Installing a new Clutch. What should be

Steve69 · Jan 23, 2006

Greased? I have some Lithium Grease and should I put any on the the
input shaft where the clutch disc rides. On the shaft that the throwout
bearing rides?

Thanks

jcode68 · Jan 23, 2006

You should put a little grease (not sure if lithium is the best kind) on the input shaft where the throwout bearing rides. Can't sress enough, just a very thin layer all around it. Anything substantial will/could contaminate the clutch disc and result in early failure and poor performance.

65ShelbyClone · Jan 23, 2006

I'll back that up. I've also heard to put just a very small amount where the TOB touches the fingers. I used bearing grease. I dont know if lithium is tough enough to last.

Steve69 · Jan 23, 2006

Wheel Bearing Grease? How much play should there be at the input shaft?
seems to move around a bit.

Thanks

Steve69 · Jan 23, 2006

ANYONE ON THE INPUT SPLINE
THANKS

hrspwrjunkie · Jan 23, 2006

Most bearings come pre-greased and no added grease is needed. If the bearing is not pre-greased, run a thin amount of high-pressure grease like disc brake bearing grease or even better, synthetic, into the grease retaining groove inside the bearing's ID.

No grease should go on the input shaft or anywhere else inside the housing except the clutch fork and its pivot.

You should also replace your pressure plate & flywheel hardware with appropriate hardware like that supplied through ARP. Factory Ford (Place bolts) with the crown-style head can be reused provided the threads are clean and flawless. If not, replace those with the appropriate bolts as well...and make sure those threads and their mating threads are clean and then use Loctite red on them. If the bolts are not place bolts (with flawless threads) then replace them as they are not as stress and vibration (read fatigue) resistant as place bolts and can easily fail when used again. If you use the original place bolts, don't use a washer with them, they were not designed to be used with washers...they have flexible heads and are designed to be used alone. That said, I like to replace pressure plate bolts regardless of design and apparent condition as they are small and under some pretty considerable stress and fatigue...I really like my legs.

Also, I would advise against using inferior bolts such as "Grade 8" hardware & auto store bolts...they are not always manufactured to spec and can fail unexpectedly.

Ryan

Steve69 said:
ANYONE ON THE INPUT SPLINE
THANKS

Steve69 · Jan 23, 2006

Thanks for the input

I went with the Hardware Grade 8 bolts and washers. Hope it holds
together.

Steve69

D.Hearne · Jan 23, 2006

I put a thin film on both the input shaft spines and the bearing retainer sleeve the T/O bearing slides on. And I've never had problems with it contaminating the clutch. In service, I've had some oil get into the bell from leaking valve covers and it's never bothered the clutch either. The whole assembly spins so fast that it never reaches the clutch lining, centrifugal force flings it onto the interior of the bellhousing. As for the bolts, you're just as likely to get bad bolts from Ford or ARP as anywhere else. I've used grade 8 & 9's for the pressure plate for years without failures. These were purchased thru a local bolt supply store though and not thru the local hardware chains.

hrspwrjunkie · Jan 24, 2006

Actually, that's not true. Standard SAE graded bolts are counterfieted over seas and sold here in the states having not been made to SAE specs. ARP and Ford have higher standards for their bolts. Their bolts are also specially designed for there specific taskes, which in the case of pressure plate and flywheel retention means the ability to withstand excessive shock and vibration for extended life spans. I know that Formula One crews use the Ford flywheel bolts specifically because they can withstand excessive amounts of shock and vibration without fatigue failure.

As far as grease and oil contamination on the clutch goes, you may not have run into it, but I have. Especially if it gets contaminated while really hot like during hard launching with lots of feathering or it gets contaminated during brake in when the clutch surface hasn't hardened and it can soak in. That said, for the most part, tiny amounts of contamination will simply burn off.

Ryan

D.Hearne said:
I put a thin film on both the input shaft spines and the bearing retainer sleeve the T/O bearing slides on. And I've never had problems with it contaminating the clutch. In service, I've had some oil get into the bell from leaking valve covers and it's never bothered the clutch either. The whole assembly spins so fast that it never reaches the clutch lining, centrifugal force flings it onto the interior of the bellhousing. As for the bolts, you're just as likely to get bad bolts from Ford or ARP as anywhere else. I've used grade 8 & 9's for the pressure plate for years without failures. These were purchased thru a local bolt supply store though and not thru the local hardware chains.

D.Hearne · Jan 24, 2006

I've had Ford O.E. bolts break too. They're marginally of better quality than anything else. With the world economy the way it is today, you're as likely to end up with bad bolts from any source. The pencil pusher buying them, doesn't care where they came from, in many cases they're shopping for price, not quality. I've also heard stories of bad ARP's too. Unless someone actually stress tests every bolt in a lot, there's no guarantee every one will perform as intended. The only time I've ever had oil contaminate a clutch was when there was a massive oil leak from the rear main, or once on a 390 I had put together, the rear cam plug popped out of the block. In that instance, there was something wrong with the block itself, it did the same thing later on after I reassembled it to use in a fork lift. ( yea FE's were used in those too )

strange65 · Jan 24, 2006

I question the use of costly ARP bolts also. If they are strengthen and hardened using them on 40 year old threads is inviting trouble. The diffrence in strength, plus the fact that you would not be able to go with the "new" torque makes it pointless anyway. The head bolts would be the only thing I would change .

65ShelbyClone · Jan 24, 2006

hrspwrjunkie said:
Actually, that's not true. Standard SAE graded bolts are counterfieted over seas and sold here in the states having not been made to SAE specs.

I can actually vouch for that. I got a cheap set of PAW-brand head bolts that had the 6 hash marks on top, indicating grade 8. I went to install them, and they just wouldn't torque up to 65 lb-ft. I hadnt installed heads before, but this didnt seem right. I kept going, thinking it was maybe the gasket compressing......until a bolt twisted completely off. Another one elongated at the threads maybe 1/8-3/16". I removed them all and ended up getting ARPs. $30 for the cheapies, 45 for the ARPs. In an effort to save $15, I ended up spending $45 MORE. That was the last lesson for me about trying to save money with cheap parts. I still have the bad bolts is anyone wants a pic.

Grade 8 bolts are typically 150,000 psi. The lowest ARPs are usually at least 180,000psi, which puts them in the grade 10 category or higher. An F1 team using production bolts? With multi-million dollar budgets and 900+hp engines spinning 20,000rpm? I find that unlikely.

Steve69 · Jan 24, 2006

You guys Scared me with the Hardware Store Grade 8 Bolts. I ordered
some ARP bolts this morning. Now Ill have to pull the clutch off and try
again. After looking at the clutch and the bolts I beleive I figured out
my Clutch Judder when taking starting off. The Pressure Plate Bolts Were
1 Inch long and Mr Gasket Bolts. The problem was they were to long and
when I Torqued them to 20 Pounds they were not making the Pressure plate
completely tight on the flywheel. I figure I dont want to have to do this
again for a very long time.

Thanks for the input

Steve69

65ShelbyClone · Jan 24, 2006

The Mr Gasket bolts were probably fine as far as integrity. As far as the length, did they have washers under the heads?

Steve69 · Jan 24, 2006

They Did have lock washers. When I torqued my new pressure plate with
the Mr Gasket bolts the washer were slightley loose. I also noticed on the
old pressure plate alot of scratching where the the bolts bolted to flywheel
like the pressure plate had moved or shifted on the flywheel.

hrspwrjunkie · Jan 24, 2006

Well, considering Carroll Smith was a well known and highly sought after racing engineer and worked in Formula One, and he preferred, without question, the use of the Ford place bolts, which he specifically specified for his flywheels and ring gears in that class of racing states otherwise. Even going so far as to use the specific Ford part number (B8AZ-6379-A) when recommending the bolts for the Hewland transaxle ring gears. If you need confirmation, you can check out his book on Fasteners titled "Carroll Smith's Nuts, Bolts, Fasteners and Plumbing Handbook." I highly recommend reading it if anyone is serious about building or repairing performance automobiles. Or any automobile for that matter.

Ryan

65ShelbyClone said:
I can actually vouch for that. I got a cheap set of PAW-brand head bolts that had the 6 hash marks on top, indicating grade 8. I went to install them, and they just wouldn't torque up to 65 lb-ft. I hadnt installed heads before, but this didnt seem right. I kept going, thinking it was maybe the gasket compressing......until a bolt twisted completely off. Another one elongated at the threads maybe 1/8-3/16". I removed them all and ended up getting ARPs. $30 for the cheapies, 45 for the ARPs. In an effort to save $15, I ended up spending $45 MORE. That was the last lesson for me about trying to save money with cheap parts. I still have the bad bolts is anyone wants a pic.

Grade 8 bolts are typically 150,000 psi. The lowest ARPs are usually at least 180,000psi, which puts them in the grade 10 category or higher. An F1 team using production bolts? With multi-million dollar budgets and 900+hp engines spinning 20,000rpm? I find that unlikely.

hrspwrjunkie · Jan 24, 2006

One of the leading engineering minds in all of automobile racing would tend to disagree with you (if he were still alive), at least his remaining words do. See my above response regarding the use of Ford bolts on Hewland transaxle ring gears. As well, it has been my experience that the Ford place bolts are very good pieces of engineering and I would still use a bolt specifically designed for use with a pressure plate and flywheel over a generic bolt as the heads are built to be more vibration and shock resistant.

Ryan

D.Hearne said:
I've had Ford O.E. bolts break too. They're marginally of better quality than anything else. With the world economy the way it is today, you're as likely to end up with bad bolts from any source. The pencil pusher buying them, doesn't care where they came from, in many cases they're shopping for price, not quality. I've also heard stories of bad ARP's too. Unless someone actually stress tests every bolt in a lot, there's no guarantee every one will perform as intended. The only time I've ever had oil contaminate a clutch was when there was a massive oil leak from the rear main, or once on a 390 I had put together, the rear cam plug popped out of the block. In that instance, there was something wrong with the block itself, it did the same thing later on after I reassembled it to use in a fork lift. ( yea FE's were used in those too )

hrspwrjunkie · Jan 24, 2006

It's good you decided to use appropriate fasteners. It's better to be safe than sorry because a spun up flywheel or pressure plate coming loose or shattering will act just like a buzz saw or heavy grenade shrapnel (respectively). To each their own, but for me, it is always safety first.

Ryan

Steve69 said:
They Did have lock washers. When I torqued my new pressure plate with
the Mr Gasket bolts the washer were slightley loose. I also noticed on the
old pressure plate alot of scratching where the the bolts bolted to flywheel
like the pressure plate had moved or shifted on the flywheel.

Rusty67 · Jan 24, 2006

strange65 said:
I question the use of costly ARP bolts also. If they are strengthen and hardened using them on 40 year old threads is inviting trouble. The diffrence in strength, plus the fact that you would not be able to go with the "new" torque makes it pointless anyway. The head bolts would be the only thing I would change .

For 10 bux when it comes to a set of ARP clutch bolts whats the fuss about ? Buy yerself new ones and be sure. If you are concerned about the metal being weakened after 40 years... then helicoil the threads.....

And now a little bit of wisdom from the school of hard knocks. If you have a late modle flywheel, the threads are METRIC and ARP DOES NOT make a bolt kit for this. Don't ask but this is why I know heli-coils in a flywheel work..... my late model flywheel now sports american threads.

hrspwrjunkie · Jan 24, 2006

That's a good point. But if you call ARP and ask nicely, they will tell you they just came out with the proper sized pressure plate bolts in a Honda application

Ryan

Rusty67 said:
For 10 bux when it comes to a set of ARP clutch bolts whats the fuss about ? Buy yerself new ones and be sure. If you are concerned about the metal being weakened after 40 years... then helicoil the threads.....

And now a little bit of wisdom from the school of hard knocks. If you have a late modle flywheel, the threads are METRIC and ARP DOES NOT make a bolt kit for this. Don't ask but this is why I know heli-coils in a flywheel work..... my late model flywheel now sports american threads.

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