i didnt have it figured out, i really really really wanted to run a kenne bell and get my numbers, still do, if there is a way to do it im gonna

Rookie71 · Aug 8, 2009

Isn't 750rwhp in a road race prep'd fox body a little much to even be useful?

rbonella · Aug 8, 2009

Is this a road car built to handle the twisties, or are you going to race open road racing? Track days, autocrosses? I guess i,m confused on what they car is for, still street legal? Many classes have horsepower limits/per weight of car. Still, John Buscema goes 205mph down the straights in his T-trimmed, 550hp small block and is highly competitve in ironhorse and SCCA events. It sounds like you have all your ducks in a row, but that damn kennebell does not make any sense? I get the PD blowers and how they feel. I had a 2004 Lightning that ran 11.40 with the factory Eaton. There's nothing like instant boost, gobs of torque...I get that. But not on a road course. My dad runs in the corvette racing series here in the midwest and most of those guys are running pd Magnuson blowers with great success, but every mustang out there competing run either higher compression na strokers, or centri blowers. No One has over 600hp, there's a point where too much horsepower can make your times slower. You start going into turns way too hot. Centri blowers will always be more trackable than instant boost wipples. Progressive powerbands out of the turns is where its all at. Plus, you should NEVER be @ 2000 rpm. You should keep your motor winding at all times, hence the constant ring and pinion changes for different tracks. 4500-7000rpm always. With that in mind, the wipple is already out. A nice vortech with an aftercooler would be spot on. Plus, since you like to wear your horsepower number on your sleeve, the vortech will make more power than a kennebell. I know you won't take any of the advise, but good luck to ya

90lxcoupe · Aug 8, 2009

NikwoaC said:
Yea, I'd like to see this article too. By that logic, a car that was on the ragged edge in summer when ambient is 80-90 degrees would be having detonation problems in the fall when ambient air temps are down to 50-60 degrees. Seems counter intuitive, and it also seems that too much timing was the culprit, not necessarily too cold of intake air temps.

BTW, preignition isn't the same as detonation.

i realize that preignition and detonation are two different things

ok so i read the article last night, it was actually in the brand new issue of MM&FF, article was called quest for 9's or something... they put a precision pt1000 A/W intake on a DOHC mustang and said that they had the inlet temps so low that it would cause a missfire, so i was wrong about the preignition thing, my bad

Bullitt 5094's 9-Second Ride - Standard Aftercooler - Muscle Mustang & Fast Fords

NIKwoaC · Aug 8, 2009

90lxcoupe said:
i realize that preignition and detonation are two different things

ok so i read the article last night, it was actually in the brand new issue of MM&FF, article was called quest for 9's or something... they put a precision pt1000 A/W intake on a DOHC mustang and said that they had the inlet temps so low that it would cause a missfire, so i was wrong about the preignition thing, my bad

Bullitt 5094's 9-Second Ride - Standard Aftercooler - Muscle Mustang & Fast Fords

Ahh, typical magazine article. Talk and talk and talk about the product, but just wave your hand at the real technical stuff and don't go into detail about the problems you encountered. What do they exactly mean by "misfire"? How exactly did the colder intake charge cause a misfire?

I want to say that I didn't mean to sound condescending about the preignition comment. I was powering down my computer at work, and in a hurry to finish my post and get out the door.

Back to the Kenne Bell- I did the numbers real quick on that 508rwhp car they talk about on the KB website. It was at 9.2 psi. If you upped it to 18, it seems like it would have made roughly 690, of course assuming theoretically perfect conditions (which do not happen, especially at the ragged edge of the supercharger's max potential). I know that was on a 302, but I don't think a KB will ever make 750rwhp, if even 700. If you're serious about 750, forget the twin screw all together, you're going to need something with an impeller.

BTW, their power ratings are all over the place on the website. I see that by the "standard" kit image it says "850HP rating", while just below it says "300-650HP range. Varies with boost level." Flip over to the Blowzilla/Flowzilla page and it reads "675HP" at the top of the text, but then states "785HP rating" in a couple places below in smaller text. WTF is that about?

Rookie71 · Aug 8, 2009

If you want to get really crazy, I would say go 408W+ on the motor. The chasis dyno chart below is a dart aluminum blocked 434W with TEA 240cc Highports and a solid roller. Motor was set up for road racing. Plenty of torque there I think.

2000xp8 · Aug 8, 2009

NikwoaC said:
Back to the Kenne Bell- I did the numbers real quick on that 508rwhp car they talk about on the KB website. It was at 9.2 psi. If you upped it to 18, it seems like it would have made roughly 690, of course assuming theoretically perfect conditions (which do not happen, especially at the ragged edge of the supercharger's max potential). I know that was on a 302, but I don't think a KB will ever make 750rwhp, if even 700. If you're serious about 750, forget the twin screw all together, you're going to need something with an impeller.

BTW, their power ratings are all over the place on the website. I see that by the "standard" kit image it says "850HP rating", while just below it says "300-650HP range. Varies with boost level." Flip over to the Blowzilla/Flowzilla page and it reads "675HP" at the top of the text, but then states "785HP rating" in a couple places below in smaller text. WTF is that about?

This article pretty much says it all. KB pretty much tells you that 550rwhp is the max. I don't see where the article notes rw dyno or flywheel.
http://www.kennebell.net/techinfo/ford-techinfo/blowzilla-flowzilla.pdf
Basically they got 14 psi out of it on a 349 or 351 with afr 185's.
I'm sure 18 psi is possible on a stock engine, but think of how fast it would really have to turn to get to another 4 psi out of a 347, there might not even be a pulley that small.

Shaolin Crane · Aug 8, 2009

rbonella said:
Is this a road car built to handle the twisties, or are you going to race open road racing? Track days, autocrosses? I guess i,m confused on what they car is for, still street legal? Many classes have horsepower limits/per weight of car. Still, John Buscema goes 205mph down the straights in his T-trimmed, 550hp small block and is highly competitve in ironhorse and SCCA events. It sounds like you have all your ducks in a row, but that damn kennebell does not make any sense? I get the PD blowers and how they feel. I had a 2004 Lightning that ran 11.40 with the factory Eaton. There's nothing like instant boost, gobs of torque...I get that. But not on a road course. My dad runs in the corvette racing series here in the midwest and most of those guys are running pd Magnuson blowers with great success, but every mustang out there competing run either higher compression na strokers, or centri blowers. No One has over 600hp, there's a point where too much horsepower can make your times slower. You start going into turns way too hot. Centri blowers will always be more trackable than instant boost wipples. Progressive powerbands out of the turns is where its all at. Plus, you should NEVER be @ 2000 rpm. You should keep your motor winding at all times, hence the constant ring and pinion changes for different tracks. 4500-7000rpm always. With that in mind, the wipple is already out. A nice vortech with an aftercooler would be spot on. Plus, since you like to wear your horsepower number on your sleeve, the vortech will make more power than a kennebell. I know you won't take any of the advise, but good luck to ya

no what i ment was if there is a way to run a kenne bell i would, such as using say a 2.8 charger in the 5.0 kit, yes its true i want big power numbers, this is a car that will have all the setup for agressive track days but honestly may only get to go a few times a year with my ever dwindling schedual, even now i can only see maybe 4 track days a year, when i become a sheriff probably even less time, car will still be street legalish and will see a few car shows but thats about it, but if it makes anyone feel better im probably going with a vortech

Shaolin Crane · Aug 8, 2009

NikwoaC said:
BTW, their power ratings are all over the place on the website. I see that by the "standard" kit image it says "850HP rating", while just below it says "300-650HP range. Varies with boost level." Flip over to the Blowzilla/Flowzilla page and it reads "675HP" at the top of the text, but then states "785HP rating" in a couple places below in smaller text. WTF is that about?

they're going by whats the blower is capable of spinning at, such as in a perfect world a bullet should travel for miles and miles but doesnt because of physics, just like my truck could tow 36k pounds but only in a straight line forget actually towing something that big on trips

NIKwoaC · Aug 9, 2009

2000xp8 said:
This article pretty much says it all. KB pretty much tells you that 550rwhp is the max. I don't see where the article notes rw dyno or flywheel.
http://www.kennebell.net/techinfo/ford-techinfo/blowzilla-flowzilla.pdf
Basically they got 14 psi out of it on a 349 or 351 with afr 185's.
I'm sure 18 psi is possible on a stock engine, but think of how fast it would really have to turn to get to another 4 psi out of a 347, there might not even be a pulley that small.

Well there ya go, that article straight up says that max rpm for their supercharger is "5500-6000 max". No sense in putting it on an engine that will see 7K, much less a stroker.

Shaolin Crane said:
no what i ment was if there is a way to run a kenne bell i would, such as using say a 2.8 charger in the 5.0 kit, yes its true i want big power numbers, this is a car that will have all the setup for agressive track days but honestly may only get to go a few times a year with my ever dwindling schedual, even now i can only see maybe 4 track days a year, when i become a sheriff probably even less time, car will still be street legalish and will see a few car shows but thats about it, but if it makes anyone feel better im probably going with a vortech

That's an interesting thought. I'd like to see a 2.8 KB on a pushrod.

Gearbanger 101 · Aug 9, 2009

NikwoaC said:
That's an interesting thought. I'd like to see a 2.8 KB on a pushrod.

Aside from the fact that even just the driving around ACT even under vacuum would be through the roof without some sort of aftercooler to control them, the current lower manifold offerings (stock or GT40) wouldn't even come close to being able to move the volume of airflow a 2.8L would support. I doubt you’d even come close to getting the blower into its efficiency range without having it all stack up on the intake side.....even with the lower manifold ported.

I suspect it would be great for bragging about the fact that you've got a 2.8L under the hood, but little else.

Shaolin Crane · Aug 9, 2009

Gearbanger 101 said:
Aside from the fact that even just the driving around ACT even under vacuum would be through the roof without some sort of aftercooler to control them, the current lower manifold offerings (stock or GT40) wouldn't even come close to being able to move the volume of airflow a 2.8L would support. I doubt you’d even come close to getting the blower into its efficiency range without having it all stack up on the intake side.....even with the lower manifold ported.

I suspect it would be great for bragging about the fact that you've got a 2.8L under the hood, but little else.

i simply ment in a perfect world where everything was able to work properly such as an aftercooler, some sort of massive lower, and the 2.8 so it could run efficiently, but i know it will probably never happen and running a S/C all togethor could not happen either, its the plan for now but we all know how that goes

90mustangGT · Aug 9, 2009

Okay, with that kind of blower you might not see the nice dyno numbers but there are many performance advantages of the roots/twin screw type superchargers and the reason why the top racers often choose them. Instant and consistant boost right off idle to the redline, and consistant power through the powerband. Also you can modulate the power much easier with the gas pedal.

Shaolin Crane · Aug 9, 2009

Rookie71 said:
If you want to get really crazy, I would say go 408W+ on the motor. The chasis dyno chart below is a dart aluminum blocked 434W with TEA 240cc Highports and a solid roller. Motor was set up for road racing. Plenty of torque there I think.

i'll say it again, im not scrapping my current engine, that would be a huge waste of money

Shaolin Crane · Aug 9, 2009

90mustangGT said:
Okay, with that kind of blower you might not see the nice dyno numbers but there are many performance advantages of the roots/twin screw type superchargers and the reason why the top racers often choose them. Instant and consistant boost right off idle to the redline, and consistant power through the powerband. Also you can modulate the power much easier with the gas pedal.

i know, i'll let you know more about what i choose when i can see some dyno number of what 92rocp is turning with his aftercooled kenne he very well may be around the 500hp mark

I'm now doubting the Kenne

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